Why no eastern/samurai themed army?

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**MarbosMiyagi**

I was playing Total War: Shogun 2 this morning (awesome btw) and it occurred to me as odd that there is no Samurai/eastern themed army. I'm surprised that the GW hasn't taken advantage of an interesting and unique period in martial history. The fluff is thereish already (Cathay) and if it were based loosely on Chinese history you'd have all the unit variety you could ever need. What does dakka think? Should there be an eastern army? Would you play it?

**chaos0xomega**

The Ogre's are about as close you're going to get at this point, short of the release of a new army. There are eastern minis out there in production (dunno about plastics). Nothing stopping you from doing an empire or brettonian army with 3rd party models to make such a themed force.

**kenshin620**

Well I kinda already mentioned about extra human factions in this topic

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/365477.page

Basically I think 2 major points stick out

1. What would these factions bring to the table thats new (harder than you think unless you make crazy rules)
2. How would you balance them to all the other factions that have a hard time balancing themselves

But yea GW wise you have ogre models, Hob goblin models, and technically I guess some clan eshin models that are eastern themed and nothing more. Maybe there were some old cathay models but I'm not sure. Nothing on Ind or Nippon human wise. You could always as said take some of the human rules (or if you're creative some of the others) and use some 3rd party models.

**Ralin Givens**

Your welcome
http://battlereporter.freeforums.org/cathay-f87.html?sid=c8d5882d3a713d306350629fe7889ccb

http://battlereporter.freeforums.org/nippon-f90.html?sid=c8d5882d3a713d306350629fe7889ccb

**GoldenKaos**

Hasn't GW basically said something along the lines of 'If you wanna make a Cathay/Araby/Tilea/whatever you want army, use Bret or Empire rules' at some point?
Besides, considering that Warhammer is vaguely centered on the Empire, which is Germany (Holy Roman Empire really), well Eastern dudes are far too far away from Europe for them to be around. The humans are going to be Europeans for the most part, seeing how all the countries in the Old World correspond to a real life European nation. Estalia- Spain, Brettonia- France, Tilea- Italy, Albion- Britain, Sartosa- Sicily and so on. Warhammer is very western style. Maybe some Eastern stuff is in the DE or HE symbols, and the Ogres are mongols.

**Andrew1975**

There were rules in my old, I wanna sat 2nd ed Warhammer armies book. Could be a base to start from if you were really interested. They had some cool war machines I think.

**UNREALPwnage**

There is one already it is called Nippon and it IS legal at some tournements.

**Kroothawk**

Beside the large Fan-army books mentioned above, High Elves are another alternative for a "count as" list: An army dominated by elite fast swordsmen, the bulk formed by spearmen (ashigaru) or bowmen.

**Grey Templar**

there are eastern empires in the fluff, but GW hasn't ever released rules for them.

likely because a Cathey army would be too much like the Empire(humans with some CC troops and some Gunpowder weapons) with more limited magic(Light and Dark=Yin and Yang)

Ind has more potential, but there isn't as much interest in it.

they were kicking around the idea for a Kislev army, but it never bore fruit. another heavily cavelry based army(Bretts and Marauder horsemen WoC) they actually did make some models for them though for use in the Dogs of War book.

Dogs of War was the place where the warhammer world was expanded. its kind of a shame they dropped it(but from a balance perspective it was a good call)

there are a few Fandexs for Cathey and Ind floating around out there.

**Omegus**

GoldenKaos wrote:Hasn't GW basically said something along the lines of 'If you wanna make a Cathay/Araby/Tilea/whatever you want army, use Bret or Empire rules' at some point?
Besides, considering that Warhammer is vaguely centered on the Empire, which is Germany (Holy Roman Empire really), well Eastern dudes are far too far away from Europe for them to be around. The humans are going to be Europeans for the most part, seeing how all the countries in the Old World correspond to a real life European nation. Estalia- Spain, Brettonia- France, Tilea- Italy, Albion- Britain, Sartosa- Sicily and so on. Warhammer is very western style. Maybe some Eastern stuff is in the DE or HE symbols, and the Ogres are mongols.

Dark Elves are Canadian, and don't you forget it, eh?

**kenshin620**

Omegus wrote:
Dark Elves are Canadian, and don't you forget it, eh?

Hmm TV Tropes told me that aside from their geographical location, they're post viking Scandinavian. But it is a wiki so I dont know where that source is from!

Fantasy Counterpart Culture: The developers admit the Empire is the Holy Roman Empire in a fantasy setting. Bretonnia is Medieval France mixed with the Arthurian legends. Then there is the island nation of Nippon (take a wild guess on who they are supposed to be)... The Lizardmen culture is modeled after Aztec culture, complete with Ancient Astronauts, while the foggy moors of the island of Albion are home to a Celt culture. The Hung tribes are Mongols, Ogres are humongous Mongols, Hobgoblins are dire wolf-riding greenskin Mongols, Kislev is generically Eastern Europe with a good bit of Russia and Polish heavy cavalry, and Estalia and Tilea are Spain and Italy respectively. There is also Araby for a pastiche of the Middle East, and somewhere out east the mystical empire of Cathay, which is China.

Nehekhara is Egypt, except that pretty much all the humans who used to live there have died in a magical plague and the Pharaos have all come out of their pyramids to rule over a kingdom of shambling undead.

An obvious reference is Sylvania, which of course is based on Transylvania. Is there any reason not to believe that is the official home land of the Vampire Counts? In fact, if you examine the map of the Warhammer World, you will notice that it is, in fact, a Fantasy replica of Earth, with most of the cultures being corresponding to their real-life counterparts in location.

The Chaos Dwarfs are a mix of Ancient Persia and Prussia located in Mordor. Actually they are more like Babylonians and Assyrians.
The High Elves are modelled after Byzantium

Norsca is the Viking era Scandinavia, while Dark Elves are the Medieval Scandinavia after the Viking period.

Orcs and Goblins are a generic Dark Ages Germanic barbarian warband army

Skaven are modelled after Ottoman Turkish infantry without their cavalry. They just cannot kill all the bashi-bazoukis!

Wood Elves are a later Byzantine army, relying on their Bretonnian allied knights for some really heavy punch.

**Grey Templar**

kenshin620 wrote:
Omegus wrote:
Dark Elves are Canadian, and don't you forget it, eh?

Hmm TV Tropes told me that aside from their geographical location, they're post viking Scandinavian. But it is a wiki so I dont know where that source is from!

DEs don't look anything like post viking scandinavian.

I have no idea where that idea came from.

they have more of an east indies pirate/BDSM thing going on(more obvious in 40k, but still)

**Maj. Kolbak**

There was an army profile in a WD, the number escapes me, that showcased a Cathay army based on the Empire book. Use of handgunners, great swords, knights and the rocket batteries IIRC

**Kura**

Grey Templar wrote:
kenshin620 wrote:
Omegus wrote:
Dark Elves are Canadian, and don't you forget it, eh?

Hmm TV Tropes told me that aside from their geographical location, they're post viking Scandinavian. But it is a wiki so I dont know where that source is from!

DEs don't look anything like post viking scandinavian.

I have no idea where that idea came from.

they have more of an east indies pirate/BDSM thing going on(more obvious in 40k, but still)

DE are americans, that one is obvious. Pretty certain that we have removed ourselves from the children-of-ishawealth.

**jjdiffley**

There are two unofficial army books out there (for WHFB v7) regarding Cathay and Nippon, respectively. Try http://www.scribd.com/ for them and other non-official armies based on places shown on the "Map of the Worlde"

As for Samurai figures, I'd use either West Wind or Perry miniatures myself.

John

**giant stegadon**

I get the point the OP is saying. It does seem a little surprising GW doesn't have a more explicitly themed Oriental army simply due to the popularity of Anime and all that stuff.

In the end though I think it would detract too much from what they already have. Especially since OK & Chaos are all separate now they have plenty of armies to support.

Also always thought the new DE models kinda skew a little Asian looking anyway.

**Grey Templar**

Kura wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
kenshin620 wrote:
Omegus wrote:
Dark Elves are Canadian, and don't you forget it, eh?

Hmm TV Tropes told me that aside from their geographical location, they're post viking Scandinavian. But it is a wiki so I dont know where that source is from!

DEs don't look anything like post viking scandinavian.

I have no idea where that idea came from.

they have more of an east indies pirate/BDSM thing going on(more obvious in 40k, but still)

DE are americans, that one is obvious. Pretty certain that we have removed ourselves from the children-of-ishawealth.

Aside from being in North America i really can't see any parallells(unless there is some dark british joke I can't see)

I think America is represented by the Empire settlements along the east coast.

**Ugly Green Trog**

There has been a kislev army at some point, I've seen the book and the models at my local gaming club.

**Platuan4th**

Grey Templar wrote:there are eastern empires in the fluff, but GW hasn't ever released rules for them.

Both Cathay and Nippon had rules in 2nd(and IIRC, 3rd).

They even had a decent sized selection of models.

**Grey Templar**

really?

the only models i have ever seen are some Kislev lancers and Kurgan raiders.

**Platuan4th**

Grey Templar wrote:really?

the only models i have ever seen are some Kislev lancers and Kurgan raiders.

They were known as Oriental Heroes(back before they really started to define the armies). Mostly, Samurai, Ninja, a rocket launcher, and the Chinese guardian dogs.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
For anyone interested, a complete Nippon Rocket Crew set is on ebay right now:

http://cgi.ebay.com/OOP-Citadel-Warhammer-Empire-C22-Nippon-Rocket-Launcher-/320722027448?pt=UK_Toys_Wargames_RL&hash=item4aac85c3b8

I'd buy it(for my Skaven) if I had the cash.

**Ralin Givens**

I have the rocket-launcher without the crew

**Bastion of Mediocrity**

TBH my gaming crew (I guess with GW I am supposed to say "club") always wonder why GW is so limiting on army books/codices. Frankly the idea of the games was to sell models right? And most people who play will agree that game balance does not really seem to be the top priority.

Why not put out Estallia or Tilea army books? They already have the molds, right? Dogs of War FTW. If selling models is the goal, the army does not really need to be all that different from Empire. Take some of the good ideas from Dogs of War and remove some of the special rules from Empire (all the Sigmarite stuff) and you have an army that will play different with models already available or at least easily converted (unlike the Beastmen monsters that are hard to make).

So I wish they made more rule books not less. I would love Araby even more than Cathy. And Ind would be the hotness with Elephants, Monkey-People, gurkas (sp?), etc. Heck, I would even love to see fishmen (if done Cthulu style) and don't get me started on Chaos Dwarves (although I think calling them Fire or Furnace Dwarves would be cooler).

So more books please, more world development without really needing huge, mega minature releases would warm the cockles of my little heart.

Oh, and If you are making a Nippon "counts as" army, check out the models for Legends of the Five Rings, very nice.

**Grey Templar**

Warhammer Forge is doing a Chaos Dwarf Army Book. Its basically Dwarves with Magic and some auxiliary races. the models are pretty sick too.

**Trondheim**

I say use either the Haradrim moddels or Rhun models for LOTR, they should work. it would look good, and also they would stick out from the crowd. Use Haradrim for rank and file, and Rhun for elites.

If you make a army like that I would really like to see it.

**Skriker**

Trondheim wrote:I say use either the Haradrim moddels or Rhun models for LOTR, they should work. it would look good, and also they would stick out from the crowd. Use Haradrim for rank and file, and Rhun for elites.

If you make a army like that I would really like to see it.

Only problem with this is that you are more likely to be given permission to play a counts as army of cathay minis from another manufacturer in a GW WHFB tourney than to be able to play a similar army made using LOTR figures. GW have a strict requirement that the two cannot mix officially due to the licensing agreement they made to be the manufacturers from the LOTR. Not being much a tourney player myself my real problem with using LOTR figures is that they are smaller than WHFB. The previously mentioned Clan War figures would be a good find, though they don't make them anymore. Also Wargames Foundry does a nice Samurai line of figures that are closer in size to WHFB, especially once placed on the necessary GW sized bases. Other mini manufacturers, like Perry Brothers, also do asian minis, but they suffer the same problem that the LOTR figures suffer by being *true* 28mm figures.

Even though I don't really play WHFB anymore I have been thinking of building a cathay or nippon army just for the heck of it and the painting enjoyment. I hadn't even thought of using the High Elf list as a source, but the way it is presented here in this thread makes it the most obvious choice to use just in case I decide I want to play the army after I build it someday.

Skriker