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I've been checking out alot of army lists for Tau and would like to get feedback on this one. It has no pathfinders because i'm hearing mixed reviews about them, more and more players are targeting them early to take them out quickly so this list has more guns instead.

93 Shas'el Cyclic Ion Blaster Plasma Multi-tracker EMP Grenades (will join gun drone unit for survivability)

127 XV8 x2 (used to pop transports or other low armor or can focus on infantry)
(1) Plasma, missile pod, multitracker, leader, bonding knife, HW target lock
(2) Burst cannon, missile pod, multitracker

160 Stealth team x5 team leader, bonding knife (good vs hordes or to target saturate 2/3+ armor saves)
160 Stealth team x5 team leader, bonding knife

115 Fire Warrior x9 team leader, bonding knife, markerlite (cheap markerlite, sit back and shoot group)
115 Fire Warrior x9 team leader, bonding knife, markerlite
70 Kroot x10 (speedbump)

60 Gun drones x5 (extra wounds for the Shas'el)
70 Piranha fusion blaster, targeting array (tank hunter)

170 XV88 x2 ASS, leader, HW mulitracker (tank hunter)
180 Hammerhead rail, SMS, target lock, multitracker, D.pod (tank or infantry)
180 Hammerhead rail, SMS, target lock, multitracker, D.pod

I think the list has lot of firepower for horde and AT but the troops lack speed for objectives. I've never been abl to effectively use firewarriors with devilfish to get their points back in value. Of course i will try and set them up in cover for the cover save since they are squishy and i will need to kill stuff before they get assaulted but i should have the guns to do it. Also not sold on the markerlites for them but it seemed the cheapest way to get a few markerlites into the army. I could drop 1 hammerhead down to a skyray and drop some warriors and markerlites to afford the devilfish for one group. Never used a skyray before not sure how good they are or really how they work. thoughts?

Slagmar wrote:93 Shas'el Cyclic Ion Blaster Plasma Multi-tracker EMP Grenades (will join gun drone unit for survivability)

1. EMP grenades are not as cool as him simply punching tanks in their rear armor with a suit's STR5, multiple times on the charge, as opposed to trying to stick a grenade on with one dice.
2. Don't have him join GDs; majority Toughness rules make him easier to kill. Just JSJ him to safety. Or attach to the other XV8 unit.

Slagmar wrote:115 Fire Warrior x9 team leader, bonding knife, markerlite (cheap markerlite, sit back and shoot group)
115 Fire Warrior x9 team leader, bonding knife, markerlite

FW gunlines don't work so well, as fast as 5e is. **

Slagmar wrote:60 Gun drones x5 (extra wounds for the Shas'el)

Having your HQ join them is a bad idea. He can now be wounded based on their sorry Toughness, 3.

Slagmar wrote:70 Piranha fusion blaster, targeting array (tank hunter)

You forgot the DisPod.

Slagmar wrote:170 XV88 x2 ASS, leader, HW mulitracker (tank hunter)

The MT is a waste. What are you likely to shoot at with SMS and an RG that is efficient to do so? Get him Shield Drones and a BK instead.

Slagmar wrote:I think the list has lot of firepower for horde and AT but the troops lack speed for objectives. I've never been abl to effectively use firewarriors with devilfish to get their points back in value.

** It takes modified FoF use to get your "points back in value" so to speak; but really, they're there to score. And at 9 & 9 they aren't going to pack much punch. I found a full 12 FoF, MarkerLight assisted produced results. I'd add the d'fish in, sacrificing a Stealth unit for the points.

Slagmar wrote: Of course i will try and set them up in cover for the cover save since they are squishy and i will need to kill stuff before they get assaulted but i should have the guns to do it. Also not sold on the markerlites for them but it seemed the cheapest way to get a few markerlites into the army. I could drop 1 hammerhead down to a skyray and drop some warriors and markerlites to afford the devilfish for one group. Never used a skyray before not sure how good they are or really how they work. thoughts?

Play without the PFs for now. I did for my first 2 or 3 years and have a winning record with them (4th ed. anyway).

this list is not very good but only because you lack experience.
The thoughts behind it are decent.

127 XV8 x2 (used to pop transports or other low armor or can focus on infantry)
(1) Plasma, missile pod, multitracker, leader, bonding knife, HW target lock
(2) Burst cannon, missile pod, multitracker

worst unit possible
Missile pods and burst cannons should not be fired simultaneously. It means you intend to use a MP at 18" rather then its ideal 36". Your lowering the performance and survivability of your MP's in order to use a BC which might get you one kill. Drop the BC and MT and make MP TL. Flamers orTA are best as a third option.
Meanwhile your TL has a plasma rifle. What are you going to shoot at man. Plasma is good for FNP blood angels tanks and termies BC's are good for soft infantry.
Rule 1
NEVER HAVE A UNIT THAT HAS THE INTENTION OF FIRING WEAPONS IN ALL 3 STRENGTH RANGES AT ONCE.
S5 S7 and S9 are not a good mix. Even with target lock. What happens is you either choose to take the whole unit in a BC friendly direction or you sacrifice your Infantry power and focus on using 1 plasma rifle

Give hammerheads BC's
its 20 pts for 2 shots dont pay it
drop the marker lights on FW or give the 'ui a TL
the markerlights are not networked.
Honestly 2 ML's will not win or lose the game. It forces you to cross fire between your FW's which is highly limiting.

Put a DP on the piranha or dont bring it

Drop the steath teams
your so over horde prepared you will get destroyed by any mech or MEQ army

ANd no. Skyrays suck. Try a FW unit and a Dfish with a seeker. Se how well one Seeker works. Then never touch it again.

docbrown wrote:(1) Plasma, missile pod, multitracker, leader, bonding knife, HW target lock
(2) Burst cannon, missile pod, multitracker

worst unit possible
Missile pods and burst cannons should not be fired simultaneously. It means you intend to use a MP at 18" rather then its ideal 36". Your lowering the performance and survivability of your MP's in order to use a BC which might get you one kill.

Docbrown, this load-out is called the FireStorm, a good anti-I pounder. The BC's 18" doesn't compromise safety as JSJ will put the suit up to 23.5" away; only vulnerable to assault by DarkEldar or Waaaaghing! orks. And as for the MP's 36", the more distance you put between shooter and target, then the more likely a Cover Save intervenes. Check Cottonjaw's thread on percentages/MathHammer for the various load-outs. You'll see that the FireStorm isn't that bad.

As for the unit as a whole, with Target Lock, they aren't shooting the same target.

docbrown wrote:Give hammerheads BC's its 20 pts for 2 shots dont pay it

Slagmar, Docbrown has a point here (several, actually ). I used to run SMS, but found the faster game of 5e had enemies in BC range anyway.

Also, the rest of Docbrown's advice is pretty much on, (though, gee docbrown, maybe a nicer tone/choice of words?):
1. Railhead over Skyray every time
2. MarkerLight with FW is not great.
3. List needs more anti-Tank

thanks for the feedback everyone, i've made a few changes. I play alot of people who bring troops in transports. my goal is to crack them open and then saturate them with as many shots as i can. That why i try to have a good amount of infantry fire.

82 Shas'el Cyclic Ion Blaster Missile Pod Multi-tracker (anti infantry - i'm still thinking about putting him with gun drones even though it lowers his T by 1. I'm worried a str 8 shot will find a way to him dreep strike etc and take him out in 1 shot)

139 XV8 x2 (is this unit better? str and range are closer together on the weapons, should be good for cracking transports or killing troops once opened)
(1) Plasma, missile pod, multitracker, leader, bonding knife, HW target lock
(2) Plasma, missile pod, multitracker

160 Stealth team x5 team leader, bonding knife (i just have to keep a unit of these they are cool)

105 Fire Warrior x9 team leader, bonding knife (found the points for transports, will go for objectives)
85 Devilfish Dpod

105 Fire Warrior x9 team leader, bonding knife
85 Devilfish Dpod

70 Kroot x10 (speedbump for broadsides or stealthsuits)

60 Gun drones x5
75 Piranha fusion blaster, targeting array, DP

195 XV88 x2 ASS, leader, HW target lock, Bonding Knife, 2 gun drones (added 2 drones for extra wounds and switched to target lock)
170 Hammerhead rail, BC, target lock, multitracker, D.pod
170 Hammerhead rail, BC, target lock, multitracker, D.pod

1501

Wouldn't ya know it...1 point over and where to drop it? Is this list better then my first one?

Theres a reason there taking out those pathfinders, and that is because there a force multiplier. Dont underestimate completely taking away a cover save from stuff, or + to balistic skill in this edition. If your facing a battlewagon rush on the other side of the board, and you remove the battlewagons cover with the mek on it and at least immobalize it, you have just changed the game considerably. Thats just one awesome thing they can do. Its also funny when an eldar player is running 2 min troop squads of rangers with there silly 2+ cover save, and suddenly you have raised it to 5 or worse. Good luck sitting on that objective now.

Here is what I run at 1500

HQ:

Shas'el plasma riffle, missile pod, multi tracker, t. array

Elite:

2x XV8 Crisis battlesuits missile pods, plasma riffle, multitracker, team lead, fusion, t. array

2x XV8 Crisis battlesuits missile pods, plasma riffle, multitracker, shasui, cyclic ion blaster, t. array

2x XV8 Crisis battlesuits missile pods, plasma riffle, multitracker, team lead, t. array

Troops:

6x Fire warriors 60

6x Fire warriors 60

12x kroot carnivores, 6x kroot hounds

Fast attack:

6x Pathfinders, devilfish, disruption pod

Piranha, fusion, t array

Piranha, fusion, t array

Heavy Support:

2x XV88 Broadside battlesuit, Advanced stabalization systems, team leader upgrade, hard wired drone controller,
2x shield drones, hard wired target lock

2x XV88 Broadside battlesuit, Advanced stabalization systems, team leader upgrade, hard wired drone controller,
2x shield drones, hard wired target lock

Works pretty well for me, sub out a unit of broadsides for a hammerhead if you prefer, about the same points cost. Many dont like the piranha, and there not the best things out there for sure. Dropping them for a hammerhead or broadsides is more effecient, but its a fun model. Not really tourney worthy imo, but I dont really build super competative lists. Also this is probably a bit over in points, as I just glanced at my 2k list and subtracted stuff. But it can be changed around.

i can replace the piranha with 5 pathfinders with team leader and bonding knife and steal one the of devilfish from the firewarriors for them for the same points. I would still be 1 point over and don't know what to drop for that 1 point....

I will prob have to drop 1 firewarrior and add 1 kroot to get under 1500. i dont see any wargear i can dop instead that i would want to.

Slagmar wrote: Shas'el Cyclic Ion Blaster Missile Pod Multi-tracker (anti infantry - i'm still thinking about putting him with gun drones even though it lowers his T by 1. I'm worried a str 8 shot will find a way to him dreep strike etc and take him out in 1 shot)

Then remove the Gun Drone squadron entirely. They aren't great or good by any means. Add 2 Shield Drones to the HQ. *They* take on his Toughness, Armor Save, have an Invuln, so you could assign high STR wounds to them and they might live.

GDs? Nope. They drag down his T. Have their worse Armor Save and no Invuln and will thus die automatically.

This is why Shield Ds are in the codex.

Slagmar wrote:139 XV8 x2 (is this unit better? str and range are closer together on the weapons, should be good for cracking transports or killing troops once opened)
(1) Plasma, missile pod, multitracker, leader, bonding knife, HW target lock
(2) Plasma, missile pod, multitracker

Lose the BK, as a single surviving suit is still 50% of the unit, and can rally without the BK. Really, though, just make each suit his own unit since you now have the elite slot open. Keep the "Team Leader", but make 'em:
TeamL, Target Array, PR, MP, hwMT

This FireKnife+ has the better BS of 4.

Slagmar wrote:160 Stealth team x5 team leader, bonding knife

Since you had a second unit of these, why not run the full 6?

Slagmar wrote:60 Gun drones x5

Toss 'em in favor of ShieldDs for the HQ and broadsides.

Slagmar wrote:195 XV88 x2 ASS, leader, HW target lock, Bonding Knife, 2 gun drones (added 2 drones for extra wounds and switched to target lock)

Shield Drones! It's the Toughness thing again. Plus, Shield Drones will gain the B-sides' 2+ Armor Save. Check list after list. You'll find that Shield Drones on b-sides are fairly standard.

Slagmar wrote:1501 Wouldn't ya know it...1 point over and where to drop it?

With the GD squadron out, and 4 ShieldDs in, that extra point might just go. Trim the point by removing one FW.

Slagmar wrote:Is this list better then my first one?

Not much. Once you remove the GDs and put in SDs instead, then yes, the list will be better.

Brothererekose wrote:

docbrown wrote:(1) Plasma, missile pod, multitracker, leader, bonding knife, HW target lock
(2) Burst cannon, missile pod, multitracker

worst unit possible
Missile pods and burst cannons should not be fired simultaneously. It means you intend to use a MP at 18" rather then its ideal 36". Your lowering the performance and survivability of your MP's in order to use a BC which might get you one kill.

Docbrown, this load-out is called the FireStorm, a good anti-I pounder. The BC's 18" doesn't compromise safety as JSJ will put the suit up to 23.5" away; only vulnerable to assault by DarkEldar or Waaaaghing! orks. And as for the MP's 36", the more distance you put between shooter and target, then the more likely a Cover Save intervenes. Check Cottonjaw's thread on percentages/MathHammer for the various load-outs. You'll see that the FireStorm isn't that bad.

As for the unit as a whole, with Target Lock, they aren't shooting the same target.

docbrown wrote:Give hammerheads BC's its 20 pts for 2 shots dont pay it

Slagmar, Docbrown has a point here (several, actually ). I used to run SMS, but found the faster game of 5e had enemies in BC range anyway.

Also, the rest of Docbrown's advice is pretty much on, (though, gee docbrown, maybe a nicer tone/choice of words?):
1. Railhead over Skyray every time
2. MarkerLight with FW is not great.
3. List needs more anti-Tank

when i talk about combining fireknives im not talking about shooting. Im well aware that TL allows them to shoot separately. However imagine this scenario. Your crisis suits have LOS to 2 vaulble targets. no cover. however you need to move 6" either way to be in range to shoot it with your weapons. ex. you are 30" away from a basilisk and 24" away from a guard blob with deadly lascannons. Yes you CAN shoot at both with TL but you need to make a choice. With a mixed unit you find yourself depending on 1 unit to do 2 jobs.

Personally i dont like the firestorm for one reason. 6 burst cannons get 7 kills on geq. putting one on a crisis suit will give you 1 kill extra. Meanwhile your missile pod will give you 1. You can't twin link because your multitracker takes a hardpoint. so you either get 2 kills from a firestorm. Or you TLMP and give a BC without multi tracker. This assumes you will be in a scenario where a BC will be more effective then a TLMP, witch by mathhammer does not exist.
Your best option is to go with one of two approaches. garunteed fire or last ditch. TAke a TL MP and give it a TA for accuracy or a flamer for that last moment blast where you need to wipe a mob clean

docbrown wrote:Personally i dont like the firestorm for one reason. 6 burst cannons get 7 kills on geq.

Huh? Do you mean, 6 Stealths?
18 shots @ BS3. 9 hits. 7 or 8 wounds. Okay. What does that have to do with a FireStorm, or why you don't like the FS?

docbrown wrote: putting one on a crisis suit will give you 1 kill extra. Meanwhile your missile pod will give you 1. You can't twin link because your multitracker takes a hardpoint. so you either get 2 kills from a firestorm.

"either... " Or what? You got a 'dependent clause' here. Using the word 'either' implies that you're going to supply a second statement. Anyway, moving on: 5 shots @ B3. ~2.5 hits. 3 wounds. 2 dead Geqs, assuming they're in Cover.

Got it.

docbrown wrote:Or you TLMP and give a BC without multi tracker. This assumes you will be in a scenario where a BC will be more effective then a TLMP, witch by mathhammer does not exist.

This is a straw-man fallacy. Setting up a worthless scenario and knocking it down isn't a valid argument point. And 'witch' is an evil woman on a broom. The conjunction you want to use is spelled "which". Also, you could try hitting the 'shift' key at the beginning of your sentences more often for capital letters.

Your stuff is tough reading. I should know. I'm a teacher. Been so for 12+ years. The up-shot being, your posts will carry more weight with some correct sentence structure (grammar) and typing.

docbrown wrote:Your best option is to go with one of two approaches. garunteed fire or last ditch.

And which is which?

docbrown wrote:TAke a TL MP and give it a TA for accuracy or a flamer for that last moment blast where you need to wipe a mob clean

Yeah, that's a Deathrain. Light anti-tank duty, with a flamer mop-up.

FireStorm - Primarily anti-horde duty, with the option of a tank popper (the BCs can glance rhino armor, of course).

Each suit is different in use: the DR the more focused, and better, rhino/transport hitter. The FS less so a transport killer, but good at mowing down orks or forcing MEq saves.

Neither is better than the other, just different load-outs for different uses.

Since I have used PFs quite a bit in the latter part of my tau use, the FS suits rock, because they get MarkerLight support, which the Deathrain, doesn't need, but you know this.

sorry for bad grammar i am relearning typing and am disgraphic.
The simple truth is when you do the math a burst cannon achieves 1 kill.
Loading out your suits for that extra kill is inefficient.
Granted A FS with ML support does rock. But when your expending 6 ML pathfinders on some firestorms for GEQ killing power, your priorities are in the wrong place.
I advise against FS for two reasons. 1 Terrible against MEQ 2 Its an awkward use of a crisis suit to be up close like the FS needs.

thanks again for the feedback all, i think this could be the final list hopefully: (i had to add BK if adding sheild drones)

127 Shas'el Cyclic Ion Blaster Missile Pod target array HW Multi-tracker sheild drones x2, bonding knife

77 XV8 - Plasma, Missile Pod, Target Array, Leader, HW Multi tracker
77 XV8 - Plasma, Missile Pod, Target Array, Leader, HW Multi tracker

160 Stealth team x5 team leader, bonding knife

85 Fire Warrior x7 team leader, bonding knife
85 Devilfish Dpod

105 Fire Warrior x9 team leader, bonding knife

77 Kroot x11

75 Pathfinder x5 leader bonding knife
85 Devilfish Dpod

205 XV88 x2 ASS, leader, HW target lock, 2 sheild drones, bonding knife
170 Hammerhead rail, BC, target lock, multitracker, D.pod
170 Hammerhead rail, BC, target lock, multitracker, D.pod

1498

hmm
not bad
the single FK UNITS will get blasted but hopefully they won't until mid game as that firepower will get pointed at HH and BS
What do you plan on using the PF for.
My suggestion is focusing on reducing LD on some inf you attack with FW or kroot.
The suits have TA and rape whatever they shoot so they dont need. And the day i see a HH or BS truly need a PF is the day i hand in my tau card. Those things are awesome without them.

Not a big fan of the Stealth Team. For 160 points you can get a team of Bladestorm XV8's, which are going to be more survivable, and devastating to heavy infantry (read: Marines).

Look into it.

Other than that, you're on your way to a very decent list. Good luck! For the Greater Good!

personally id include a piranha instead of the PFs.
The Tau is an army of time. We take it. We pick away. We run we hide we shoot. We are more of an annoyance then anything. The piranha however is not an annoyance. with DP FB TA loadout it is a fast moving HOLY gak ready to be sent. Regardless of game usage i make it a must have. The ability to put your opponent on his toes is priceless. There is no better way to feth up a plan then to force your oppenent to fire valuble AT at a 75 pt skimmer. You can save so much with just one piranha.

Ussually in 2k games I run 3. 2 of them usually die and one destroys something nice and valuable. But nothing shoots my HH, BS or crisis teams for that turn.

Hell. I have place 3 piranhas in front of 3 land raiders carrying 30 stormsheild assault termies. I simply placed them right in front and resolved the rest of my turn. He evacuated each and every one of his termies for fear of losing them. Being a kill point game i nuked the LR's turn 2 with 6 BS's and the 3 piranhas. I managed explodes on all 3. I turned a mech army into a foot slogging army before it even moved. This is why i dont take PF's. PF's simply multiply my power. Piranhas change the game.

docbrown wrote:And the day i see a HH or BS truly need a PF is the day i hand in my tau card. Those things are awesome without them.

Aren't Kan Walls with KFF in your local meta? *That's* what PFs are for in 5e; eliminating the Cover Save, since 5e has given Cover Saves everywhere. Stormraven goes Flat Out? Doesn't matter with PF MarkerLight help.

we play on a board with no area terrain only obstacles

docbrown wrote:we play on a board with no area terrain only obstacles

Highly advantagous for tau. If you want to mix it up, a wee bit of felt, cut into an area of say, 6x4, curved, offers some 'bushes' and such. 6+ to 4+ depending on how your buddies like it.

we play on a winter themed board
we cut a nice lake into it for dangerous terain and put an island in.
We have allot of stuf on there. We prefer LOS blocking terraint and chest high wall cover. Its more about manevuering to obtain cover rather then plopping on random discs and firing. flanking can ignore cover, thats how we like it.
Also my feild only has SM IG and eldar.