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I had this thought today after reading my DA codex, I'm thinking that the current codex for DA will be the last since they are so much like codex marines as far as build goes, and the only thing they have going for them is Deathwing and ravenwing, which could easily be done using a HQ character, while the thought is kind of depressing, it seems logical since all that really seperates them is the fluff.

It would make sense, yes, as the all-biker army and the all-Terminator army can be done by other codices now, and those, really, are the only things that the Dark Angels had to separate them from the pack.

Seaward wrote:It would make sense, yes, as the all-biker army and the all-Terminator army can be done by other codices now, and those, really, are the only things that the Dark Angels had to separate them from the pack.

Ya, and they lost all their fluff rules in 4e

Seaward wrote:It would make sense, yes, as the all-biker army and the all-Terminator army can be done by other codices now, and those, really, are the only things that the Dark Angels had to separate them from the pack.

And like I've said over and over and over and over and over and over whenever this topic gets brought up:

The whole reason that Dark Angels can be put into Space Marines is because Space Marines came after Dark Angels and the idea of "signature units" like the Sanguinary Guard, Wolf Guard, etc was not considered when creating Dark Angels.

The absolute closest that Dark Angels got was the Company Veterans, which really were just the same as the previous edition veterans. They went with the idea of "signature formations" for DA, but they kind of fethed the pooch with it.

Kanluwen wrote:

Seaward wrote:It would make sense, yes, as the all-biker army and the all-Terminator army can be done by other codices now, and those, really, are the only things that the Dark Angels had to separate them from the pack.

And like I've said over and over and over and over and over and over whenever this topic gets brought up:

The whole reason that Dark Angels can be put into Space Marines is because Space Marines came after Dark Angels and the idea of "signature units" like the Sanguinary Guard, Wolf Guard, etc was not considered when creating Dark Angels.

The absolute closest that Dark Angels got was the Company Veterans, which really were just the same as the previous edition veterans. They went with the idea of "signature formations" for DA, but they kind of fethed the pooch with it.

Huh I did not know they came first.

Should DA be merged with the SM codex? Only if SW, BA, BT, GK are as well.

Can be done quite easily and none of the codex, outside of fluff, truly warrant a unique codex. A few FOC swaps and changes to how units work (allow tacticals to have terminator armor for +XXX pts. Elite GK unit would get termy option as above and if you have a librarian HQ, they are troops just as an idea) would be enough to make any codex work.

The few things that wouldn't work and aren't shared between the marines (or easily transferable to the above mentioned system) really shouldn't exist in the first place as they're quite broken, quite stupid, and just don't make sense for a 40k army. Things like Dreadknights, Thunderwolf cavalry, and priests fall into this category.

Nvs wrote:Should DA be merged with the SM codex? Only if SW, BA, BT, GK are as well.

Can be done quite easily and none of the codex, outside of fluff, truly warrant a unique codex. A few FOC swaps and changes to how units work (allow tacticals to have terminator armor for +XXX pts. Elite GK unit would get termy option as above and if you have a librarian HQ, they are troops just as an idea) would be enough to make any codex work.

The few things that wouldn't work and aren't shared between the marines (or easily transferable to the above mentioned system) really shouldn't exist in the first place as they're quite broken, quite stupid, and just don't make sense for a 40k army. Things like Dreadknights, Thunderwolf cavalry, and priests fall into this category.

Nah. Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Black Templars all have enough significant differences that they'd lose quite a bit if rolled into the SM 'dex. I'm not sure how you'd go about proposing to give every Marine psyker status to represent the Grey Knights using just that book, either.

The seperate codeci are supposed to represent different organisational structures. Only SW and BT actually fall into this catagory.
If you had an overall Marine codex it would have to be pretty big...

Nvs wrote:Should DA be merged with the SM codex? Only if SW, BA, BT, GK are as well.

Can be done quite easily and none of the codex, outside of fluff, truly warrant a unique codex. A few FOC swaps and changes to how units work (allow tacticals to have terminator armor for +XXX pts. Elite GK unit would get termy option as above and if you have a librarian HQ, they are troops just as an idea) would be enough to make any codex work.

The few things that wouldn't work and aren't shared between the marines (or easily transferable to the above mentioned system) really shouldn't exist in the first place as they're quite broken, quite stupid, and just don't make sense for a 40k army. Things like Dreadknights, Thunderwolf cavalry, and priests fall into this category.

Difference is however those factions have both unique rules for them and trully unique units (lone wolves, furioso dread, sword brethren, dreadknight as examples) wherein DA has no unique units, and no unique rules

Wardragoon wrote:

Nvs wrote:Should DA be merged with the SM codex? Only if SW, BA, BT, GK are as well.

Can be done quite easily and none of the codex, outside of fluff, truly warrant a unique codex. A few FOC swaps and changes to how units work (allow tacticals to have terminator armor for +XXX pts. Elite GK unit would get termy option as above and if you have a librarian HQ, they are troops just as an idea) would be enough to make any codex work.

The few things that wouldn't work and aren't shared between the marines (or easily transferable to the above mentioned system) really shouldn't exist in the first place as they're quite broken, quite stupid, and just don't make sense for a 40k army. Things like Dreadknights, Thunderwolf cavalry, and priests fall into this category.

Difference is however those factions have both unique rules for them and trully unique units (lone wolves, furioso dread, sword brethren, dreadknight as examples) wherein DA has no unique units, and no unique rules

Interrogator Chaplains? No? Thats not enough to qualify? Well they had Deathwing and Ravenwing, which my guess is will be beefed up versions of the existing options. In any case, none of the other SM forces really had unique units until their current incarnations. Half the units in the Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Grey Knight books did not exist until this edition. GW could easily create another batch of new units for the DA.

purplefood wrote:The seperate codeci are supposed to represent different organisational structures. Only SW and BT actually fall into this catagory.
If you had an overall Marine codex it would have to be pretty big...

Not that big. Almost all the vehicles are shared, you could combine many of them (e.g. Furioso and Ironclad, Rune Priest and Librarian) and simply do something at the beginning of the list that says "your HQ must declare which chapter it belongs to, in which case it has the following options and the following units will have some different options as described in their entry". It really wouldn't be that hard, and you'd be able to cut out many of the things that are different simply for the sake of being different and have no real reason to be different. The Wolf Guard sergeant thing for example, aside from simply being a really cheap sergeant with really cheap options and an expanded wargear selection, why does it need to be taken from one unit and spread amongst others instead of just having a sergeant upgrade option in the units entry?

As for DA's, you could swap them entirely into C:SM and all you'd really have to do is add in the SC's, and combine Tac & Assault terminator entries, which honestly are a rather artificial difference in the first place.

Well as Kanluwen said, they don't have unique things because their codex was designed with a different mindset. If you compare their codex to the previous wolves, BA, etc then you'll see they have about as much difference as those do.

As for not being able to? As I said, some of the things that are unique shouldn't even exist. Thunderwolf cav, dreadknights, and priests are probably some of the silliest things added to the marines in a long while.

Other things that are unique aren't unique enough to warrant a book. Furioso dreads for example could just be a type of dread you buy. Downgrade them to 2x dccw == furioso even and call it a day.

Devastators likely shouldn't be able to shoot multiple targets regardless so there goes the need for long fangs.

Grey Hunters and BT Brorthers could be done by making elite scouts actually elite as they'd have roughly the same rules and stat lines then.

I mean I know this is going to nerf some things to make it fit, but the game as a whole would be better off with a single Codex: Adeptus Astartes then it would be to try and justify needing a GK, BT, DA, SW, BA, etc book. Especially when the next edition is right around the corner and the change could be done properly and marines actually be balanced against the other armies as a whole instead of some being poor, some being fair, and most being lol.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:

Nvs wrote:Should DA be merged with the SM codex? Only if SW, BA, BT, GK are as well.

Can be done quite easily and none of the codex, outside of fluff, truly warrant a unique codex. A few FOC swaps and changes to how units work (allow tacticals to have terminator armor for +XXX pts. Elite GK unit would get termy option as above and if you have a librarian HQ, they are troops just as an idea) would be enough to make any codex work.

The few things that wouldn't work and aren't shared between the marines (or easily transferable to the above mentioned system) really shouldn't exist in the first place as they're quite broken, quite stupid, and just don't make sense for a 40k army. Things like Dreadknights, Thunderwolf cavalry, and priests fall into this category.

Difference is however those factions have both unique rules for them and trully unique units (lone wolves, furioso dread, sword brethren, dreadknight as examples) wherein DA has no unique units, and no unique rules

Interrogator Chaplains? No? Thats not enough to qualify? Well they had Deathwing and Ravenwing, which my guess is will be beefed up versions of the existing options. In any case, none of the other SM forces really had unique units until their current incarnations. Half the units in the Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Grey Knight books did not exist until this edition. GW could easily create another batch of new units for the DA.

Didn't exist until this edition?
Have you seen the previous SW codex?
They have 1 entirely new unit and that is the TWC.
2 New characters in Arjac and Lukas.
Everything else was in the previous codex and probably older editions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vaktathi wrote:

purplefood wrote:The seperate codeci are supposed to represent different organisational structures. Only SW and BT actually fall into this catagory.
If you had an overall Marine codex it would have to be pretty big...

Not that big. Almost all the vehicles are shared, you could combine many of them (e.g. Furioso and Ironclad, Rune Priest and Librarian) and simply do something at the beginning of the list that says "your HQ must declare which chapter it belongs to, in which case it has the following options and the following units will have some different options as described in their entry". It really wouldn't be that hard, and you'd be able to cut out many of the things that are different simply for the sake of being different and have no real reason to be different. The Wolf Guard sergeant thing for example, aside from simply being a really cheap sergeant with really cheap options and an expanded wargear selection, why does it need to be taken from one unit and spread amongst others instead of just having a sergeant upgrade option in the units entry?

As for DA's, you could swap them entirely into C:SM and all you'd really have to do is add in the SC's, and combine Tac & Assault terminator entries, which honestly are a rather artificial difference in the first place.

Because that is the way Wolf Guard work.
If you had them as an upgrade entry then IMO you should add in a stipulation that every 1-10 Wolf Guard count as an Elite choice.

purplefood wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:

Nvs wrote:Should DA be merged with the SM codex? Only if SW, BA, BT, GK are as well.

Can be done quite easily and none of the codex, outside of fluff, truly warrant a unique codex. A few FOC swaps and changes to how units work (allow tacticals to have terminator armor for +XXX pts. Elite GK unit would get termy option as above and if you have a librarian HQ, they are troops just as an idea) would be enough to make any codex work.

The few things that wouldn't work and aren't shared between the marines (or easily transferable to the above mentioned system) really shouldn't exist in the first place as they're quite broken, quite stupid, and just don't make sense for a 40k army. Things like Dreadknights, Thunderwolf cavalry, and priests fall into this category.

Difference is however those factions have both unique rules for them and trully unique units (lone wolves, furioso dread, sword brethren, dreadknight as examples) wherein DA has no unique units, and no unique rules

Interrogator Chaplains? No? Thats not enough to qualify? Well they had Deathwing and Ravenwing, which my guess is will be beefed up versions of the existing options. In any case, none of the other SM forces really had unique units until their current incarnations. Half the units in the Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Grey Knight books did not exist until this edition. GW could easily create another batch of new units for the DA.

Didn't exist until this edition?
Have you seen the previous SW codex?
They have 1 entirely new unit and that is the TWC.
2 New characters in Arjac and Lukas.
Everything else was in the previous codex and probably older editions.

Actually no.
The Thunderwolf Cavalry, while a new unit, is not the 'only new unit'.

Many of the newly named units(Skyclaws, Swiftclaws, Stormclaws) are all 'new'.
Wolf Guard exclusively as Terminators is 'new'.
Lone Wolves, as well, are new.
Arjac and Lukas are both new, but slightly irrelevant as they're not really characters but just unit upgrades.

Good point i forgot about the Lone Wolves.
Though Swift Claws and Sky Claws are only new in name.
Wolf Guard have new options but they are not new as a unit.

Swiftclaws and Skyclaws are new in name, but at the same time--they've also got new rules applying to them.

Because that is the way Wolf Guard work.
If you had them as an upgrade entry then IMO you should add in a stipulation that every 1-10 Wolf Guard count as an Elite choice.

At that point however it's being different just for the sake of being different while not really actually changing anything in the army's actual play except currently cutting sergeant costs by up to half in many cases for no good reason. The mechanic is there for its own sake, differences for the sake of differences, they don't actually play any differently. When that's the case, it's easily scrapped.

Fair enough.
Though they reflect the fluff well...
The balance between fluff and things that actually do something seems to be a hard one.

True, and often people get very attached to a minor mechanic, specific stat or statline, or weapon/wargear that's often changed every edition (e.g. Assault Cannons, SM Captain Weapon SKill, etc.) or something that was there just for 3rd ed but wasn't in RT/2nd/4th and think that anything that doesn't include it can't possibly be right. Everyone is guilty of this to some extent, but for many things it makes attempting to redo stuff (or even just discussions on this sort of thing) very difficult.

SW have a different chapter organization, but this isn't really seen in their book, unless by "different" you mean "horrendously undercosted".

Let's not forget the fact that power armour books make a lot of money for GW. That more than anything is the biggest reason they'll remain a separate codex.

To reiterate previous points. Current C:SM is based largely around a lot of things that got playtested using Codex DA. SW/BT/BA in their older incarnations were just as far apart from C:SM as DA currently are.

There are more but as long as the design philosophy doesn't shift radically again expect to see 5ed Codex DA with a at least 4 new options.

Droma wrote:Let's not forget the fact that power armour books make a lot of money for GW. That more than anything is the biggest reason they'll remain a separate codex.

They also cannibalize a lot of sales however and end up reducing resources/interest in other armies, and is a source of endless consumer angst. There may be enough positives to consider it.

Dark Angels have a couple of unique units, though nothing compared to the new unique chapter dex's. For the record, I think its stupid how many terminator armies there can be now. Bikes it makes sense, and wish it had been done in a way to make the top three bike armies seperate from each other (White Scars, Ravenwing, and Blood Angels) while still standing on top of the standard marines.

It's a shame the existing special stuff for the Dark Angels that are different don't actually exist on the tabletop in regular play. Namely the Mortis Dreadnought and the Land Raider Ares (Well, if we got the Achilles... not too op right?) though at least we have our interrogators.

Droma touched on the biggest issue as to why the DA won't be rolled up into a Codex SM.

Up until the last 2-3 years when the SW and BA got their new codexes the best selling SM Chapter specific models were DA and that was true for a very very long time. DA are a big cash cow to GW so you'll see them again without a doubt.

vonjankmon wrote:Droma touched on the biggest issue as to why the DA won't be rolled up into a Codex SM.

Up until the last 2-3 years when the SW and BA got their new codexes the best selling SM Chapter specific models were DA and that was true for a very very long time. DA are a big cash cow to GW so you'll see them again without a doubt.

Considering how great a deal the DA upgrade sprue was, that doesn't mean that people are into DA proper, only that people like great deals.

Vaktathi wrote:

Droma wrote:Let's not forget the fact that power armour books make a lot of money for GW. That more than anything is the biggest reason they'll remain a separate codex.

They also cannibalize a lot of sales however and end up reducing resources/interest in other armies, and is a source of endless consumer angst. There may be enough positives to consider it.

Yes, but that requires logic and foresight to understand. And we're talking about GW here.

Kanluwen wrote:
Wolf Guard exclusively as Terminators is 'new'.

No, it's not.

Grimtuff wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Wolf Guard exclusively as Terminators is 'new'.

No, it's not.

Yes, it is.

The Space Wolf minidex had Wolf Guard with the option for Terminator Armor.
They were not the Space Wolf Terminator Squads.

You could always field squads of Wolf Guard in terminator armor. You're playing with semantics.

Nothing is genuinely new in the Wolves codex except them riding mutated aspirants into battle.

Lone Wolves are new as Kan pointed out...