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We have a rare chance to suck even more fluff from Chaos. "Armies led by Abaddon the Despoiler are Chaos Marines. All tactical squads receive a handweapon. Also, you may not take any other upgrades of any sort cuz Chaos has to lose."

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:We have a rare chance to suck even more fluff from Chaos. "Armies led by Abaddon the Despoiler are Chaos Marines. All tactical squads receive a handweapon. Also, you may not take any other upgrades of any sort cuz Chaos has to lose."

well thats if its written by a certain author whose name incites the neckbeards to wrath

Wardragoon wrote:Hell I'll try running Captain Stern with Mephiston, it makes plenty of sense

Mephiston, Tigurius and Njal all together in a mega-deathstar librarian HQ choice squad, plus 3x retinue

o.0
''''''

Super-psyker deathstar!

im2randomghgh wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:Hell I'll try running Captain Stern with Mephiston, it makes plenty of sense

Mephiston, Tigurius and Njal all together in a mega-deathstar librarian HQ choice squad, plus 3x retinue

o.0
'''

I think we call that division by zero

im2randomghgh wrote:
Mephiston, Tigurius and Njal all together in a mega-deathstar librarian HQ choice squad, plus 3x retinue

o.0
''''''

Now who's the crazy one.

Droma wrote:

Link to a page containing sales figures? Otherwise this is speculation.

That was kind of the point...

Seaward wrote:

So essentially, your argument is, "If we remove all of the stuff that wouldn't fit into the SM codex, all the variant chapters would fit into the SM codex!"

That's true. Also a bad idea.

Personally, I think someone running a list with the Emperor's Champion and AACNMO, as well as Sanguinary Priests, Lone Wolves, and Mephiston would be a perfect nightmare, but if it's what you're advocating, I'll be the first to try it.

So you play games with 4 HQs? That's fine... my opponents would call me a cheat, but hey whatever floats your boat?

I honestly don't understand you guys. You cry till the cows come home about how it can't be done. I give you a way to do it, and then you come up with random scenarios (that aren't even legal with normal rules) to shoot it down when I specifically said it was only to put forth a way to make a Codex Adeptus Astartes book feasible.

Since the groupies haven't been able to shoot it down yet I'm just going to presume you're all in agreement that it's feasible.

If it's not, feel free to list a unit you feel can't be replicated and I'll see where it goes.

And the idea that I would simply throw out what wouldn't fit is silly. The few things that wouldn't fit shouldn't exist (Dreadknights and Thunderwolf Cavalry) because they simply don't fit in 40k in general and certainly not for Marines. The other things are excessive currently and should be toned down (thus making the Priests act like the new DW Apoth for example as opposed to the current rules).

And for those of you who want to continue playing with your 4 HQ's, here's how you make it work... black crusade, where all armies partake.

But only for those who typically run 4 HQ's in a single list.

@NVS

I'm not sure what gives you the authority to say something doesn't belong in 40k when its fairly obvious that a good number of players enjoy those particular options. It's a spurious argument to make.

Nvs wrote:
So you play games with 4 HQs? That's fine... my opponents would call me a cheat, but hey whatever floats your boat?

My opponents would call me a Space Wolf player, a codex where four HQs are perfectly legal. And, for what it's worth? I only named two HQs, one of whom doesn't count against force organization in his codex. Are you sure you've actually bothered to look into these codices before dismissing them? It sure doesn't sound like it.

I honestly don't understand you guys. You cry till the cows come home about how it can't be done. I give you a way to do it, and then you come up with random scenarios (that aren't even legal with normal rules) to shoot it down when I specifically said it was only to put forth a way to make a Codex Adeptus Astartes book feasible.

Since the groupies haven't been able to shoot it down yet I'm just going to presume you're all in agreement that it's feasible.

Is it feasible to replicate every variant codex unit and rule in one codex? Sure, it's feasible, in the sense that the pages could be printed. You could staple the variant codices to the back of Codex: Space Marines, if you liked, and charge a little more. That's not the point. You're not advocating that.

And the idea that I would simply throw out what wouldn't fit is silly. The few things that wouldn't fit shouldn't exist (Dreadknights and Thunderwolf Cavalry) because they simply don't fit in 40k in general and certainly not for Marines. The other things are excessive currently and should be toned down (thus making the Priests act like the new DW Apoth for example as opposed to the current rules).

Games Workshop says otherwise. Fortunately, they listen to the sweet, sweet sound of cash going into the register, not to every swingin' Richard with his own plan to revise their game.

Nvs wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Nvs wrote:No different rules depending on what chapter you play. There is one set of rules that encompesses everything and it's up to the player to decide if he wants to play his list to win, or wants to play it toward a specific chapter.

Now how do you handle Grey Knights as troops you ask? You take special character 1 which makes a unit of veterans troops and a librarian HQ to make your veterans GK.

And keep in mind that this was done on the fly without any money, motivation, or time on the topic. It was merely to illustrate how easy it could be done.

So in other words: If your Chapter isn't competetive it sucks to be you! Yeah, that's OBVIOUSLY just as good as what we have now...

I've posed the question numerous times now... name me a unit you don't think could be transferred over to this system and I'll show you a unit that either a.) can in fact fit into the sytem or b.) shouldn't exist.

Sure thing: Grey Knights with Nemesis Force Weapons and Storm Bolters. Purifiers. Grey Knights Terminators as troops. Anything with a Psycannon. You simply won't have enough HQ slots to allow one to play a Grey Knights force without adding a "choose your Chapter" mechanic, in which case you're back to writing specific rules for Chapters and might as well write a separate Codex.

As for the "1000 SW in a Great Company" I'm still waiting for a source. Saying "it is because it is!" isn't a source.

Someone will probably have to correct me here but I think the 1000 SW companies is a kind of fluff hole. So back in the day with the great crusade and all that was true. But then in the current time line they still have the twelve great companies and there are no SW based splitter chapters.

So the reasoning goes that they must still all be 1000 strong and thus 12K drooling marines.

I think a better way to look at it would be that they probably took very, very, very heavy casualties during the Heresy that reduced their numbers greatly and they probably did not rebuild entirely, but that is totally my guess.

The problem with DA isn't the lack of diference with C:sm, its a poor design philosophy, DA could easily gain alot of new units and divert from the Codex astartes, more so than any other chapter and still fit the fluff, they are THE most secretive chapter, and are perfectly willing to "silence" anyone who see's too much.
This allows for a whole new string of units, and is more justifiable than say.. the sanguinor or the space wolf space squirrel

Seaward wrote:

Nvs wrote:
So you play games with 4 HQs? That's fine... my opponents would call me a cheat, but hey whatever floats your boat?

My opponents would call me a Space Wolf player, a codex where four HQs are perfectly legal. And, for what it's worth? I only named two HQs, one of whom doesn't count against force organization in his codex. Are you sure you've actually bothered to look into these codices before dismissing them? It sure doesn't sound like it.

I honestly don't understand you guys. You cry till the cows come home about how it can't be done. I give you a way to do it, and then you come up with random scenarios (that aren't even legal with normal rules) to shoot it down when I specifically said it was only to put forth a way to make a Codex Adeptus Astartes book feasible.

Since the groupies haven't been able to shoot it down yet I'm just going to presume you're all in agreement that it's feasible.

Is it feasible to replicate every variant codex unit and rule in one codex? Sure, it's feasible, in the sense that the pages could be printed. You could staple the variant codices to the back of Codex: Space Marines, if you liked, and charge a little more. That's not the point. You're not advocating that.

And the idea that I would simply throw out what wouldn't fit is silly. The few things that wouldn't fit shouldn't exist (Dreadknights and Thunderwolf Cavalry) because they simply don't fit in 40k in general and certainly not for Marines. The other things are excessive currently and should be toned down (thus making the Priests act like the new DW Apoth for example as opposed to the current rules).

Games Workshop says otherwise. Fortunately, they listen to the sweet, sweet sound of cash going into the register, not to every swingin' Richard with his own plan to revise their game.

For what it's worth you named 2 current HQ's and named 2 game mechanics that require a further 2 HQs based off my original post.

And people posed the question in this thread how to do it and if it can be done. I never once said I was up for the challenge, only that the codex aren't sufficiently different and it can be done quite easily.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Nvs wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Nvs wrote:No different rules depending on what chapter you play. There is one set of rules that encompesses everything and it's up to the player to decide if he wants to play his list to win, or wants to play it toward a specific chapter.

Now how do you handle Grey Knights as troops you ask? You take special character 1 which makes a unit of veterans troops and a librarian HQ to make your veterans GK.

And keep in mind that this was done on the fly without any money, motivation, or time on the topic. It was merely to illustrate how easy it could be done.

So in other words: If your Chapter isn't competetive it sucks to be you! Yeah, that's OBVIOUSLY just as good as what we have now...

I've posed the question numerous times now... name me a unit you don't think could be transferred over to this system and I'll show you a unit that either a.) can in fact fit into the sytem or b.) shouldn't exist.

Sure thing: Grey Knights with Nemesis Force Weapons and Storm Bolters. Purifiers. Grey Knights Terminators as troops. Anything with a Psycannon. You simply won't have enough HQ slots to allow one to play a Grey Knights force without adding a "choose your Chapter" mechanic, in which case you're back to writing specific rules for Chapters and might as well write a separate Codex.

As for the "1000 SW in a Great Company" I'm still waiting for a source. Saying "it is because it is!" isn't a source.

So yea...

Grey Knights, check.
Paladins, Check
Terminator Troops, Check.
Grey Knight Terminator Troops, Check.

I already outlined these all in my first post.

Take X to make Y Grey Knights.
Take Z to make Y Troops.

As for purifiers, I'll admit I've forgotten what they are, sorry. Mostly gone through the GK book for the background moreso the rules (since I don't play them etc.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But whatever, it's clear we've all grown tired of this.

I'll just reiterate that I feel DA deserve their own codex, but it would be my preference to see all the SM merged into one simply because it solves a lot of the problems players face

And to be honest, I can't wait to see what GW can do with the army as a whole now that they've given away everything that made the DA, DA. Should be interesting.

Nvs wrote:So yea...

Grey Knights, check.
Paladins, Check
Terminator Troops, Check.
Grey Knight Terminator Troops, Check.

I already outlined these all in my first post.

Take X to make Y Grey Knights.
Take Z to make Y Troops.

As for purifiers, I'll admit I've forgotten what they are, sorry. Mostly gone through the GK book for the background moreso the rules (since I don't play them etc.)

You're missing the point. You wouldn't be able to have both Grey Knight Terminators in the same army as PA Grey Knights in the example you outlined. At this rate you're going to end up with a Codex that takes ages to read and understand what you have to do to unlock stuff and what isn't allowed with that. Not to mention it'd allow for stuff like Black Templars Librarians which shouldn't exist.

I think the rules (and the fluff) are fairly irrelevant to this.

Do Dark Angel offer potential for some unique mini's to sell? Answer: Yes. Robed Marines, Native American Terminators, Robed Bikers, etc.. . There is enough "different" sculpting potential and an exisitng fan-base there to make Dark Angels worthwhile as their "own release".

Rules and Fluff can be changed. If Dark Angels need to be "more different" in the rules, they'll add something unique in the vein of TWC, Sang. Guard or Dreadknight. If not, just as well. The Codex ultimately is there to sell the Minis.

Zweischneid wrote:I think the rules (and the fluff) are fairly irrelevant to this.

Do Dark Angel offer potential for some unique mini's to sell? Answer: Yes. Robed Marines, Native American Terminators, Robed Bikers, etc.. . There is enough "different" sculpting potential and an exisitng fan-base there to make Dark Angels worthwhile as their "own release".

Rules and Fluff can be changed. If Dark Angels need to be "more different" in the rules, they'll add something unique in the vein of TWC, Sang. Guard or Dreadknight. If not, just as well. The Codex ultimately is there to sell the Minis.

Agreed. The point is the current DA codex is so underwhelming it is an afterthought of an army. With the exception of playing a DW army,
you have so much more cost savings and flexibility doing a generic Codex: SM based army. Just buy the robes and say you are playing a regular SM chapter.

But I would like to examine the potential changes to keep the DA unique and playable.

1. No Sternguard or Vanguard Vets. This is at first a detriment but look at it as an opportunity to diverge. Make Ravenwing the equivalent of Vanguard vets the +1 A would help differentiate it from a standard SM bike army also the potential for power weaponing up the unit would be good. No sternguard that is fine, they don't use the specialized ammo but again perhaps this could be added to the Deathwing stormbolter - again it makes for a unique termie. Before you pooh-pooh it as OP think about it, this is a termie with SB and PF under the current system there is no reason not to spam SS + TH termies. This gives a DA the reason to exist.

2. Give them a chapter trait. Up until the last codex, DA were always stubborn with the DW and RW being fearless. Perhaps this is something that should be brought back. Or a new one- again with making the DA the ultimate firepower based marines instead of just another skull crusher - perhaps a "Cool underfire" much like SW counterattack, the DA have the option of firing at an opponent instead of making HTH attacks - the risk is fail the leadership test and you get nothing. To avoid it being OP, limit it to assault, pistol and rapid fireweapons. So the devastator only has the option of firing their pistols.

3. Include the options that other chapters have for vehicles and update the costs. Increase the razorback options and landspeeder options.
Perhaps include all the dreadnought options. Definitely increase a librarians Ld to 10.

4. Another thought on the theme of difference - the old fluff was that the DA had a higher average of special weapons particularly plasma.
Now in the old days, the DA were the ONLY chapter that could take PC on tacticals but like most things, it was added and absorbed into the SM codex. A way to rate this out however exists, reduce plasma pistols and rifles to a cost of 10 and perhaps plasma cannons reduced.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

You're missing the point. You wouldn't be able to have both Grey Knight Terminators in the same army as PA Grey Knights in the example you outlined. At this rate you're going to end up with a Codex that takes ages to read and understand what you have to do to unlock stuff and what isn't allowed with that. Not to mention it'd allow for stuff like Black Templars Librarians which shouldn't exist.

Librarian == Veterans become GK.
SCX == Veterans become troops.
Veterans == Can take terminator armor for +XX.

Grey Knights in pa as troops.
Grey Knights in tda as troops.

And as I said, it's up to the player to decide if they want to play to the fluff (not take a librarian in their BT) or play to the rules. It's roughly the same as the Chaos dex. Sure you could play a Thousand Sons army with a nurgle Demon Prince. Obviously this wouldn't be ideal, but it can/will/does happen. Or you can approach it like the black legion where some conflicts require multiple chapters to work together (armaggeddon for example).

But like I said at the end of the post, it really doesn't matter anymore. It's clear I can come up with a scenario for every unit with little effort, but it doesn't change the fact that GW will never combine the books as the above poster said. They make money. Players like reading the background. Players want their marines to be feel unique (even though they aren't).

The advantages to it being in a single book clearly outweighs the disadvantages. But it doesn't really seem to matter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DAaddict wrote:

Zweischneid wrote:I think the rules (and the fluff) are fairly irrelevant to this.

Do Dark Angel offer potential for some unique mini's to sell? Answer: Yes. Robed Marines, Native American Terminators, Robed Bikers, etc.. . There is enough "different" sculpting potential and an exisitng fan-base there to make Dark Angels worthwhile as their "own release".

Rules and Fluff can be changed. If Dark Angels need to be "more different" in the rules, they'll add something unique in the vein of TWC, Sang. Guard or Dreadknight. If not, just as well. The Codex ultimately is there to sell the Minis.

Agreed. The point is the current DA codex is so underwhelming it is an afterthought of an army. With the exception of playing a DW army,
you have so much more cost savings and flexibility doing a generic Codex: SM based army. Just buy the robes and say you are playing a regular SM chapter.

But I would like to examine the potential changes to keep the DA unique and playable.

1. No Sternguard or Vanguard Vets. This is at first a detriment but look at it as an opportunity to diverge. Make Ravenwing the equivalent of Vanguard vets the +1 A would help differentiate it from a standard SM bike army also the potential for power weaponing up the unit would be good. No sternguard that is fine, they don't use the specialized ammo but again perhaps this could be added to the Deathwing stormbolter - again it makes for a unique termie. Before you pooh-pooh it as OP think about it, this is a termie with SB and PF under the current system there is no reason not to spam SS + TH termies. This gives a DA the reason to exist.

2. Give them a chapter trait. Up until the last codex, DA were always stubborn with the DW and RW being fearless. Perhaps this is something that should be brought back. Or a new one- again with making the DA the ultimate firepower based marines instead of just another skull crusher - perhaps a "Cool underfire" much like SW counterattack, the DA have the option of firing at an opponent instead of making HTH attacks - the risk is fail the leadership test and you get nothing. To avoid it being OP, limit it to assault, pistol and rapid fireweapons. So the devastator only has the option of firing their pistols.

3. Include the options that other chapters have for vehicles and update the costs. Increase the razorback options and landspeeder options.
Perhaps include all the dreadnought options. Definitely increase a librarians Ld to 10.

4. Another thought on the theme of difference - the old fluff was that the DA had a higher average of special weapons particularly plasma.
Now in the old days, the DA were the ONLY chapter that could take PC on tacticals but like most things, it was added and absorbed into the SM codex. A way to rate this out however exists, reduce plasma pistols and rifles to a cost of 10 and perhaps plasma cannons reduced.

1.) I personally hope they keep a vet squad if only for the aesthetics of a fully robed unit rocking killer weapons. A previous poster mentioned they could get 2 handed power weapons for example. I would take this unit even if it failed hard compared to everything else in the elites section just to have fully robed and hooded marines with 2 handed power swords laying into the enemy. As for the specialized ammo for terminators, that seems like a reasonable thing to consider.

2.) A global special rule would be nice. If you wanted to keep them with the ranged specialist type feel you could do some really interesting things. Like all DA get a special rule where they may move and still fire their heavy weapons but they may not move or shoot the following turn, but may still assault. Other small things would be like grenades on terminators.

3.) This is an issue with them having so many marine books. All marine books regardless of when they came out or who they belong to should still have the same stat line for every unit in every book. Do things like have wargear options to modify it higher if a unit needs it (halbreds for GK or example). But this is largely a problem between editions and not so much between books released around the same time.

4.) Was this ever written in the fluff? I thought it was just players assuming this is why they had plasma in tacticals/dev units back in the day; them being the first legion and all. Another option that was discussed earlier was to remove things like the get hot rule for dark angels. This would show them getting first crack at new weapons coming off the assembly line for example.

I just hope we see a robed assault unit with 2handed weapons, a robed plastic terminator pack, a chaplain dreadnaught, plasma landraider, and new fluff.

Nvs wrote: But I would like to examine the potential changes to keep the DA unique and playable.

1. No Sternguard or Vanguard Vets. This is at first a detriment but look at it as an opportunity to diverge. Make Ravenwing the equivalent of Vanguard vets the +1 A would help differentiate it from a standard SM bike army also the potential for power weaponing up the unit would be good. No sternguard that is fine, they don't use the specialized ammo but again perhaps this could be added to the Deathwing stormbolter - again it makes for a unique termie. Before you pooh-pooh it as OP think about it, this is a termie with SB and PF under the current system there is no reason not to spam SS + TH termies. This gives a DA the reason to exist.

2. Give them a chapter trait. Up until the last codex, DA were always stubborn with the DW and RW being fearless. Perhaps this is something that should be brought back. Or a new one- again with making the DA the ultimate firepower based marines instead of just another skull crusher - perhaps a "Cool underfire" much like SW counterattack, the DA have the option of firing at an opponent instead of making HTH attacks - the risk is fail the leadership test and you get nothing. To avoid it being OP, limit it to assault, pistol and rapid fireweapons. So the devastator only has the option of firing their pistols.

3. Include the options that other chapters have for vehicles and update the costs. Increase the razorback options and landspeeder options.
Perhaps include all the dreadnought options. Definitely increase a librarians Ld to 10.

4. Another thought on the theme of difference - the old fluff was that the DA had a higher average of special weapons particularly plasma.
Now in the old days, the DA were the ONLY chapter that could take PC on tacticals but like most things, it was added and absorbed into the SM codex. A way to rate this out however exists, reduce plasma pistols and rifles to a cost of 10 and perhaps plasma cannons reduced.

1.) I personally hope they keep a vet squad if only for the aesthetics of a fully robed unit rocking killer weapons. A previous poster mentioned they could get 2 handed power weapons for example. I would take this unit even if it failed hard compared to everything else in the elites section just to have fully robed and hooded marines with 2 handed power swords laying into the enemy. As for the specialized ammo for terminators, that seems like a reasonable thing to consider.

2.) A global special rule would be nice. If you wanted to keep them with the ranged specialist type feel you could do some really interesting things. Like all DA get a special rule where they may move and still fire their heavy weapons but they may not move or shoot the following turn, but may still assault. Other small things would be like grenades on terminators.

3.) This is an issue with them having so many marine books. All marine books regardless of when they came out or who they belong to should still have the same stat line for every unit in every book. Do things like have wargear options to modify it higher if a unit needs it (halbreds for GK or example). But this is largely a problem between editions and not so much between books released around the same time.

4.) Was this ever written in the fluff? I thought it was just players assuming this is why they had plasma in tacticals/dev units back in the day; them being the first legion and all. Another option that was discussed earlier was to remove things like the get hot rule for dark angels. This would show them getting first crack at new weapons coming off the assembly line for example.

I just hope we see a robed assault unit with 2handed weapons, a robed plastic terminator pack, a chaplain dreadnaught, plasma landraider, and new fluff.

Formosa wrote:The problem with DA isn't the lack of diference with C:sm, its a poor design philosophy, DA could easily gain alot of new units and divert from the Codex astartes, more so than any other chapter and still fit the fluff, they are THE most secretive chapter, and are perfectly willing to "silence" anyone who see's too much.
This allows for a whole new string of units, and is more justifiable than say.. the sanguinor or the space wolf space squirrel

That applies to almost everything.

The Raven Guard, for example, are all stealth based, and love lightning claws, and so should have even their basic tac squads modified to suit this.

Imperial Fists spend all their time duelling, and using the pain glove, so should have +1WS and FNP if we took fluff into account. They'd also be able to build cover, and field more devastators.

Salamanders would have combi-flamers for just about everyone, and all their weapons would be master-crafted and all their armour would be artificer.

Iron Hands would have augmetics across the board, and they would all be able to repair vehicles, not just the TEcH Mehreens!

Blood Angels would occasionally become death company in the middle of battle, and when the Sanguinor shows up, they would all be cured of the BR/RT. Plus Sanguinor would be EVEN MORE powerful. And Mephiston would auto-win.

And White Scars would all have fleet of foot, and would be able to field bikes for WAAAY cheaper.

There is no way they could create codices for every chapter, so WHY ARE THEY TRYING?!?

Also: they are NOT the most secretive space marines. Alpha Legion is WAY more secretive, as are the Legion of the Damned and even Iktinos' Flock are more secretive.

I think we all have a short memory. Codex BA (the download edition and prior) was almost non-existent in play until it got revamped. SW was quite limited in play unitl the new codex came out and now it is probably the most popular. If you recall, Codex: DA when it first came out offered some mild benefits and thus remained playable. However that went out the window with the release of the current Codex: SM and what has followed has made it worse.

Amazingly Codex: BT remains somewhat competitive but look at Codex DA today and it offers about 4 things
1. Special wpns in the first half of a demi-squad.
2. Techmarines outside of the FOC.
3. Buffer Chaplains
4. The deathwing.

All the other "bonuses" have been assimilated into Codex: SM and in most cases enhanced to the point that Codex: DA is non-competitive. (65 a speeder, Sammiel 200pts of uselessness, idiot savant librarians, limited and overcosted predator options, etc.)

You know a codex is bad when you go - "I could build it with codex X but if I build it with codex y I am giving up very little and will field more stuff."

Bottomline, where codex DA is today is it is better to field robed generic marines unless you intend to do a Deathwing. That in and of itself is poor reason to maintain a separate codex. GW is at a decision point, it could add 4 pages to the SM codex and assimilate all that is codex DA or it could breathe new life into it. Definitely the latter option will take more effort but it also offers the benefit of reinvigorating sales of DA stuff as well as the 30+ $$ to buy the new codex.

DAaddict wrote:
Amazingly Codex: BT remains somewhat competitive but look at Codex DA today and it offers about 4 things
1. Special wpns in the first half of a demi-squad.
2. Techmarines outside of the FOC.
3. Buffer Chaplains
4. The deathwing.

So more or less the same thing Templars have going for us. You lose some CC potential and the godly Land Speeder Typhoons in exchange for troop Terminators with FNP, Techmarines outside the FOC (which isn't too amazing TBH) and Librarians (sure, they suck, but still ). It's interesting how the melee parts of the BT is the one thing keeping a Templar gunline above a DA one (and if this sounds sarcastic I apologize, I'm genuinely interested of this).

True Grit.

Yeah. Remember that ability for DA/Death Guard? Where they can fire their bolters in CC?

Yeah. We'll take that back.

Wasn't true grit a space wolf thing?

Honestly don't remember as those things were back in 3rd edition.

Kanluwen wrote:True Grit.

Yeah. Remember that ability for DA/Death Guard? Where they can fire their bolters in CC?

Yeah. We'll take that back.

Well, it wasn't so much firing bolters in CC as allowing a bolter to be used as though it were a 2nd CCW in CC, but not getting bonus charge attacks. It was basically a hamfisted mechanic to get around the old rules about limits on 1H/2H wargear for models. I also don't remember DA's having it, am I missing something? I remember SW's and Death Guard having it, but not Dark Angels.

Vaktathi wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:True Grit.

Yeah. Remember that ability for DA/Death Guard? Where they can fire their bolters in CC?

Yeah. We'll take that back.

Well, it wasn't so much firing bolters in CC as allowing a bolter to be used as though it were a 2nd CCW in CC, but not getting bonus charge attacks. It was basically a hamfisted mechanic to get around the old rules about limits on 1H/2H wargear for models. I also don't remember DA's having it, am I missing something? I remember SW's and Death Guard having it, but not Dark Angels.

It was a SW thing. It allowed a non-charging marine to count a bolter as CCW. So a marine would charge with 2 attacks and then get 2 attacks in each succeeding round due to having 2 CCW.

DAaddict wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:True Grit.

Yeah. Remember that ability for DA/Death Guard? Where they can fire their bolters in CC?

Yeah. We'll take that back.

Well, it wasn't so much firing bolters in CC as allowing a bolter to be used as though it were a 2nd CCW in CC, but not getting bonus charge attacks. It was basically a hamfisted mechanic to get around the old rules about limits on 1H/2H wargear for models. I also don't remember DA's having it, am I missing something? I remember SW's and Death Guard having it, but not Dark Angels.

It was a SW thing. It allowed a non-charging marine to count a bolter as CCW. So a marine would charge with 2 attacks and then get 2 attacks in each succeeding round due to having 2 CCW.

Grey Knights had it too.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

DAaddict wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:True Grit.

Yeah. Remember that ability for DA/Death Guard? Where they can fire their bolters in CC?

Yeah. We'll take that back.

Well, it wasn't so much firing bolters in CC as allowing a bolter to be used as though it were a 2nd CCW in CC, but not getting bonus charge attacks. It was basically a hamfisted mechanic to get around the old rules about limits on 1H/2H wargear for models. I also don't remember DA's having it, am I missing something? I remember SW's and Death Guard having it, but not Dark Angels.

It was a SW thing. It allowed a non-charging marine to count a bolter as CCW. So a marine would charge with 2 attacks and then get 2 attacks in each succeeding round due to having 2 CCW.

Grey Knights had it too.

Yeah. I was misremembering, had to find my DA Codex again.

I could have swore they suggested it as some point as a thing for Dark Angels but eh.

Still. I want it. Bolters in CC? Definitely goes alongside the 'intractable' nature of the Unforgiven.

FYI the DA plasma thing was new to 3rd Ed and doesn't have any true fluff supporting it beyond a think a quick blurb in the 3rd Ed codex about them having a lot of it.

The 2nd Ed Angels of Death codex is still where a large portion of where the Dark Angels were established rule and in large part fluff wise. With the exception of the whole Plasma thing they've basically lost fluff, rules, and distictiveness from there.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Formosa wrote:The problem with DA isn't the lack of diference with C:sm, its a poor design philosophy, DA could easily gain alot of new units and divert from the Codex astartes, more so than any other chapter and still fit the fluff, they are THE most secretive chapter, and are perfectly willing to "silence" anyone who see's too much.
This allows for a whole new string of units, and is more justifiable than say.. the sanguinor or the space wolf space squirrel

That applies to almost everything.

The Raven Guard, for example, are all stealth based, and love lightning claws, and so should have even their basic tac squads modified to suit this.

Imperial Fists spend all their time duelling, and using the pain glove, so should have +1WS and FNP if we took fluff into account. They'd also be able to build cover, and field more devastators.

Salamanders would have combi-flamers for just about everyone, and all their weapons would be master-crafted and all their armour would be artificer.

Iron Hands would have augmetics across the board, and they would all be able to repair vehicles, not just the TEcH Mehreens!

Blood Angels would occasionally become death company in the middle of battle, and when the Sanguinor shows up, they would all be cured of the BR/RT. Plus Sanguinor would be EVEN MORE powerful. And Mephiston would auto-win.

And White Scars would all have fleet of foot, and would be able to field bikes for WAAAY cheaper.

There is no way they could create codices for every chapter, so WHY ARE THEY TRYING?!?

Also: they are NOT the most secretive space marines. Alpha Legion is WAY more secretive, as are the Legion of the Damned and even Iktinos' Flock are more secretive.

none of the spheel you have just let off has any bearing on what i said.
Alpha LEGION are not a chapter
LEGION of the dammed are not a chapter
Iktinos flock? you got me there, never hear of them.

Dark Angels are the most secretive CHAPTER, circles within circles

Why don't they just make bikes and terminators core to begin with, make devastator squads with cheap plasma cannons (and twin link all plasma), bring back the SCs and Cypher, get better psychic stuff and maybe a few other things. Just my thoughts.