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Since when has a Great Company numbered 1000?

vonjankmon wrote:If you think Marines are the biggest problem 40K I envy you.

And how would combining all the marine chapters into one fix anything? You wouldn't see more codexes or anything. The limiting factor on new codexes are the models, not the books. They could churn out every book in a year if they wanted, GW just made the decision to release new models with each codex release.

Combining them wouldn't reduce the amount of SM players at all either.

It wouldn't make the game require any more or less skill to play.

I just don't understand what you think it will accomplish other than making you feel good and pissing off a lot of players who enjoy the fluff of different marine armies.

I've played against 4 different DE players now and have played plenty of Eldar armies in 5th. And I'm talking about the armies in 5th Ed, not 3rd, 2nd etc. I mean going all the way back to 3rd edition to try and prove some point about eldar?

*EDIT* This topic falls into the it doesn't affect you so why do you feel the need to ruin everyone elses fun? If you're upset at the rules/armies in 40K take it up with GW, don't take it out on those of us that enjoy a different aspect of the hobby than you happen to.

You have some of the most simple (and horribly mistaken) views I have encountered in awhile...

You think It takes them years to figure out how to change the aesthetic of a model? They could work on models for every army at the same time, as they DO have more than 1 sculptor. It is simply the way GW works that makes them not do it, as the board of directors is horribly, horribly tainted by chaos.

And the fact that they've spent almost all of 5ed updating marines means that sisters of battle prbly won't get updated till ~6ed. Imagine that. THREE EDITIONS BEHIND.

I would be like using warmahordes rules for 40k.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Nvs wrote:No different rules depending on what chapter you play. There is one set of rules that encompesses everything and it's up to the player to decide if he wants to play his list to win, or wants to play it toward a specific chapter.

Now how do you handle Grey Knights as troops you ask? You take special character 1 which makes a unit of veterans troops and a librarian HQ to make your veterans GK.

And keep in mind that this was done on the fly without any money, motivation, or time on the topic. It was merely to illustrate how easy it could be done.

So in other words: If your Chapter isn't competetive it sucks to be you! Yeah, that's OBVIOUSLY just as good as what we have now...

I've posed the question numerous times now... name me a unit you don't think could be transferred over to this system and I'll show you a unit that either a.) can in fact fit into the sytem or b.) shouldn't exist.

Khan beats Sammiel to the point of stupidity.
Deathwing is the only viable option.
Ravenwing landspeeders are too overpriced to make use of.

That said:

Now they could discard DA codex (which would not make me too happy) but I think they have an opportunity to not make a skull smasher SM chapter.(ala Ravenwing, Salamanders, Black Templars, Space Wolves and Blood Angels)Also I think part of the differentiation could be Ravenwing is a hybrid of biker squads and vanguard vets.

That would be my challenge to them to not make an OP codex but base it on firepower rather than CC prowess.

... Nevermind they could never do that.

DAaddict wrote:

... Nevermind they could never do that.

Isn't that what was said about flying land raiders?

And flying librarian dreadnoughts -_-"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I would just like to point out that BT and DA are so marginally different that they have sub-tabs under "space marines" on the GW website, whereas Space Wolves and BA are unique enough to warrant their own tabs.

To be fair Space Wolves and Blood Angels were under the same tab till they got their 5th edition books

Nvs wrote:

I've posed the question numerous times now... name me a unit you don't think could be transferred over to this system and I'll show you a unit that either a.) can in fact fit into the sytem or b.) shouldn't exist.

Everything in fast assault and heavy support. You left those out.....
OtoH, your reply will consist of a) I'll edit this in afterwards or b) SM shall not have any FA or HS choices...

1hadhq wrote:

Nvs wrote:

I've posed the question numerous times now... name me a unit you don't think could be transferred over to this system and I'll show you a unit that either a.) can in fact fit into the sytem or b.) shouldn't exist.

Everything in fast assault and heavy support. You left those out.....
OtoH, your reply will consist of a) I'll edit this in afterwards or b) SM shall not have any FA or HS choices...

I've already done the heavy and fast attacks...

You know how I've done them? They're virtually the same in every codex. The few things that aren't I've already touched on...

Dreadknights, removed from existence and we'll try to forget they ever existed.
Thunderwolves and Thunderwolf Cavalry, removed from existence and we'll try to forget they ever existed (to be fair, maybe a space wolf special character should come with a unit of wolves)
Stormravens, removed from existence and we'll try to forget they ever existed.
Dreadknights, removed from existence and we'll try to forget they ever existed.

Baal can be an upgrade.
Crusader, an as yet unamed plasma variant, redeemer, all upgrades.

Now anything specific we should touch base on?

Nvs wrote:To be fair Space Wolves and Blood Angels were under the same tab till they got their 5th edition books

+1

I'd laugh if DA didn't get their own custom termie sculpts, some jetbike honor guard for sammy, or some sort of knightly CC oriented group. Not to mention their own set of special rules with titles like "sons of the lion" or "knights of caliban". Or making more use of watchers as some sort of upgrade for HQ's. There is tons of stuff that could set them apart from C:SM while still being fluffy whether or not people want to admit it.

Bottom line is GW will not alienate a portion of their player base that is larger than that of most/all xenos armies by cutting their codex. It just wont happen. It'd be a bigger mistake than the current price increases coinciding with the finecast release. Not to mention 4th was the age of simplifying rules and condensing so if they were going to cut codexes at any point in time it would have been then. Finally, look at all the people who never played BA/SW/GK/DE/IG that hopped on the bandwagon. Do you honestly think GW wouldn't want to keep riding that wave with another SM release? I trust GW to go where the money is and in that belief I feel pretty darn safe as a DA player.

Oh I don't think for an instant they'll ever condense them into a single book

It's just threads like these are highly polarizing and I, personally, don't like dealing with the kiddies who play Loganwing one week, deathwing the next, and grey knights the following.

I also pisses me off to no end seeing things like Dreadknights, Stormravens, and Thunderwolf cavalry getting dreamed up when Eldar don't have a titan, super heavy, flyer, etc in the works.

If I didn't already spend $500 on DE models I'd probably say to hell with it and pick up Dark Angels. But I don't like playing at a store only to see 75% of the tables made up with marine vs marine, and the remaining tables filled with marine players waiting for their opponent to walk through the door (who will more likely than not at the very least be a MEQ army if not marines also).

But if you were going to choose an army where a marine vs marine conflict would be a legitimate possibility, DA would be the one to do it with.

Nvs wrote:

Dreadknights, removed from existence and we'll try to forget they ever existed.
Thunderwolves and Thunderwolf Cavalry, removed from existence and we'll try to forget they ever existed (to be fair, maybe a space wolf special character should come with a unit of wolves)
Stormravens, removed from existence and we'll try to forget they ever existed.

Baal can be an upgrade.
Crusader, an as yet unamed plasma variant, redeemer, all upgrades.

Now anything specific we should touch base on?

Dreadknights: Why they are a good selling kit that a lot of people like?
Thunderwolves and Thunderwolf Cavalry: It's a little over the top but I know a ton of SW players love them, Cannis sells well I'm sure and when TWC get released I'm sure they will too.
Stormravens: Why they are a good selling kit that a lot of people like?

I've got a new idea. Lets drop Codex Space Marines all together that way everything will be a lot more unique compared to the other SM codexes. After all we're all about eliminating things that are "the same" and it would free up time for them to work on other books!

Do you see how stupid that sounds? Yet it's the same thing being leveled at everyone that enjoys having their own codex. Sisters are all metal and don't sell well compared to space marines and GK stole the inquisition we may as well phase them out too.

Can we all just accept these arguments are dumb and move on? (although this is always fun as a break from work lol)

Edit: Read your last post Nvs glad to see we are on the same page and I agree with you about the codex hopping. I've got over 5k points of DA so I know what army loyalty is. At the same time though with all of them switching all the time they are having a good time and I don't have to play against C:SM all the time(I get to play against blue BA) but at least the games feel different and it gives the store that nice surprise of oh whats he going to count those as. It's not how I choose to run my army but I'm not against others doing it. Diversity is good for the hobby in my opinion and that includes anyone that hops from codex to codex.

Droma wrote:

Nvs wrote:To be fair Space Wolves and Blood Angels were under the same tab till they got their 5th edition books

+1

I'd laugh if DA didn't get their own custom termie sculpts, some jetbike honor guard for sammy, or some sort of knightly CC oriented group. Not to mention their own set of special rules with titles like "sons of the lion" or "knights of caliban". Or making more use of watchers as some sort of upgrade for HQ's. There is tons of stuff that could set them apart from C:SM while still being fluffy whether or not people want to admit it.

Bottom line is GW will not alienate a portion of their player base that is larger than that of most/all xenos armies by cutting their codex. It just wont happen. It'd be a bigger mistake than the current price increases coinciding with the finecast release. Not to mention 4th was the age of simplifying rules and condensing so if they were going to cut codexes at any point in time it would have been then. Finally, look at all the people who never played BA/SW/GK/DE/IG that hopped on the bandwagon. Do you honestly think GW wouldn't want to keep riding that wave with another SM release? I trust GW to go where the money is and in that belief I feel pretty darn safe as a DA player.

@ your first paragraph, that can apply to just about every single chapter in the entire setting aside from smurfs. Imperial Fists could get "duelists", Salamanders could get squads with three or four flamers/meltas, Raven Guard would have the stealth rule across the board etc.

2. They've already alienated all the xenos players (pun not intended). If you add all the xenos players together, it is roughly equal to the number of SM players=they don't care. They want money. This is why IG are the kinda-but-still-not-as-much-as-SM poster boys, since they are expensive to play.

Droma wrote:

Nvs wrote:

Dreadknights, removed from existence and we'll try to forget they ever existed.
Thunderwolves and Thunderwolf Cavalry, removed from existence and we'll try to forget they ever existed (to be fair, maybe a space wolf special character should come with a unit of wolves)
Stormravens, removed from existence and we'll try to forget they ever existed.

Baal can be an upgrade.
Crusader, an as yet unamed plasma variant, redeemer, all upgrades.

Now anything specific we should touch base on?

Dreadknights: Why they are a good selling kit that a lot of people like?
Thunderwolves and Thunderwolf Cavalry: It's a little over the top but I know a ton of SW players love them, Cannis sells well I'm sure and when TWC get released I'm sure they will too.
Stormravens: Why they are a good selling kit that a lot of people like?

I've got a new idea. Lets drop Codex Space Marines all together that way everything will be a lot more unique compared to the other SM codexes. After all we're all about eliminating things that are "the same" and it would free up time for them to work on other books!

Do you see how stupid that sounds? Yet it's the same thing being leveled at everyone that enjoys having their own codex. Sisters are all metal and don't sell well compared to space marines and GK stole the inquisition we may as well phase them out too.

Can we all just accept these arguments are dumb and move on? (although this is always fun as a break from work lol)

You're hyperboling a little.

First of all, you haven't a clue if they're a good selling kit or not. Second of all, you're lying because that dreadknight is dreadful. Lastly, these things are all entirely out of place not only in a 40k setting, but certainly in a marine setting. They also don't do anything but say "well if xenos can have flying skimming gun boats, marines deserve them too". Or "if xenox can have cool monsterous creatures, marines deserve them to".

They shouldn't have ever been added. There comes a point where the line as a whole is rather complete and it's time to expand on the things that already exist and make them better, more finely tuned, and more balanced. Look at the fantasy line. Sure, TK got some crazy whacked out stuff. But the HE, DE, Dwarf, etc lines are all quite solid and don't get these random, out-of-place things ruining their game.

I never meant that we should fold all codex's into one, but I was just saying that DA could probably take it just fine, considering the minimal difference between them and the other codex chapters

Wardragoon wrote:I never meant that we should fold all codex's into one, but I was just saying that DA could probably take it just fine, considering the minimal difference between them and the other codex chapters

Look, it's either going to happen to them all, or it's simply not going to happen.

The game would be better off with a single codex.
The marines would be better off with a single codex.
The players would be better off with a single codex.

But I'll be damned if GW decides to shelve DA and allow a second founding chapter remain its own book! I do have some principles, and that my good sir, will not stand!

Nvs wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

Nvs wrote:

I've posed the question numerous times now... name me a unit you don't think could be transferred over to this system and I'll show you a unit that either a.) can in fact fit into the sytem or b.) shouldn't exist.

Everything in fast assault and heavy support. You left those out.....
OtoH, your reply will consist of a) I'll edit this in afterwards or b) SM shall not have any FA or HS choices...

I've already done the heavy and fast attacks...

You know how I've done them? They're virtually the same in every codex. The few things that aren't I've already touched on...

Dreadknights, removed from existence and we'll try to forget they ever existed.
Thunderwolves and Thunderwolf Cavalry, removed from existence and we'll try to forget they ever existed (to be fair, maybe a space wolf special character should come with a unit of wolves)
Stormravens, removed from existence and we'll try to forget they ever existed.
Dreadknights, removed from existence and we'll try to forget they ever existed.

Baal can be an upgrade.
Crusader, an as yet unamed plasma variant, redeemer, all upgrades.

Now anything specific we should touch base on?

Your post: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/374069.page#2902879
does not contain anything beyond HQ, Elite or troops. So NO FA or HS at all.

Plus, your SC may do gak about dreads, as dreads are not part of the list. Ok they could become troops if they existed.

Q:Can I have these psyker vehicles with blessed hull and maybe get the old anti-melta armor from C:armageddon too? No?

See, I don't miss you removed the dreaded knight twice just to make sure...
But, GW removing plastic kits from codices? Really?
Could you provide precedence for that to happen?

@Droma, you're crazy.

@im2random
Agreed on all fronts. It still doesn't really change my argument in any way.

#2 If you really think that then why are DE getting so many releases in a row? GW follows the money as I've stated, DE are selling so they get the toys. If it was all about SM don't you think they would have snuck in the release of SW wolf cav already? According to several rumors those sculpts are done and have been for a while but they haven't been released.

I'll go on to state almost everyone I know that's been in the hobby a few years has multiple armies. I'm one of the few I know that doesn't and that's because I chose to collect almost every option available to me from one codex instead. Amongst the people at my store I think I'm actually the only SM player, the rest are tyranids/orks/necrons/DE/Tau. I think you can find just about as much variety from any gaming place that isn't a GW store. GW stores I've noticed do tend to be primarily SM.

That was a jumble of words and I'm sure there is a point in there somewhere lol.

Edit: @NVS My argument was hyperbolic but so are the opposing arguments. I also disagree with you about how they shouldn't have created those kits. I see nothing wrong with them. Are they far fetched? Absolutely. Are they cool? I think so and I don't think I'm in the minority on that one. By the way you also didn't provide qualifications or sales numbers or survey data to suggest your opinion about those kits in particular and the combining of codexes in general is the majority opinion on the subject.

@NVS, Dreadnoughts as troops is just stupid. That would be ridiculously over-powered, imagine if my Tau could take XV8s as both troops and elites?

Methinks a troll is in our midst.

2/10

I'd wager the DE line was set in stone long before GW had any idea how well the line would do.

It's likely GW had planned for the releases to come like this because they wanted to give newer players the impression that the DE were an all new army. I mean unless you went to the website often or played at a GW every day for a month, chances are you'd probably never even seen a Dark Eldar player for the past decade if you haven't been playing as long.

It should also be said that the DE have gotten a grand total of what, 15 releases in the 15 years since they came out? 1 a year really isn't that bad for a non-marine army I suppose. But they kinda skipped 10-15 years in the middle there somewhere

@Droma, I have never, ever seen a gaming store that was dominated by xenos, ever. ever. EVER.

I have seven stores I visit, some regularly, some semi-regularly, and there are four dominated by SM, two by IG, and the last one is crawling with Nurgle players.

@im2

That's fine that you haven't seen it. They still exist(although a minority) but even your sentence proves things aren't dominated by SM. You have almost a 50/50 split between SM/non SM and combined with my experience it makes it 50/50.

Are SM players in the majority? Probably by 60/40 split. That 60 though is split between SM/BA/DA/BT/SW/GK compared to non SM sisters/IG/DE/Eldar/orks/tyranids/crons/tau/demons. CSM falls somewhere in the middle imo. As a whole SM are bigger than any individual non SM but combined they aren't that much bigger. I'd like to see some sales figures totaling revenue from all SM kits compared to all non-SM kits.

im2randomghgh wrote:@NVS, Dreadnoughts as troops is just stupid. That would be ridiculously over-powered, imagine if my Tau could take XV8s as both troops and elites?

Methinks a troll is in our midst.

2/10

*looks in tau rumor thread... spots rumor about a special character making crisis suits troops*
*looks in ork codex... spots that orks can magically make a dreadnaught a troop*

methinks you've lost your argument...

It should also be said that at 500 points, you'd likely be looking at a 3 model army if we take my post at face value, which I have repeatedly said you shouldn't because I took less time coming up with it than I did mocking you in this post...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Droma wrote:@im2

That's fine that you haven't seen it. They still exist(although a minority) but even your sentence proves things aren't dominated by SM. You have almost a 50/50 split between SM/non SM and combined with my experience it makes it 50/50.

Are SM players in the majority? Probably by 60/40 split. That 60 though is split between SM/BA/DA/BT/SW/GK compared to non SM sisters/IG/DE/Eldar/orks/tyranids/crons/tau/demons. CSM falls somewhere in the middle imo. As a whole SM are bigger than any individual non SM but combined they aren't that much bigger. I'd like to see some sales figures totaling revenue from all SM kits compared to all non-SM kits.

More than half of all sales go to SM
Half of the remaing go to IG
Half of the remaining go to Chaos
the remainder is split evenly between Sister, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, Necrons, Daemons, Orks.

What % is Eldar?

No seriously... what % is Eldar, I failed math something fierce!

im2randomghgh wrote:

You have some of the most simple (and horribly mistaken) views I have encountered in awhile...

You think It takes them years to figure out how to change the aesthetic of a model? They could work on models for every army at the same time, as they DO have more than 1 sculptor. It is simply the way GW works that makes them not do it, as the board of directors is horribly, horribly tainted by chaos.

And the fact that they've spent almost all of 5ed updating marines means that sisters of battle prbly won't get updated till ~6ed. Imagine that. THREE EDITIONS BEHIND.

I would be like using warmahordes rules for 40k.

Nice of you to go right for the personal attack and no address any of my points.

Again being that model creation is the limiting factor for GW releasing new things how does rolling all the SM into a single codex solve anything being that doing so does nothing to address the limiting factor for GW not tossing out every Xenos faction there is?

Again to me this just seems like a "I don't play SM but do play a bunch of non SM armies so I want my toys and screw everyone else." I can understand wanting your toys, cause hell I do too but it shouldn't be at the cost of other peoples enjoyment.

vonjankmon wrote:

Again to me this just seems like a "I don't play SM but do play a bunch of non SM armies so I want my toys and screw everyone else." I can understand wanting your toys, cause hell I do too but it shouldn't be at the cost of other peoples enjoyment.

that is very much QFT

vonjankmon wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

You have some of the most simple (and horribly mistaken) views I have encountered in awhile...

You think It takes them years to figure out how to change the aesthetic of a model? They could work on models for every army at the same time, as they DO have more than 1 sculptor. It is simply the way GW works that makes them not do it, as the board of directors is horribly, horribly tainted by chaos.

And the fact that they've spent almost all of 5ed updating marines means that sisters of battle prbly won't get updated till ~6ed. Imagine that. THREE EDITIONS BEHIND.

I would be like using warmahordes rules for 40k.

Nice of you to go right for the personal attack and no address any of my points.

Again being that model creation is the limiting factor for GW releasing new things how does rolling all the SM into a single codex solve anything being that doing so does nothing to address the limiting factor for GW not tossing out every Xenos faction there is?

Again to me this just seems like a "I don't play SM but do play a bunch of non SM armies so I want my toys and screw everyone else." I can understand wanting your toys, cause hell I do too but it shouldn't be at the cost of other peoples enjoyment.

I actually DO play SM as a secondary army. See the yellow fist in my sig?

And the only reason they don't release everything, and I mean the ONLY reason, is that they like to release stuff individually to give it it's time in the sun. Otherwise they would probably have updated every codex, with associated models, and prbly moved onto the next edition.

Nvs wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

Nvs wrote:

I've posed the question numerous times now... name me a unit you don't think could be transferred over to this system and I'll show you a unit that either a.) can in fact fit into the sytem or b.) shouldn't exist.

Everything in fast assault and heavy support. You left those out.....
OtoH, your reply will consist of a) I'll edit this in afterwards or b) SM shall not have any FA or HS choices...

I've already done the heavy and fast attacks...

You know how I've done them? They're virtually the same in every codex. The few things that aren't I've already touched on...

Dreadknights, removed from existence and we'll try to forget they ever existed.
Thunderwolves and Thunderwolf Cavalry, removed from existence and we'll try to forget they ever existed (to be fair, maybe a space wolf special character should come with a unit of wolves)
Stormravens, removed from existence and we'll try to forget they ever existed.
Dreadknights, removed from existence and we'll try to forget they ever existed.

Baal can be an upgrade.
Crusader, an as yet unamed plasma variant, redeemer, all upgrades.

Now anything specific we should touch base on?

So essentially, your argument is, "If we remove all of the stuff that wouldn't fit into the SM codex, all the variant chapters would fit into the SM codex!"

That's true. Also a bad idea.

Personally, I think someone running a list with the Emperor's Champion and AACNMO, as well as Sanguinary Priests, Lone Wolves, and Mephiston would be a perfect nightmare, but if it's what you're advocating, I'll be the first to try it.

Nvs wrote:

More than half of all sales go to SM
Half of the remaing go to IG
Half of the remaining go to Chaos
the remainder is split evenly between Sister, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, Necrons, Daemons, Orks.

What % is Eldar?

No seriously... what % is Eldar, I failed math something fierce!

Link to a page containing sales figures? Otherwise this is speculation.

Hell I'll try running Captain Stern with Mephiston, it makes plenty of sense