The B.A.T.F.E. shows it's intelligence yet again.

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**Lordhat**

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article/575514/201106151855/Deadly-Incompetence.htm

Scandal: Given the federal government's batting average, another failure should come as no surprise. But sometimes the incompetence strains believability. Case in point: "Operation Fast and Furious."

That's the code name for what the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives thought was a good idea: Put large numbers of semiautomatic weapons into the hands of Mexican gangsters, wait until they commit crimes, then track them.

Mexico is in the throes of a civil war that pits drug cartels against the government. The drug gangs are winning, having killed 34,000 people in the past five years.

So just on the surface, "Fast and Furious" has to be one of the dumbest operations ever carried out by a U.S. agency. Dig a little deeper, and it's also deadly.

Higher-ups at the ATF were warned repeatedly by their own agents that the plan was dangerous and unworkable. But the bosses ignored the warnings and even punished those who told them the obvious truth.

"Every time we questioned that order, there was punitive action," ATF agent John Dodson told the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, which is holding hearings on the operation.

Dodson's tale is as predictable as it is tragic. The ATF lost track of as many as 1,800 of the semiautomatic weapons it put into circulation. Many of the weapons were used to commit crimes. And two of them were found at the murder scene of an ATF agent.

"Operation Fast and Furious contributed to the increasing violence and deaths in Mexico," the committee's report said. "This result was regarded with giddy optimism by ATF supervisors hoping that guns recovered at crime scenes in Mexico would provide the nexus to straw (go-between) purchasers in Phoenix."

Said Darrell Issa, chairman of the House committee: "ATF agents have shared chilling accounts of being ordered to stand down as criminals in Arizona walked away with guns headed for Mexican drug cartels."

So who's responsible for this travesty? The Justice Department has been subpoenaed by the committee to provide information about the errant program, but it has refused to cooperate.

Top ATF officials have denied knowing details of the program. But it's clear from emails gathered by the committee that ATF acting director Kenneth Melson knew what was going on and didn't stop it.

Gun-control advocates try to demonize American gun owners by noting that two-thirds of Mexico's weapons come from north of the border. Now it turns out the U.S. government is the biggest gunrunner.

Thousands have died on both sides of the border as the drug war spreads. Deadly incompetence of the kind displayed by U.S. bureaucrats in Operation Fast and Furious must not go unpunished.

**Frazzled**

Contempt of Congress actions are in process against Holder's DOJ as we speak. Get the popcorn, this could get epic.

**SilverMK2**

The only way to stop crime is to arm the criminals!

Wait... what?

**KingCracker**

Are those guys complete fething morons?! Given, incredibly violent criminals, with proven itchy trigger fingers, weapons?

if there ever was one

**Mr. Burning**

This is a work of genius.

Truly, opponents and adversaries of the Unites States tremble at the epic awesomeness of US enforcement agencies.

**purplefood**

Wow...
That seems... so incredibly stupid it's not even possible...

**biccat**

Mr. Burning wrote:This is a work of genius.

Truly, opponents and adversaries of the Unites States tremble at the epic awesomeness of US enforcement agencies.

Even more concerning is the choice of operation names: "Operation Fast and Furious"

What's next, the Alan Parsons Project?

**romegamer**

this is the same government that is now running our healthcare....bend over, here comes the change

**Frazzled**

purplefood wrote:Wow...
That seems... so incredibly stupid it's not even possible...

it is, er was. It was only stopped when they traced one to the murder of a Federal Agent. Now its cover up time at the DOJ.

**purplefood**

Frazzled wrote:
purplefood wrote:Wow...
That seems... so incredibly stupid it's not even possible...

it is, er was. It was only stopped when they traced one to the murder of a Federal Agent. Now its cover up time at the DOJ.

So they only stopped after eople were killed?
If they couldn't see problems with this they need to have a purge or something...
Though if they had rigged the guns to explode when fired or had planted trackers on them i might have undertood it... though i wouldn't have agreed with it.

**Frazzled**

purplefood wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
purplefood wrote:Wow...
That seems... so incredibly stupid it's not even possible...

it is, er was. It was only stopped when they traced one to the murder of a Federal Agent. Now its cover up time at the DOJ.

So they only stopped after eople were killed?
If they couldn't see problems with this they need to have a purge or something...
Though if they had rigged the guns to explode when fired or had planted trackers on them i might have undertood it... though i wouldn't have agreed with it.

incorrect, they only stopped it when a US Federal Agent was killed (I can't remember if ICE, Border Patrol or ATF). There were over 800 of them tracked to crimes.

**purplefood**

Frazzled wrote:
purplefood wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
purplefood wrote:Wow...
That seems... so incredibly stupid it's not even possible...

it is, er was. It was only stopped when they traced one to the murder of a Federal Agent. Now its cover up time at the DOJ.

So they only stopped after eople were killed?
If they couldn't see problems with this they need to have a purge or something...
Though if they had rigged the guns to explode when fired or had planted trackers on them i might have undertood it... though i wouldn't have agreed with it.

incorrect, they only stopped it when a US Federal Agent was killed (I can't remember if ICE, Border Patrol or ATF). There were over 800 of them tracked to crimes.

Well that's even stupider...

**CptJake**

It was ICE. Agent Zapata was his name.

Assuming of course the REAL goal was to prove 'assault weapons' from the US are evil and contribute to Crime That Kills LE so that said weapons, and those who sell or buy them can be further regulated or legislated, maybe the operation did exactly what the ATF and DOJ crap bags hoped. Right up unitl they got caught as the weapon provider...

Not that the winners at DOJ or ATF would ever let politics dictate operations...

Jake

**Frazzled**

Now you're just wearing an aluminum hat.

Doesn't mean you're wrong of course...

**CptJake**

I know... And I really don't believe it either, but between Sec Holder and the ATF, they just ooze reasons to expect that type of stunt.

**Major Malfunction**

What is needed here is the head of Eric Holder on a pike. He's clearly looking for fodder to re institute the Clinton assault weapon ban. Now the gig is up and he's going to let his lackeys take the heat.

**4M2A**

I would have backed it if they had put trackers in them, but just giving them guns? How does that help at all?

**Kilkrazy**

They gave them guns? They didn't even sell them the guns?

**LordofHats**

This is possibly one of the funniest and saddest acts by a government agency I have ever read.

**Frazzled**

Kilkrazy wrote:They gave them guns? They didn't even sell them the guns?

Worse. They helped BG's illegally buy firearms from lawful gun dealers. when the gun dealers reported the attempted transactions, they were told (several times) to continue doing it by the Feds.

**filbert**

Just to go ever so slightly OT, when did they add the 'E'?

I always though it was B.A.T.F.

Edit. Wiki to the rescue. Disregard...

**SilverMK2**

filbert wrote:Just to go ever so slightly OT, when did they add the 'E'?

I always though it was B.A.T.F.

Edit. Wiki to the rescue. Disregard...

They added the "E" when they started letting 'eejits run the organisation

**dajobe**

I love my guns and am skeptical towards heavy gun control, but this...this is not intelligent, whoever thought this was a good idea should be prosecuted

**Andrew1975**

What kind of morons do we have running this show. I would be so pissed if I was Mexico. First the US is denying that the majority of Mexico's illegal weapons come from the US, now we find out that we are actually providing them. Shouldn't arming criminals in another county be considered tantamount to an act of war? These guys need to be strung up.

**Mr. Burning**

Guns don't kill people, BATFE do! (indirectly, by people with guns supplied with the help of BATFE and various other governmental departments).

Gun crime, together, we'll crack it!

**CptJake**

Andrew1975 wrote: I would be so pissed if I was Mexico. First the US is denying that the majority of Mexico's illegal weapons come from the US, now we find out that we are actually providing them. Shouldn't arming criminals in another county be considered tantamount to an act of war?

As a matter of fact, most guns illegally used in Mexico are NOT from the US. The only numbers you can probably show are guns the Mexican Gov't has submitted to the US for checking, and yes, most of those (but not all) do indeed come from the US, which is why the GOM has us run their serial numbers.

That is NOT most of the guns illegally in mexico, nor even the majority of guns confiscated in Mexico. Guns are a lot cheaper and easier to obtain from Central and South America, and can come in full auto a lot easier than the US. RPGs and such, again, from south, not the US. And by the way, many of the US weapons happen to have been stolen from , lost by or sold by GOM LE and military who we have helped equip.

GOM = Gov't of Mexico

Jake

**Andrew1975**

CptJake wrote:
Andrew1975 wrote: I would be so pissed if I was Mexico. First the US is denying that the majority of Mexico's illegal weapons come from the US, now we find out that we are actually providing them. Shouldn't arming criminals in another county be considered tantamount to an act of war?

As a matter of fact, most guns illegally used in Mexico are NOT from the US. The only numbers you can probably show are guns the Mexican Gov't has submitted to the US for checking, and yes, most of those (but not all) do indeed come from the US, which is why the GOM has us run their serial numbers.

That is NOT most of the guns illegally in mexico, nor even the majority of guns confiscated in Mexico. Guns are a lot cheaper and easier to obtain from Central and South America, and can come in full auto a lot easier than the US. RPGs and such, again, from south, not the US. And by the way, many of the US weapons happen to have been stolen from , lost by or sold by GOM LE and military who we have helped equip.

GOM = Gov't of Mexico

Jake

Yeah, sorry. Didn't mean to say that the majority of actually weapons comes from the US. Those submitted that still have serial numbers are from the us. Seeing as most of the weapons have been scrubbed of their serial numbers it would be wrong to say that they come from the US. I was more remarking on the stance that the US is not responsible for the guns (which they many not be), and then actually providing guns to the cartels. I understand it was supposed to be a sting operation, but still pretty stupid.

The way I see it Mexico has been going out of it's way to criticize US policy. They do little to stop drugs and illegal immigrants, they actively criticize US immigration policy, both legal and illegal, while enforcing much stricter immigration policy on their own soil. That being said. Providing the drug cartels with weapons is just going to give them another finger to point at the US.

**Stormrider**

Frazzled wrote:Now you're just wearing an aluminum hat.

Doesn't mean you're wrong of course...

Of course he isn't wrong, this is purely intentional. This is a fan dance to get the American public afraid of "Assault Weapons" again.

This DOJ is so crooked that if they ate nails they'd gak out corkscrews.

**Lordhat**

filbert wrote:Just to go ever so slightly OT, when did they add the 'E'?

I always though it was B.A.T.F.

Edit. Wiki to the rescue. Disregard...

Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_of_Alcohol,_Tobacco,_Firearms_and_Explosives wrote: In the wake of the terrorist attack on the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001, President George W. Bush signed into law the Homeland Security Act of 2002. In addition to the creation of the Department of Homeland Security, the law shifted ATF from the Department of the Treasury to the Department of Justice. The agency's name was changed to Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives. However, the agency still was referred to as the "ATF" for all purposes. Additionally, the task of collection of federal tax revenue derived from the production of tobacco and alcohol products and the regulatory function related to protecting the public in issues related to the production of alcohol, previously handled by the Bureau of Internal Revenue as well as by ATF, was transferred to the newly established Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau (TTB), which remained within the Treasury Department. These changes took effect January 24, 2003.

**Frazzled**

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/exposed-the-secret-guns-sting-that-backfired-on-the-us-2297924.html

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/06/17/carney_obama_did_not_know_about_or_authorize_border_gunrunning_operation.html