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I also have a list that i could use some feedback on. Trying for competitive play and thought about smite spam. Thank you in advance.

Supreme command tsons
Arhiman on disk
Death Hex, Doom Bolt, Temporal Manip.

Deamon prince w/ wings Tsons Relic (Helm of many eyes)
Diabolical Str, Warptime

Deamon prince w/ wings
Prescience, Weavers of Fate

Batallion Chaos Demons Tzeentch
LOC- Rod of Sorcery, Everstave Warlord, Born of Sorcery
Bolt of Change, , Gaze of fate, Infernal gateway

Fluxmaster - Staff of Change
Flickering Flames, Boon of change

Pink Horrors x23 Demonic Icon
Pink Horrors x23 Demonic Icon
Pink Horrors x23 Demonic Icon

Super-Heavy Detachment Renegade Knights
Armigers helverin
Armigers helverin
Armigers Warglaive

Blueguy203 wrote:
I also have a list that i could use some feedback on. Trying for competitive play and thought about smite spam. Thank you in advance.

Supreme command tsons
Arhiman on disk
Death Hex, Doom Bolt, Temporal Manip.

Deamon prince w/ wings Tsons Relic (Helm of many eyes)
Diabolical Str, Warptime

Deamon prince w/ wings
Prescience, Weavers of Fate

Batallion Chaos Demons Tzeentch
LOC- Rod of Sorcery, Everstave Warlord, Born of Sorcery
Bolt of Change, , Gaze of fate, Infernal gateway

Fluxmaster - Staff of Change
Flickering Flames, Boon of change

Pink Horrors x23 Demonic Icon
Pink Horrors x23 Demonic Icon
Pink Horrors x23 Demonic Icon

Super-Heavy Detachment Renegade Knights
Armigers helverin
Armigers helverin
Armigers Warglaive

Just my thoughts, but:
LoC seem a bit overcosted for how quickly they can die. They do get a nice bonus though, so not sure. Magnus might be better?

Pink horrors seem actually kind of bad for smite spam as they can only roll 1d6 to cast. Seems like taking heralds might be better. Though 4++ on a big blob is nice.

I have had good luck with loc with impossible robe and save strat. But i understand why people are saying drop him. How is this? Note : leaving spells out because they can change game to game.

Chaos undivided demons detachment-

Changecaster
Deamon prince of khorne w/ skullreaver, wings

27 bloodletters w/ icon and instrument
3 nurglings
3 nurglings

6 flamers

10 furries w/ mark of nurgle


Tsons supreme command detachment

Ahriman on disk
Deamon prince of tzeentch w/ helm of 3rd eye
Deamon prince of tzeentch w/ wings, warlord w/ aetherstride


Deamons of slaanesh

Deamon prince of slaanesh w/ wings
Deamon prince of slaanesh w/ wings

10 demonettes
10 demonettes
10 demonettes

5 seekers


This gives more bodies starting on the table to protect vs t1 shooting my deamon princes (after turn 1 i have little cares about protection)

Its why i liked the loc with the impossible robe, he was going to be the end the end have to target because he protects the princes idea. But this list still has a lot of power and more options going for it.

if you dont have the proper models i cant help you a lot, play 20 horrors and 20 bloodletters is bit risky for horrors can be ok btw, as i said 1 single model loss and i lost bonus, 38 shots instead 60 for a unit with ab 4+ is a huge loss, same for bloodetters hit at 3+ instead of 2+ makes a big difference between annhilate target or not and Bl arent made to last long they must hit as hard as they can. If ur intention is hit Ik's 20 bl aren't the right choice you will sure lost some from overwatch, average a crusader with 12 gatling+2d6 cannon+6 stubber shots would kill at least 2-3 bloodletters enough to lost ur +1 to hit, i dont count what a castellan can do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
aethrstride is not a decent trait, better +1 save or high magister, flamers are bit meh, furies as well. Seems likeur trying to build a competitve list with the model you own, cause 5 seekers has no sense, or you play a large blob or dont play them at all .When you face serious competiive lists you get in troubles with that list, imho.

Pink horrors seem actually kind of bad for smite spam as they can only roll 1d6 to cast. Seems like taking heralds might be better. Though 4++ on a big blob is nice.

you dont take pink horrors for smite but for the dakka they can deliver, 23+23+23 like in that list are "only" 207 shots re roling 1's to hit str 4 and one of units can have +1 to wound.

I have plenty of bloodletters, but only 20 pinks. I expect to lose the bonus after a turn its true unfortunately. The seekers and furies are there because 1. I have them and 2. I dont know what to spend the next 200 pts i have left on. I need something that can soak up fire inbetween my dp's and the enemy turn 1 if i don't get it which i never plan on getting. I am at 1759 pts with what i know i want (arhiman, 2 ts princes, 2 slaanesh princes, khorne prince, 30 demonettes, 20 horrors, nurglings, changecaster) but i just dont know where the other points should go.

may i ask what models you have available?

Sure.
For chaos -
HQ :
7 different Deamon Princes (I just love the different models)
Changling
Changecaster
Herald of Slaanesh on Steed
The Masque of Slaanesh (really considered putting this one in as warlord for a long time, so cheap but effective)
Lord of Change
Bloodthirster
Keeper of Secrets
Skull Master
Skull Keeper
Karanak

Troops :
36 Bloodletters
20 Pink Horrors
30 Demonettes
4 Nurglings (looking to get more)

Elites :
9 Flamers of Tzeentch
1 Fiend of Slaanesh (need more, but don't care for model so..)

Fast Attack :
10 Flesh hounds
5 Plauge Drones
10 Furies (Really Khorne based, bloodletters with wings)
2 Screamers (gifts of the bits box as it were)
5 Seekers

Heavy Support : None

For Thousand Sons -

Ahriman
Ahriman on Disk
Deamon Princes
Sorcerer in Term Armor

50 Rubrics
19 Tzaangors with blades

Tzaangor Shaman
Hellbrute X 3

5 Chaos Spawn

Chaos Land Raider
Chaos Predator w/ Autocannon & Las Cannon X2
Chaos Predator w/ Autocannon
Chaos Predator w/ Autocannon & Heavy Bolter
Mutalith Vortex Beast X2
Defiler w/ Twin Laz and Scourge
Forgefiend w/ Autocannons
Maulerfiend w/ Tendrils



I typically have used my chaos army as support for my Tsons, but recently I played a game vs a highly competitive Eldar list. Alitoc, 2 of the flyers with auto hitting str 12 guns, lots of rangers and dark reapers. I didn't expect to win, it was a 'hey, I want to try this list for such and such, can I practice on you?' . So I just grabbed what I haven't used in a while (my Deamons) and I took pretty much 3 squads of 10 demonettes, 3 squads of 10 bloodletters, a squad of 20 horrors, LOC, Bloodthirster with armor of scorn, some other random bits, and I decimated his list. I ignored the flyers went straight for his Fire Prisims / Dark Reapers / HQ's and had my enitre army engaged with his top of turn 2. Bottom of 2 he called it because I had him locked in combat everywhere and he simply couldn't do anything. This is why I am looking at these guys seriously now, I won't get into the local meta politics but I want to beat a few players soundly more than actually win the tournament all together and I know that list has a 80% chance of showing up this weekend.

ALSO : I have about 40$ to spend on getting something new and put together for this weekend, so I could get more pinks or something else if needed, I just don't know what to get at this point.

I actually didn't realise there was a seperate Daemons thread on here, I thought it was all conglomerated into the 'chaos' thread! Glad I saw this, now I can ask my daemons-detachment related questions to the right group of people

I suspect a lot of those people are the same people as there, but still...

Speaking of which - Screamers? What do people think of them, and how are you using them?

Screamers are pretty meh. T4 2W 4++ is pretty bad for the cost. However I've actually considered them for tying up models to make Magnus unshootable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vaklor4 wrote:
I'd have to agree, until they fix the issue with daemon prince power, you should just drop the LoC and bring more DPs.

It would be an issue with DPs if they were winning tournaments left and right. However right now chaos is a distant third compared to Imperium and Aeldarii. The issue isn't with DPs. The issue is with every other big monster. The ability to not get shot is insane! All greater daemons should drop to like 240 pts to be viable.

Finally the 2++ LoC... You're using the artifact and 2CP to do what exactly. He's not a powerhouse like Magnus. He hits like a wet noodle, his powers suck, mortal wounds destroy him and most importantly - your opponent can just shoot something else.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Screamers are pretty meh. T4 2W 4++ is pretty bad for the cost. However I've actually considered them for tying up models to make Magnus unshootable.

Well I'm currently considering between bloodcrushers and screamers, as I like the bloodcrushers models and I have a good conversion idea for screamers. Would you say either were of any use?

Unfortunately the case for most army lists are that nothing is very good for its points other than hundreds of horrors or cultists. Hordehammer is strong in 8th. But I dislike hordes and so am trying to make the best of a bad situation!

Plague drones are probably the better option, but unfortunately I ma not a big fan of the nurgle aesthetic of bloat, and I haven't found a decent mek/tek conversion for them that fits..

They're both pretty bad. Screamers can fly arround line of sight blocking terrain, Crushers can 3d6 charge (but why not bloodletters at that point) - so I'd say screamers are better since they can actually fill a niche.

Azuza001 wrote:
Sure.
For chaos -
HQ :
7 different Deamon Princes (I just love the different models)
Changling
Changecaster
Herald of Slaanesh on Steed
The Masque of Slaanesh (really considered putting this one in as warlord for a long time, so cheap but effective)
Lord of Change
Bloodthirster
Keeper of Secrets
Skull Master
Skull Keeper
Karanak

Troops :
36 Bloodletters
20 Pink Horrors
30 Demonettes
4 Nurglings (looking to get more)

Elites :
9 Flamers of Tzeentch
1 Fiend of Slaanesh (need more, but don't care for model so..)

Fast Attack :
10 Flesh hounds
5 Plauge Drones
10 Furies (Really Khorne based, bloodletters with wings)
2 Screamers (gifts of the bits box as it were)
5 Seekers

Heavy Support : None

For Thousand Sons -

Ahriman
Ahriman on Disk
Deamon Princes
Sorcerer in Term Armor

50 Rubrics
19 Tzaangors with blades

Tzaangor Shaman
Hellbrute X 3

5 Chaos Spawn

Chaos Land Raider
Chaos Predator w/ Autocannon & Las Cannon X2
Chaos Predator w/ Autocannon
Chaos Predator w/ Autocannon & Heavy Bolter
Mutalith Vortex Beast X2
Defiler w/ Twin Laz and Scourge
Forgefiend w/ Autocannons
Maulerfiend w/ Tendrils



I typically have used my chaos army as support for my Tsons, but recently I played a game vs a highly competitive Eldar list. Alitoc, 2 of the flyers with auto hitting str 12 guns, lots of rangers and dark reapers. I didn't expect to win, it was a 'hey, I want to try this list for such and such, can I practice on you?' . So I just grabbed what I haven't used in a while (my Deamons) and I took pretty much 3 squads of 10 demonettes, 3 squads of 10 bloodletters, a squad of 20 horrors, LOC, Bloodthirster with armor of scorn, some other random bits, and I decimated his list. I ignored the flyers went straight for his Fire Prisims / Dark Reapers / HQ's and had my enitre army engaged with his top of turn 2. Bottom of 2 he called it because I had him locked in combat everywhere and he simply couldn't do anything. This is why I am looking at these guys seriously now, I won't get into the local meta politics but I want to beat a few players soundly more than actually win the tournament all together and I know that list has a 80% chance of showing up this weekend.

ALSO : I have about 40$ to spend on getting something new and put together for this weekend, so I could get more pinks or something else if needed, I just don't know what to get at this point.

maybe you might consider play 3 hellbrutes instead furies+flamers+seekers, keep them cheap (missile+autocannon), but of course you must change a bit ur list to fit them, you need a vanguard, i dont see lot more you can add, or expand your Ts supreme command with 1 shaman and put ur termy sorcerer on screamer and make it an exalted on disk, you habe then plenty of psyonic, ahriman 2 ts Dp's shaman and exalted you can eat throug elite armies and veichles/Ik's

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
They're both pretty bad. Screamers can fly arround line of sight blocking terrain, Crushers can 3d6 charge (but why not bloodletters at that point) - so I'd say screamers are better since they can actually fill a niche.

So are there any units worth taking, other than daemon princes (great) or horrors (yaawwwnnnnn)

Niiru wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
They're both pretty bad. Screamers can fly arround line of sight blocking terrain, Crushers can 3d6 charge (but why not bloodletters at that point) - so I'd say screamers are better since they can actually fill a niche.

So are there any units worth taking, other than daemon princes (great) or horrors (yaawwwnnnnn)

DPs,
Pink Horro bombs,
Brimstone hordes,
Bloodletter bombs,
Daemonette bombs,
Plaguebearer bombs,
LoC with robes,
Skarbrand,
Big Z,
Big Bird,
etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Azuza001 wrote:

Spoiler:

Sure.
For chaos -
HQ :
7 different Deamon Princes (I just love the different models)
Changling
Changecaster
Herald of Slaanesh on Steed
The Masque of Slaanesh (really considered putting this one in as warlord for a long time, so cheap but effective)
Lord of Change
Bloodthirster
Keeper of Secrets
Skull Master
Skull Keeper
Karanak

Troops :
36 Bloodletters
20 Pink Horrors
30 Demonettes
4 Nurglings (looking to get more)

Elites :
9 Flamers of Tzeentch
1 Fiend of Slaanesh (need more, but don't care for model so..)

Fast Attack :
10 Flesh hounds
5 Plauge Drones
10 Furies (Really Khorne based, bloodletters with wings)
2 Screamers (gifts of the bits box as it were)
5 Seekers

Heavy Support : None

For Thousand Sons -

Ahriman
Ahriman on Disk
Deamon Princes
Sorcerer in Term Armor

50 Rubrics
19 Tzaangors with blades

Tzaangor Shaman
Hellbrute X 3

5 Chaos Spawn

Chaos Land Raider
Chaos Predator w/ Autocannon & Las Cannon X2
Chaos Predator w/ Autocannon
Chaos Predator w/ Autocannon & Heavy Bolter
Mutalith Vortex Beast X2
Defiler w/ Twin Laz and Scourge
Forgefiend w/ Autocannons
Maulerfiend w/ Tendrils



I typically have used my chaos army as support for my Tsons, but recently I played a game vs a highly competitive Eldar list. Alitoc, 2 of the flyers with auto hitting str 12 guns, lots of rangers and dark reapers. I didn't expect to win, it was a 'hey, I want to try this list for such and such, can I practice on you?' . So I just grabbed what I haven't used in a while (my Deamons) and I took pretty much 3 squads of 10 demonettes, 3 squads of 10 bloodletters, a squad of 20 horrors, LOC, Bloodthirster with armor of scorn, some other random bits, and I decimated his list. I ignored the flyers went straight for his Fire Prisims / Dark Reapers / HQ's and had my enitre army engaged with his top of turn 2. Bottom of 2 he called it because I had him locked in combat everywhere and he simply couldn't do anything. This is why I am looking at these guys seriously now, I won't get into the local meta politics but I want to beat a few players soundly more than actually win the tournament all together and I know that list has a 80% chance of showing up this weekend.

ALSO : I have about 40$ to spend on getting something new and put together for this weekend, so I could get more pinks or something else if needed, I just don't know what to get at this point.

Something like this given what you have:

Spend a command point to give the Khorne DP the Skullreaver and spend 7CP to throw the Bloodletter Bomb, the Horror bomb, Tz/Kh Heralds and the Kh DP into DeepStrike.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
They're both pretty bad. Screamers can fly arround line of sight blocking terrain, Crushers can 3d6 charge (but why not bloodletters at that point) - so I'd say screamers are better since they can actually fill a niche.

So are there any units worth taking, other than daemon princes (great) or horrors (yaawwwnnnnn)

DPs,
Pink Horro bombs,
Brimstone hordes,
Bloodletter bombs,
Daemonette bombs,
Plaguebearer bombs,
LoC with robes,
Skarbrand,
Big Z,
Big Bird,
etc.

So a chunk of those are just variations on the theme of 'boring horde of chaff units' that I put horrors and cultists into. Probably the most competitive options, but also the most boring and unimaginative imo.

Princes, of course, are great, and I've already converted one and have ideas for my second. Everyone loves princes.

The others seem to all be greater daemons? Interesting, didn't think they were thought of that highly. I'll take a look.

However it seems that there are no good elites, fast attack or heavy support options in the entire codex. That seems... pretty terrible?

The elites/FA/HS aren't bad, the regular troops are just way better at doing basically the same thing.

 mrhappyface wrote:
The elites/FA/HS aren't bad, the regular troops are just way better at doing basically the same thing.

That would imply that the codex is terribly written, wouldn't it?

I mean I know GW have a reputation for 'terrible rules writing', but I don't think the other armies would be able to say that their basic troops are better at everything than their elites/FA/HS options.

Just seems really odd, thats all.

However, as I dislike painting and playing horde armies, I'll just have to make do with bad units

That would imply that the codex is terribly written, wouldn't it?

Welcome to 8th edition. At least 80% of every codex is garbage from a 'competitive viability' standpoint.

Niiru wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
The elites/FA/HS aren't bad, the regular troops are just way better at doing basically the same thing.

That would imply that the codex is terribly written, wouldn't it?

I mean I know GW have a reputation for 'terrible rules writing', but I don't think the other armies would be able to say that their basic troops are better at everything than their elites/FA/HS options.

Just seems really odd, thats all.

However, as I dislike painting and playing horde armies, I'll just have to make do with bad units

Every army might not have troops pulling the weight, but they do all have that one unit that stands above the rest. Some are elite, heavy, fast, HQ, or even troops. Our book just has no wargear and little to no customization for units. So it's exceptionally easy to say bloodletter are better than crushers, because crushers can't have extra upgrades. It's like if terminators had the exact same loadout as tactical marines. Nurgle is written well, as each unit has a good role (except beasts, lol) khorne and slaanesh, everything is pretty hard outclassed by infantry or daemon princes, as they don't have as defining roles outside of "MURDER IN CLOSE COMBAT". I do think I'll be trying multigod detachments and just wave goodbye to the locus for my khorne and nurgle. The nurgle locus is nice, but if bloodletters are nearby, nurgle stuff wont be needed in CC.

Niiru wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
The elites/FA/HS aren't bad, the regular troops are just way better at doing basically the same thing.

That would imply that the codex is terribly written, wouldn't it?

I mean I know GW have a reputation for 'terrible rules writing', but I don't think the other armies would be able to say that their basic troops are better at everything than their elites/FA/HS options.

Just seems really odd, thats all.

However, as I dislike painting and playing horde armies, I'll just have to make do with bad units

Daemons, Orks, Nids, GSC, etc. all have the same problem - they're swarm armies in an edition where hordes are top tier. As I said, the other units in each army aren't bad, you could certainly run an army with elites/FA/HS from each faction but those armies will never be as good as just taking the troops.

nevermind lol, i can't read apparently.

Primortus wrote:
Ithe version of the spell in the CSM codex works on any keyword TZEENTCH unit.
Just something to consider.

You might want to read it again : Weaver of fate works on TZEENTCH HERETIC ASTARTES.

Anybody having any luck with a Bloodthirster at all? I feel like maybe taking one with the Armor of Scorn would work as long as it's not the only big threat, but I'm just having a hard time justifying 340 points for it. It's a shame, as I've got a Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage sitting on my shelf that I had loads of fun painting, and he hasn't hit a table yet in 8th edition.

Niiru wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
The elites/FA/HS aren't bad, the regular troops are just way better at doing basically the same thing.

That would imply that the codex is terribly written, wouldn't it?

I mean I know GW have a reputation for 'terrible rules writing', but I don't think the other armies would be able to say that their basic troops are better at everything than their elites/FA/HS options.

Just seems really odd, thats all.

However, as I dislike painting and playing horde armies, I'll just have to make do with bad units

Well daemons have always been a horde army primarily. As far as strength goes:

Tier G: DP, plaguebearers+tri-herald
Tier 1: Bloodletters+3D6 charge, Pink Horrors + Herald, Slaanesh Herald, Nurglings
Tier 2: Karanak, Plague Drones, Tree
Tier 3: Flesh hounds, Skulltaker, LoC, Skarbrand, Screamers
Tier 4: ?
Tier 5: Everything else

Not everything in Tier 5 is terrible. Just that stuff in Tiers 1-3 does the same thing except better. Bloodletters crap on every other melee unit we have. Plaguebearers do the same for durability. Horrors do the same for anti horde shooting, etc

I have always felt (and this edition is no different) that deamons are ment to work with chaos marines, not as a separate faction. Combine the two and you got a very interesting group of choices to pull from. Seperatly there are units that only make sense in a vacuum of their own codex. Prime examples here are soul grinders and skull cannons. Only reason they need to exsist is in a deamon only force.

As for elites vs heavy vs fast attack, yeah the deamon codex has a problem there. Everything in the codex is cc, how many different variations of punch it hard, punch it fast, punch it resiliently, or punch it with magic can you have?

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
The elites/FA/HS aren't bad, the regular troops are just way better at doing basically the same thing.

That would imply that the codex is terribly written, wouldn't it?

I mean I know GW have a reputation for 'terrible rules writing', but I don't think the other armies would be able to say that their basic troops are better at everything than their elites/FA/HS options.

Just seems really odd, thats all.

However, as I dislike painting and playing horde armies, I'll just have to make do with bad units

Well daemons have always been a horde army primarily. As far as strength goes:

Tier G: DP, plaguebearers+tri-herald
Tier 1: Bloodletters+3D6 charge, Pink Horrors + Herald, Slaanesh Herald
Tier 2: Karanak, Plague Drones, Tree
Tier 3: Flesh hounds, Skulltaker, LoC, Skarbrand, Screamers
Tier 4: ?
Tier 5: Everything else

Not everything in Tier 5 is terrible. Just that stuff in Tiers 1-3 does the same thing except better. Bloodletters crap on every other melee unit we have. Plaguebearers do the same for durability. Horrors do the same for anti horde shooting, etc

So would there be any point in a list with both Plague Drones and Screamers? Do they fill the same niche?

Would there be any reason to take screamers over drones?

The mathhammer seems to show drones coming out slightly ahead on all types of enemies, despite the screamers having stronger attacks. Seems more attacks is better. And the Drones are way way tougher to kill.

Screamers are tiny so you can hide them from line of sight. They are also faster. You don't use them for damage, you use them to pick off chaff from far away objectives or to help surround things in combat.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

Well daemons have always been a horde army primarily. As far as strength goes:

Tier G: DP, plaguebearers+tri-herald
Tier 1: Bloodletters+3D6 charge, Pink Horrors + Herald, Slaanesh Herald
Tier 2: Karanak, Plague Drones, Tree
Tier 3: Flesh hounds, Skulltaker, LoC, Skarbrand, Screamers
Tier 4: ?
Tier 5: Everything else

Not everything in Tier 5 is terrible. Just that stuff in Tiers 1-3 does the same thing except better. Bloodletters crap on every other melee unit we have. Plaguebearers do the same for durability. Horrors do the same for anti horde shooting, etc

I think Nurglings deserve a mention as a utility unit, even if only for their infiltrate ability. They're crap offensively but can sometimes soak up a surprising amount of firepower.

Oh yeah, Nurglings are definitelly Tier 1. Missed them. Fixed

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Anybody having any luck with a Bloodthirster at all? I feel like maybe taking one with the Armor of Scorn would work as long as it's not the only big threat, but I'm just having a hard time justifying 340 points for it. It's a shame, as I've got a Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage sitting on my shelf that I had loads of fun painting, and he hasn't hit a table yet in 8th edition.

In my experience, I either bring Skarbrand instead, or just treat it as an anti-tank model. Its 10 morale share is pretty useless most of the time, but its raw melee stats are absolutely worth it. It's also a really decent fire magnet, able to get to 3++ invuln save quite easily with the relic + stratagem. Run him up the board instead of deepstriking to preserve CP (you are already spending 2-4 just to protect him) and watch him mulch just about any tank in the game in one turn, and soak up ridiculous amounts of damage for the rest of your army.