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https://herohammer-fanzine.com/#fanzine Here is the link to a great fan mag.

"Don't Feed the Troll"

ETC is the forum equivalent of a short bus. 
   
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 kodos wrote:

there was a captains vote in the beginning between KoW, Warhammer Armies, keeping 8th and "future proof game made by the players and will the best game ever (based on 8th because this is the game the people behind it like and there is not enough time to make something new)"


And the Brit team going full patriot and actually pushing to switch to AoS, and I mean pre-GHB AoS, as the premiere tournament game

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/29 16:22:36


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New Jersey, State of Perfection

Re rank/unit size - its going to be 5's. Most of the surviving old world kits are sold in multiples of 10, I took a quick glance through what remains and theres basically only a handful of kits still for sale that do multiples of 4.

Sarouan wrote:
Spoiler:
Sorry, I rather see this as a true army for rank and files :



Yes, it takes time to build and paint (and money) but that's what rank and files armies really shine as from my point of view. I see it as the Saint Graal to have such a result. It looks simply awesome on the table.

Sure, you can always enjoy Battle in its "skirmish version" with units of 15-20 soldiers and think that's an army, but to me, I never thought it looked good. Same for Kings of War armies with minimal model count per unit. Purely a question of visual to me.


I want to do the same games as this one :



Oh yes, that's the stuff you'll keep remembering for the rest of your life.


As amazing as that looks, you have to understand that this actually alienates 98% of the games potential customer base from ever playing it due to time and cost, as well as the massive amounts of space needed to actually play a game of that size. Most people don't have the means for that. This is not a game that will sell sufficiently to justify the investment of GWs resources.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
 auticus wrote:
Warmaster was amazing I love it.

Was? Warmaster is probaby doing better right now than at any point in history. There's a living ruleset and most armies have been digitally resculpted.


Well according to that one guy the game died 6 months after it released and was never heard from again, so I don't see how its possible for it to be going strong in 2021.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 BlackoCatto wrote:
 Las wrote:
Hot take: 28mm rank n flank isn't easy to begin with and looks terrible with large units.
Big exposed movement trays primed brown or green sitting on the table like plates. Barely tabletop quality minis due to the crazy painting load of hundreds of dudes. Ridiculous terrain set ups so that units can maneuver at all. It just looks bad.
I hope they keep it to no more than 20 minis per unit. Honestly 10-15 would be ideal.

I think the exact opposite, it looks great. Plenty of historicals play with large quantity of minis.

Aren't most historical 25mm scale as opposed to 28 heroic? I do understand the appeal of having a lot of miniatures on the table, it's that in terms of practicality it isn't feasible due to the large footprint of such regiments on a standard 6'x4' playing surface.
8th ed handled it particularly poorly by encouraging the player to field a single large regiment through steadfast instead of using a variety of regiments.
Imagine if in Total War you only fielded one, massive blob of infantry and a couple of, idk, cavalry units. It's just not fun or interesting to play with.


Historicals as a general rule are dominated by smaller scales. 25/28mm is gaining popularity as a result of Warlords efforts of promoting the scale amongst "historicals lite" types, but the overwhelming majority of "real" historicals games I've encountered are played at 15mm and 6mm, and less commonly at other scales.
   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

chaos0xomega wrote:
Historicals as a general rule are dominated by smaller scales. 25/28mm is gaining popularity as a result of Warlords efforts of promoting the scale amongst "historicals lite" types, but the overwhelming majority of "real" historicals games I've encountered are played at 15mm and 6mm, and less commonly at other scales.

this is kind of cool if Warlords marketing gains fruit in the US
usually it depends on the level played, Warband/Platoon is usually 25/28mm, Brigade is 15-20mm and Division/Army level games in 6-10mm
while for abstract gaming, any scale is used (there are army level Napoleonic games that are played with 1 marker being 1 Division and some players put 28mm models on top of them, while the others use 2mm "models")

mid 80ies to 90ies, 20mm was the dominant scale for historicals because all the scale model companies made 1/72 soft plastic models while any other scale was hard to get

I am not sure when 25-30mm really became a thing here but the "real" historical players already used in the mid 80ies
   
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on the forum. Obviously

I personally like the look of Konflikt 47.
I'm a sucker for Weird World II.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/29 17:59:38


What I have
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Destructive Daemon Prince





Albany, NY

Re: kodos, Vulcan, etc. talking about WHFB 8E being good, bad, scenarios, the ETC, tournament play, and so on --

I played WHFB tournaments in the Northeast US region from early 7E to the end of 8E, and I never went to an event that didn't comp and/or errata the rules to some extent. For 7E it was primarily to help the horrifically unbalanced army tiers, but for 8E it was to navigate any number of NPEs across the board, not least of all poor balance but quite often around magic and army composition. I actually only played a handful of pure 8E games in the very beginning, before it was entirely clear that we needed to house rule basic things like terrain in order to have a functional game. That, uh, that's bad. Almost Day 1 AOS 'heck the rules just use model count' bad, but not quite

The general adage I hear on The Internet is that the last time WHFB was balanced and mostly equitable for both players was Ravening Hordes 6E (ignoring the chain panic rule in that edition O_O). However when I suggest this to people jonesing for Oldhammer (like my buddy a couple years ago, looking to start up a league), I usually get told that it's too boring and too samey, and they end up choosing between the raw brutality of 7E (often because they have a Dark Elf or Daemon army in their closet) or the sheer bs and mass carnage of 8E. In my experience, this is the true draw for the Warhammer player: to smash face thanks to arbitrarily having the strongest rules; or to have games hinge on unequally distributed but devastating random mechanics, preferably with an abundance of charts on which to look them up.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/07/29 18:20:46


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South New Jersey

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I personally like the look of Konflikt 47.
I'm a sucker for Weird World II.


Funnily enough, speaking of Warlord, their use of 28mm, and Konflikt 47; the original designers of K47, Clockwork Goblin, had apparently intended for their miniatures to be released in 15mm which you can find examples of. Once they started working with Warlord, the game got scaled up to 28mm so it could be used Warlords Bolt Action miniatures.

Which is a shame, since if 28mm Bolt Action wasn't so popular, it'd be way better to play at 15mm scale.

   
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New Jersey, State of Perfection

 kodos wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
Historicals as a general rule are dominated by smaller scales. 25/28mm is gaining popularity as a result of Warlords efforts of promoting the scale amongst "historicals lite" types, but the overwhelming majority of "real" historicals games I've encountered are played at 15mm and 6mm, and less commonly at other scales.

this is kind of cool if Warlords marketing gains fruit in the US
usually it depends on the level played, Warband/Platoon is usually 25/28mm, Brigade is 15-20mm and Division/Army level games in 6-10mm
while for abstract gaming, any scale is used (there are army level Napoleonic games that are played with 1 marker being 1 Division and some players put 28mm models on top of them, while the others use 2mm "models")

mid 80ies to 90ies, 20mm was the dominant scale for historicals because all the scale model companies made 1/72 soft plastic models while any other scale was hard to get

I am not sure when 25-30mm really became a thing here but the "real" historical players already used in the mid 80ies


25/28 was a popular historicals scale back in the day amongst historical players in the US and UK (20mm less popular as the 1/72 range was very limited to late 19th and 20th century at the time), but a British manufacturer ( Miniature Figurines Ltd, aka Minifigs) launched 15mm ranges (followed later by an American manufacturer named Heritage) that caused the historical scene to shift towards 15mm as the bulk of historical games being played at the time were rank and file ranging from ancients to Napoleonic/post-Napoleonic era and it just worked better at the smaller scale (as well as being more affordable and accessible to general audiences, particularly in the UK where housing and accommodations were tight). That in turn drove the industry towards smaller scales (with 6mm gaining much popularity for more modern periods as a result of microarmor type rulesets). The shift back towards 25/28mm is only relatively recent starting in the late 90s and early 2000s as a result of GWs growth and the shift towards the American market (which has more spacious housing and gaming venues) driving the industry back towards larger minis.
   
Made in at
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Austria

 Boss Salvage wrote:
Re: kodos, Vulcan, etc. talking about WHFB 8E being good, bad, scenarios, the ETC, tournament play, and so on --.


we had 8th comp here as well, yet it did not come down in helping anything instead of changing stuff the TO's don't like

for example in 7th the house rules got that far that older army books that did not got an update or were based in outdated rules, were allowed to adjust (like that the Battlestandard bearer could use other equipment and items) with the generic "no dragons" rules

all this was gone (because 8th was balanced and dragons are fine now while older armies don't need adjustment because otherwise it would have been in the official errata) and replaced with stuff like "no melee dwarfs allowed" or warmachines must be on round bases to avoid cheating

and yes every time someone ask for Oldhammer I also suggest 6E with Ravening Hordes, also because the supplement was given away free and you can still download it

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/29 18:51:27


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Lake County, Illinois

I remember liking those early 6th games with Ravening Hordes. Sure, a lot of the more strange stuff that wasn't covered in the core rule book were just sorta "counts as" this other thing with a few changes. So, a steam tank didn't really feel like a steam tank (though I don't think I ever fielded one back then anyway). But I liked that there weren't so many special rules that made everything totally different than everything else, and so many earth shattering spells and magic items and combos.
   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

chaos0xomega wrote:
25/28 was a popular historicals scale back in the day amongst historical players in the US and UK (20mm less popular as the 1/72 range was very limited to late 19th and 20th century at the time), but a British manufacturer ( Miniature Figurines Ltd, aka Minifigs) launched 15mm ranges (followed later by an American manufacturer named Heritage) that caused the historical scene to shift towards 15mm as the bulk of historical games being played at the time were rank and file ranging from ancients to Napoleonic/post-Napoleonic era and it just worked better at the smaller scale (as well as being more affordable and accessible to general audiences, particularly in the UK where housing and accommodations were tight). That in turn drove the industry towards smaller scales (with 6mm gaining much popularity for more modern periods as a result of microarmor type rulesets). The shift back towards 25/28mm is only relatively recent starting in the late 90s and early 2000s as a result of GWs growth and the shift towards the American market (which has more spacious housing and gaming venues) driving the industry back towards larger minis.

always interesting how different markets developed

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/29 19:00:09


 
   
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.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
5-wide is absolutely necessary. With 4-wide the classic three man command group is off center and that is an abomination.

Agreed!

Plus you get to say “In the pipe, five by five!" which is a bonus - and probably true...until the canon balls start bouncing!

   
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In my experience, this is the true draw for the Warhammer player: to smash face thanks to arbitrarily having the strongest rules; or to have games hinge on unequally distributed but devastating random mechanics


Also my experience. Also hear the same things.

Balanced games are "boring". The standard GW fan doesn't want balance in my experience. They want to chase the strongest army and crush people with it and have ultimate devastation / brutality with a single roll of the dice.

That was an eye opener for me when I did azyr comp for AOS years ago.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





Serious question:

What does everyone think GWs intentions are for the Old World? Will it be a return to rank and flank wargamng?

or is it going to be solely about charging as much as they can to the older generation of gamers nostalgic about all the bretonnian knights they couldn’t afford in their youth?

I honestly cannot tell. Part of me think this may be a return of GW actually designing a war game, as AoS really serves that new models, new rules, higher prices treadmill.

Whereas the Old World seems like it could be more about reestablishing GW in the historical wargaming market, even if WHFB is pseudohistory.

But in the end I’m not sure GW will be able to resist driving Old World by using nostalgia as a weapon to drive the prices of classic sculpts through the roof.
   
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What does everyone think GWs intentions are for the Old World? Will it be a return to rank and flank wargamng?


As they have said its going to be a continuation of warhammer fantasy battles - yes its a return to rank and flank wargaming.

However I believe it will also be a continuation of appealing to the wide audience which means easy to play, few tactics, few strategies, emphasis on massive cinematic explosions and things like spamming mortal wounds and chasing the meta dragon around to do well.
   
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Or it could be a revision of the LotR ruleset, who knows.

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ERJAK wrote:
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Definitely square! Warhammer: The Old World is a reinvention of the classic rank-and-file game of Warhammer Fantasy Battles. Regiments move in ranked-up units, and strategic manoeuvring into position to launch or receive a critical charge will be as much a key part of the game as it ever was.


8th ed or something new? Both! We’ve played every single edition of Warhammer Fantasy Battles over the years and like every player, we have our favourite bits from each. Warhammer: The Old World will gather up all our favourite mechanics from the 3rd edition to the 8th edition** and add new elements where needed to create something deeply familiar yet fresh and new.


Based off of those quotes from the article I am about 99.99% sure its not a revision of Lord of the Rings and is a continuation of old warhammer with new stuff added.
   
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Wouldn't you rather spend the next four years being optimistic about it only to be proven wrong than being pessimistic about it and proven right? While we can draw similarities to past and existing rule design GW has never done a project like this. The closest thing would be... maybe blood bowl? Which come to think of it has a really good ruleset and some nice new minis to boot.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

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ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
--Saying this about another member does not violate Dakka's Rule #1, apparently. 
   
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After 20 odd years since GW began the power churn in mid to late 6th edition - no I'm not going to be optimistic. Its simply not profitable to do things the way that classic-hammer players want. At least not as profitable as making it a Michael Bay movie on the tabletop.

Its nice to be able to discuss it though, but I'm going to be very leery of anything GW puts out until they prove me wrong. After all the last time they REALLY cared about the ruleset over just pushing and churning models was about 20 years ago.

They have a very very long track record to fall back on.

I don't think its true GW has never done a project like this. They are from my standpoint making 9th edition warhammer fantasy. This is no different from when they create a new edition of any game.

If this was going to be a totally brand new game from scratch then maybe but all signs point to this being official 9th edition warhammer fantasy.

Thats where I'm going to put my thoughts and feelings into the project until shown otherwise.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





I'm with Auticus on this one. With the last Warhammer Community article, I feel like the Old World project is more about "Warhammer Battle : the Nostalgia fan service game" than a real new innovative game system.
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




 auticus wrote:
In my experience, this is the true draw for the Warhammer player: to smash face thanks to arbitrarily having the strongest rules; or to have games hinge on unequally distributed but devastating random mechanics


Also my experience. Also hear the same things.

Balanced games are "boring". The standard GW fan doesn't want balance in my experience. They want to chase the strongest army and crush people with it and have ultimate devastation / brutality with a single roll of the dice.

That was an eye opener for me when I did azyr comp for AOS years ago.


I’ve also heard this. And that meta churn is great as it keeps things fresh. Weird to me but takes all sorts i guess.
   
Made in us
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Pro: the meta churn of not having balance keeps things fresh. I agree. It does that.

Con: we have a game where point values don't represent what they are supposed to, and a game where players can and often win based purely off of what army they are fielding.

That is not a game to me though. No one wants to play the board game where the red token gets a bunch of added bonuses and dice just because its the red token.

And then next year the blue token gets the bonuses and the red token gets penalized.

And then the next year the green token gets it, etc.

And each token costs you $800 - $1200 retail and you have to paint it.

I feel the same applies in wargaming. At least for me.

Ask me if that business model worked before 2015 and I'd have said hell no who the hell wants that?

Of course since 2015 we've all learned a very valuable insight into what many people will throw money at.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/29 21:39:20


 
   
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Lake County, Illinois

I don't need or expect a fantasy wargame to be perfectly balanced between the factions, meaning that none have any advantage over the others given two gamers of equal "skill". However, I think it's important for any wargame for the outcome to be uncertain for as long as possible. That's what makes it dramatic. But it's also important to feel like you influence the outcome meaningfully in order to be engaged with the game. While I like fun, dramatic, narrative driven games, i think GW sometimes makes up for imbalance by adding randomness in order to make the outcome more in doubt, since the random events or random secondary objectives or random turn order or whatever it is has the possibility of turning the game around that seemed to be already decided. But if that decides the game, it feels completely out of the control of the players.
   
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Even with that random element though I have often been able to look down at a table of AOS or 40k (or even late period 8th whfb) and determine the winner before the game started based on the two army lists.
   
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Executing Exarch






Sarouan wrote:
I'm with Auticus on this one. With the last Warhammer Community article, I feel like the Old World project is more about "Warhammer Battle : the Nostalgia fan service game" than a real new innovative game system.


But here is the thing, WHFB is essentially R&F game. (With elements of magic & heroes)

If they do make it "something else" would that not mean it basically has to stop being a R&F game?

It seems like a bit of a trap where GW will be doomed if they and doomed if they dont.
I dont understand why there is a sudden resentment in TOW being called "WHFB: nostalgia fan service"

What would it need to be to NOT be like WHFB ? How much different can it be as a R&F game while remaining a R&F game?

Wish listing aside realistically what are peoples expectations?

They confirmed they will be building on the WHFB predecessor but I dotn get a sentiment that it will be WHFB 8th with a tweak. I mean it would have to be some drastic change to not be like WHFB. ... I


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 auticus wrote:
Even with that random element though I have often been able to look down at a table of AOS or 40k (or even late period 8th whfb) and determine the winner before the game started based on the two army lists.


I think that also applies to 40k in some extent

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/29 21:52:22


 
   
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Infiltrating Broodlord




Lake County, Illinois

 auticus wrote:
Even with that random element though I have often been able to look down at a table of AOS or 40k (or even late period 8th whfb) and determine the winner before the game started based on the two army lists.


And were those games any fun at all? I wouldn't find it fun, though if my opponent insisted on continuing the game once it was a foregone conclusion, I guess I'd make the best of it and make up some objective, like defeat their general with mine or something to strive for to add some drama.

Now, to some extent it's unavoidable. If you have a lot of options, of course it's always going to be possible for someone to pick an army list that is just terrible, or due to circumstances can't beat another one. Like if you're just starting to build 40k armies playing like 500 or 750 point games with what you've been able to buy and put together and paint. If one guy buys a vehicle, and the other guy hasn't bought any heavy weapons, that game isn't going to be very fun. I don't think that's a problem the game can fix really, sometimes players just have to work together to make the game fun for both of them. It's not a sport, where the only goal is to win.
   
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And were those games any fun at all?


Now you have found the entire reason for how I'm confused as to why people shovel money at GW over the last decade+.

We had a lot of player churn. Our average lifespan of players was about 18 months. After that they'd sell off and be done.

The hardcore competitive guys lasted longer, usually about 3-5 years. But then those guys were chasing the power monkey around the room and were never losing by virtue of playing another power player whose list destroyed theirs, because they were always running the optimal lists to begin with so it was more fun for them.
   
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Annandale, VA

 Argive wrote:
But here is the thing, WHFB is essentially R&F game. (With elements of magic & heroes)

If they do make it "something else" would that not mean it basically has to stop being a R&F game?


It's not being a rank-and-file game that makes it sound like nostalgia fan service, it's how they're bending over backwards to describe it as exactly like the Warhammer you knew and loved.

I mean, take Kings of War: Rank-and-file? Yes. An amalgam of 3rd-8th WHFB? Absolutely not. So clearly a game can be R&F without being nostalgia bait.

Personally, I would like to see GW use this opportunity to bring WHFB into the modern era. A more modern activation system, more elegant implementation of morale, and maybe a layer of C&C tying in with both would do a lot.
   
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 catbarf wrote:
 Argive wrote:
But here is the thing, WHFB is essentially R&F game. (With elements of magic & heroes)

If they do make it "something else" would that not mean it basically has to stop being a R&F game?


It's not being a rank-and-file game that makes it sound like nostalgia fan service, it's how they're bending over backwards to describe it as exactly like the Warhammer you knew and loved.

I mean, take Kings of War: Rank-and-file? Yes. An amalgam of 3rd-8th WHFB? Absolutely not. So clearly a game can be R&F without being nostalgia bait.

Personally, I would like to see GW use this opportunity to bring WHFB into the modern era. A more modern activation system, more elegant implementation of morale, and maybe a layer of C&C tying in with both would do a lot.


"Let's try to appeal to the people who used to love our game by making a new game that's nothing like it!"

I'm 100% in the camp of wanting to see this terrible amalgam of previous editions. I want what I grew up on. What I wasted Saturdays playing with my best friend in high school. If I wanted to try something new and different, I'd play one of the other games that have sprung up since.

These suggestions are making me think both of the first time I tried warhammer 40k 3rd edition and was dumbfounded that you couldn't throw grenades to kill things, or even worse, trying age of sigmar when it first released and realizing that the game amounted to a giant pile on in the middle of the board afterwhich you took turns with your opponent rolling dice to remove models until one side "won."

No thanks.
   
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Infiltrating Broodlord




Lake County, Illinois

 auticus wrote:
And were those games any fun at all?


Now you have found the entire reason for how I'm confused as to why people shovel money at GW over the last decade+.

We had a lot of player churn. Our average lifespan of players was about 18 months. After that they'd sell off and be done.

The hardcore competitive guys lasted longer, usually about 3-5 years. But then those guys were chasing the power monkey around the room and were never losing by virtue of playing another power player whose list destroyed theirs, because they were always running the optimal lists to begin with so it was more fun for them.


Admittedly, I was always only a pretty casual player more interested in a dramatic story than a competitive challenge. I never went to tournaments or anything and know nothing of that style of playing. But clearly there are different ways for people to have fun with these games. And different people can be looking for very different things from the game.
   
 
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