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I KNOW that there is pretty much nothing about this two legions except the few and far between hints about them in the HH series. "the forgotten and the purged" IIRC.

Of course the legions took an Oath NOT to speak ever again about it or maybe only the Primarchs took the oath... Before they turned to chaos...

But does somebody has any REASON why the warriors that were in those times (i.e. Abaddon) or even those Primarchs still "alive" as deamon princes would have any reasons NOT to speak about them? I mean after turning into chaos they would have found that oath easier to break and we would have some information about it...isnt it?

Any ideas why during the last 10000 years, no primarch have commented it, even just to create stress and spook the pants out of the loyalists?

What do you think?

Well the loyalists would likely not believe them...
After all traitors are unreliable so daemon traitors would be even more so.
Also most of the daemon primarchs hang around on whatever planet it is they own and rarely do much apart from plot and occasionally lead a blood soaked crusade through the Imperium.
And maybe they just can't be arsed... or maybe they forgot.

We're not even sure if the II and the XI turned to Chaos anyways...

Edit. Ack, I misinterpreted the OP...

Well, I still stand to it somehow. Maybe they were purged for doing something hideous to both loyalist and traitors. Allying themselves with Xenos, perhaps?

I've always thought maybe they were pacifists and thus deemed cowards. But thats just my thoughts.

ive always thought that their gene seed was really fethed up and just died or were purged

My thoughts are this.....

II Legion- Turned Renagade and began a blood bath within the Imperium's outer reaches and were hunted down and destroyed by the Space Wolfs. All information on this was purged from documentation and memory by Imperial Assassins killing off all human witnesses except for the Space Wolfs.

XI Legion- Mutations within the chapter caused the Imperium to purge the entire chapter, killing them all and erasing any evidance of there mutation. (After all Space Marines are not supposed to mutant, look at Space Wolfs and Blood Angels.....go figure).

These are just my thoughts not anything to do with 40k history...

On an 'out of story' basis, it's of course because those two 'missing' primarchs are intended to let players design their own chapter/warband. I always just assumed there was a good reason in-story and ignored it. I also always assumed one was a traitor legion and the other a loyalist (that way players on both sides can claim descent from them).

Jimsolo wrote:On an 'out of story' basis, it's of course because those two 'missing' primarchs are intended to let players design their own chapter/warband. I always just assumed there was a good reason in-story and ignored it. I also always assumed one was a traitor legion and the other a loyalist (that way players on both sides can claim descent from them).

These legions are homages to the Roman "Lost Legions".

Always have been.

Then the HH authours decided they would try to rationalise it with rumours and hints in the fluff.

Ie. Russ admitting that he has had to put down a brother before (Prospero Burns).

There are also hints in the timeline where the Ultramarines suddenly swell in size. The theory is that while a primarch and his marines were put down, some remaned loyal or un-mutated and were brought into the most rigid Codex chapter in order to continue service.

how would a chaos primarch tell anyone about it?
and really why would it matter?

"hey we're the Chaos space marines that the imperium doesn't tell you about. and 10K years ago some of us did something while we were still loyal. i'd love to tell you about it but we're busy killing all the imperials on this planet."

One of the legions could have suffered such a defeat that the entire legion was annihilated? Would make sense not to speak of such a failure. As for the reason behind the failure? Maybe hubris?

I just remembered that the II Legion was on Badab, just dont remember the name. But the Legion's leader was killed there and millions died. Ok lets see if I remember right....Lugft Huron Master of the Astral Claws, Master of the Forge, Tyrant of Badab, II Legion. But the the space based Lamenators were destroyed in a huge fleet to fleet battle in Optera that could be the II Legion also....there were 4 space marine chapters that followed Jugft Huron into this traitorous war. The Mantis Warriors were there taking very heavy casualties and had a blood oath to the Astra Claws testing there loyalties to the Emperor and denounced traitors......The Executioners were another chapter that made an appearance siding with Lugft Huron, as Lugft Hurons actions being as they are he committed the ultimate crime Heresy on level with Horus himself. So can the Astral Claws be this II Legion? And the Executioners could be the other XI Legion but they were betrayed by the Astra Claws in the Badab war. The Mantis Warriors surrendered to Imperial dictate and accepted punishment for there treason, the remaining Mantis Warriors were given a job to purge an area of the Maelstrom Zone for 100 years. After the Badab War the serviving Astral Claws, Executioners, Mantis Warriors and Laminators were put to trial, all captured Astral Claws were put to the sword, the other Chapters involved were given 100 yrs Penant Crusade. Hmmm I will hve to look into this further, checking on the Primarchs of the Astral Claws and Lamenators...

LordWynne wrote:I just remembered that the II Legion was on Badab, just dont remember the name. But the Legion's leader was killed there and millions died. Ok lets see if I remember right....Lugft Huron Master of the Astral Claws, Master of the Forge, Tyrant of Badab, II Legion. But the the space based Lamenators were destroyed in a huge fleet to fleet battle in Optera that could be the II Legion also....there were 4 space marine chapters that followed Jugft Huron into this traitorous war. The Mantis Warriors were there taking very heavy casualties and had a blood oath to the Astra Claws testing there loyalties to the Emperor and denounced traitors......The Executioners were another chapter that made an appearance siding with Lugft Huron, as Lugft Hurons actions being as they are he committed the ultimate crime Heresy on level with Horus himself. So can the Astral Claws be this II Legion? And the Executioners could be the other XI Legion but they were betrayed by the Astra Claws in the Badab war. The Mantis Warriors surrendered to Imperial dictate and accepted punishment for there treason, the remaining Mantis Warriors were given a job to purge an area of the Maelstrom Zone for 100 years. After the Badab War the serviving Astral Claws, Executioners, Mantis Warriors and Laminators were put to trial, all captured Astral Claws were put to the sword, the other Chapters involved were given 100 yrs Penant Crusade. Hmmm I will hve to look into this further, checking on the Primarchs of the Astral Claws and Lamenators...

Sources?

Cos Luft Huron was after the HH.

I remember them being referred to as "the Lost and Forgotten". I interpret the 'Forgotten' as the purged. The 'Lost' has had my mind wandering.

What if the Lost is simply that. A Primarch lost. The Emperor never found him, so his legion was absorbed into the UM?

Now, entertaining my own imagination, what if the Emperor purposely hid away a Primarch? His 'ace in the hole' so to speak, or maybe 'break glass in case of emergency' fits better...

SickSix wrote:I remember them being referred to as "the Lost and Forgotten". I interpret the 'Forgotten' as the purged. The 'Lost' has had my mind wandering.

What if the Lost is simply that. A Primarch lost. The Emperor never found him, so his legion was absorbed into the UM?

Now, entertaining my own imagination, what if the Emperor purposely hid away a Primarch? His 'ace in the hole' so to speak, or maybe 'break glass in case of emergency' fits better...

Emp's ace in the Hole is Russ.

Jimsolo wrote:On an 'out of story' basis, it's of course because those two 'missing' primarchs are intended to let players design their own chapter/warband. I always just assumed there was a good reason in-story and ignored it. I also always assumed one was a traitor legion and the other a loyalist (that way players on both sides can claim descent from them).

No thats definitely not why there are two missing legions, especially considering how much nerdrage there is every time someones fanfluff says there chapter is descended from the missing legion.

As for never found, we know for a fact they were all found, there is mentions of a few things that indicate this, including the bit that the emperor found all his sons, the two destroyed statues of the primarchs of the missing legions, and the mention of 'separate tragedies' that befell the 2nd and 11th primarchs and their legions.

AvatarForm wrote:

SickSix wrote:I remember them being referred to as "the Lost and Forgotten". I interpret the 'Forgotten' as the purged. The 'Lost' has had my mind wandering.

What if the Lost is simply that. A Primarch lost. The Emperor never found him, so his legion was absorbed into the UM?

Now, entertaining my own imagination, what if the Emperor purposely hid away a Primarch? His 'ace in the hole' so to speak, or maybe 'break glass in case of emergency' fits better...

Emp's ace in the Hole is Russ.

Not really. Russ is is blunt object to keep everyone in line. Russ could not rule the empire. Now, I'm not saying that some of the others couldn't rule, because it's been clearly stated they have the ability. But it is entertaining to believe that there is a primarch 'on ice' you could say to come in when, say, during the transition between the emperors death and rebirth.

It is an interesting premise, but I don't believe there would be so much secrecy and sorrow if they hadn't been destroyed one way or another.

LordWynne wrote:I just remembered that the II Legion was on Badab,

No it wasn't. The Badab War was ten thousand years after the heresy.

SickSix wrote:I remember them being referred to as "the Lost and Forgotten". I interpret the 'Forgotten' as the purged. The 'Lost' has had my mind wandering.

What if the Lost is simply that. A Primarch lost. The Emperor never found him, so his legion was absorbed into the UM?

Now, entertaining my own imagination, what if the Emperor purposely hid away a Primarch? His 'ace in the hole' so to speak, or maybe 'break glass in case of emergency' fits better...

When I hear lost, I think of something like the Legion of the Damned. It might mean that the entire legion was lost in the Warp on the way to somewhere.

Back ground for this was Imperial Armor books 9 and 10 the Badab Wars.

Yeah, Badab war was after the HH. Wonder what these two Legions could have done that was worse than the Horus Heresy? Say no to the Emperor upon meeting him?

To have there names erased from history, they had to do something very bad, could it have happened during the conquest of Terra? Or the Great Crusade?

Whatever it is, as you said, it would have to be unbearably bad. So bad, that I cannot imagine what it could be (considering that records of the 8 traitor legions were not expunged, at what could be worse than rebelling against your father/government and worshipping dark gods that bestow all manner of mutation upon you?), and I doubt GW can as well, and for that reason alone, I believe we will never know what happened...

Jimsolo wrote:On an 'out of story' basis, it's of course because those two 'missing' primarchs are intended to let players design their own chapter/warband. I always just assumed there was a good reason in-story and ignored it. I also always assumed one was a traitor legion and the other a loyalist (that way players on both sides can claim descent from them).

^This. Games Workshop always lets people who play this game have some level of imagination. That is why only roughly 200 SM chapters have been named, and only a few scores of those have any design elements that we know of.
For instance lets go to Lexicanum, and go to the first chapter that we see, the Absolvers: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Absolvers
See? We have a name, and a name only, not even a history. So we, as a player, could make a Chapter called the Absolvers, and we will only be using the name. We will not be messing any established cannon.

forruner_mercy wrote:

Jimsolo wrote:On an 'out of story' basis, it's of course because those two 'missing' primarchs are intended to let players design their own chapter/warband. I always just assumed there was a good reason in-story and ignored it. I also always assumed one was a traitor legion and the other a loyalist (that way players on both sides can claim descent from them).

^This. Games Workshop always lets people who play this game have some level of imagination. That is why only roughly 200 SM chapters have been named, and only a few scores of those have any design elements that we know of.
For instance lets go to Lexicanum, and go to the first chapter that we see, the Absolvers: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Absolvers
See? We have a name, and a name only, not even a history. So we, as a player, could make a Chapter called the Absolvers, and we will only be using the name. We will not be messing any established cannon.

That worked until the HH books were released. We now know that both legions fate were sealed long before the Heresy. And it seems their fates were a finite event. Meaning there really isn't any wiggle room at all.

LordWynne wrote:Back ground for this was Imperial Armor books 9 and 10 the Badab Wars.

Yeah, Badab war was after the HH. Wonder what these two Legions could have done that was worse than the Horus Heresy? Say no to the Emperor upon meeting him?

To have there names erased from history, they had to do something very bad, could it have happened during the conquest of Terra? Or the Great Crusade?

Angron said no to the Emperor, so it couldn't be that.

forruner_mercy wrote:

Jimsolo wrote:On an 'out of story' basis, it's of course because those two 'missing' primarchs are intended to let players design their own chapter/warband. I always just assumed there was a good reason in-story and ignored it. I also always assumed one was a traitor legion and the other a loyalist (that way players on both sides can claim descent from them).

^This. Games Workshop always lets people who play this game have some level of imagination. That is why only roughly 200 SM chapters have been named, and only a few scores of those have any design elements that we know of.
For instance lets go to Lexicanum, and go to the first chapter that we see, the Absolvers: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Absolvers
See? We have a name, and a name only, not even a history. So we, as a player, could make a Chapter called the Absolvers, and we will only be using the name. We will not be messing any established cannon.

Actually, no. GW has explained several times IN PRINT why they left 2 of them blank: It's purely and simply to add mystery to the Horus Heresy era. It's to make you think, "Well, if the others turned traitor and got to stay on the list, what the hell did those other 2 do to get themselves PURGED?!"

At the time, they never intended to go into what happened in depth, much less have a novel series about it.

It's NOT so everyone can make up their own 2nd and 11th Legions.

i have wondered that exact same thing, i think they said "hey emperor, we dont like your hair!" and he said "PURGE THEM"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
thats worse than heresy

Platuan4th wrote:It's to make you think, "Well, if the others turned traitor and got to stay on the list, what the hell did those other 2 do to get themselves PURGED?!"

Although, it was the Emperor that ordered the lost legions purged from history. It was only the fledgling Imperium that made decisions on how to remember the traitor legions (since the Emperor was busy collecting dust).

The Emperor was actually conscious for a brief time following the Heresy, so he could have given the order to expunge them. Even if he wasn't conscious long enough for such an order to be given, he was conscious enough to state that the word of the remaining Primarchs (who were around for long enough) and the word of the Custodes was law.

You think at least one person out of all those given authority to speak for the emperor would have said something to the effect of "You know, Big E wanted II and XI legion expunged for records for betraying him, don't you think we should do the same with Horus's miserable little circus?"

DarknessEternal wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:It's to make you think, "Well, if the others turned traitor and got to stay on the list, what the hell did those other 2 do to get themselves PURGED?!"

Although, it was the Emperor that ordered the lost legions purged from history. It was only the fledgling Imperium that made decisions on how to remember the traitor legions (since the Emperor was busy collecting dust).

Hmm I think the reason the traitor legions weren't purged is because its hard to deny the existance of something that keeps turning up and ravaging your worlds, They have however pretty sucessfully hid the truth from the general populace, Most people don't know that the traitor legions once served the imperium as the heresy is almost a myth to the modern Imperium, its events shrouded in mystery the facts are not really known, most people know that 9 evil daemon warlords waged a war against the emperor and that the emperor gave his strength and freedom to defeat them.

The 2 lost legions are able to be purged entirely because of the fact that there is nothing left of them, they were destroyed/redistributed so thoroughly that there is no evidence left my bet is that one was too badly mutated or brought up on a world who's ideaology was too warped to fit in with the imperium, such as daemon worshiping, xenos tolerance, or simillar.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:It's to make you think, "Well, if the others turned traitor and got to stay on the list, what the hell did those other 2 do to get themselves PURGED?!"

Although, it was the Emperor that ordered the lost legions purged from history. It was only the fledgling Imperium that made decisions on how to remember the traitor legions (since the Emperor was busy collecting dust).

The funny thing is that my part in quotes is a paraphrase from the various times GW's addressed it. They want us to think that they did something worse then the Heresy.