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Recently, a friend and I ran into a issue with Coteaz and the DE Webway portal. He had deployed two webways about twenty inches apart, and I had moved a chimera with Coteaz and and a henchman squad including psykers between them so that the 12" bubble completely surrounded the portals. On his turn his Reaver jetbikes came in through the portal, which leads to the issue. His interpretation was that they made their full move then were shot at, mine was they had to be in a legal formation along the line where they were going with one int BtB with the portal. After some discussion between us and another player who plays both armies, the bikes were placed touching the portal and continued their move after being shot at.

So what is Dakka's view, was either one of us right, something in between, or were we completely off base?

He "immediately makes out of sequence shooting attacks at the unit". Looks like you played it right.

You did it right.

GK FAQ says you did it correctly.

Q: When are the shooting attacks from Inquisitor
Coteaz’s I’ve Been Expecting You special rule fired?
(p45)
A: They are fired as soon as a unit that is a valid target
is placed on the board. Once the shooting attacks have
been resolved, the unit can complete its move. If the
unit is arriving by Deep Strike, this will be after the
scatter has been resolved.

There's no question, GW's Grey Knight FAQ says that you have to resolve the shooting where the unit enters play, which in this case is on the edge of the marker.

the webway portal is an extension of your table edge. you do not have to place a valkyrie on the table before you begin measuring distance, why would this be the case for bikes? you measure the distance from the edge of the portal, then place the model inside that radius, meaning if he turbo boosted out of coteaz range he would not be able to fire, as no model was ever on the table.

at least thats how i understand it

Cottonjaw wrote:the webway portal is an extension of your table edge. you do not have to place a valkyrie on the table before you begin measuring distance, why would this be the case for bikes? you measure the distance from the edge of the portal, then place the model inside that radius, meaning if he turbo boosted out of coteaz range he would not be able to fire, as no model was ever on the table.

at least thats how i understand it

Agreed.

You played it wrong.

You do not place models on the table, then move them. You move models onto the table. Measure 12" from the table edge, and move your model on 12".....not put your models on the table edge, then measure 12" forward.

Webway portals are treated as an extension of the table edge. Placing a unit at the edge of the webway portal for any purpose is illegal unless that is its movement. Coteaz gets to shoot at a unit as soon as it is placed on the board. When you move in from reserves, you "place" the model on the board at its final movement position. There are no intermediary placements, there are only two positions:
1. Not on the table
2. On the table, having moved on.

Not trying to start another multipage argument over the issue, but the FAQ says that the shots happen as the unit is placed on the board, then they continue their movement. To me, that would mean they placed on the board in a legal formation, coherency and such, with at least one model in contact with the board edge or portal, as this would be the first point the entire unit would be on the board. The shots are then taken, and after resolving them, the move is finished. Trying to say that they are not on the table at all until placed at the destination does not make sense. If that is how it works, then my IG Hellhound can move onto the board 18" and pass through terrain with no test as long as it doesn't end up in it, because it didn't move over the terrain, it was off the table, then on the table in its final position, having moved on.

pg.94

Each model's move is measured from the edge of the battlefield, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn and moved on as normal. This means it is incorrect to place a model on the board touching the edge and then move it [...]

Trying to say that they are not on the table at all until placed at the destination is exactly what the rules...say. If you have to make difficult terrain tests, the unit's movement distance is modified just as it would be if the unitl started its move at any other point *on the table*.

bushido wrote:pg.94

Each model's move is measured from the edge of the battlefield, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn and moved on as normal. This means it is incorrect to place a model on the board touching the edge and then move it [...]

Trying to say that they are not on the table at all until placed at the destination is exactly what the rules...say. If you have to make difficult terrain tests, the unit's movement distance is modified just as it would be if the unitl started its move at any other point *on the table*.

That's not true. It says that the move is measured from the edge of the board and that it is incorrect to place the models on the table and then move it (as you'd be gaining extra movement distance that way).

Like all movement, models move in an actual path and that path cannot take them, for example, within 1" of an enemy model or in between friendly models where the gap is so small that their base cannot fit.

So in the context of the FAQ ruling it is clear that when Coteaz is in play you have to actually place the moving models on the table where they are arriving. You still measure range from the board edge when finishing their move, but the FAQ and Coteaz's rules represent a more specific situation then described in the basic rules for reserves.

There is literally no other way to interpret the FAQ without completely disregarding what it says.

If the models are not placed on the board until they've finished their move on from the table edge/portal, what compels you to do so earlier?

The FAQ.

You interrupt the movement of a unit as soon as it comes on from a table edge (and is in range). Once shooting has been resolved you complete the move.

If you completed the move first you are ignoring the part of the FAQ that says after shooting you can complete your move.

Any way you slice it Coteaz and his unit get a shot at the unit. It comes through the webway portal, gets shot at, continues to move as normal .The FAQ cleared this issue up pretty nicely. Just one of the advantages to having him as an HQ choice. I think any interpretation but this is a bit of cheese hunting.

Lukus83 wrote:The FAQ.

You interrupt the movement of a unit as soon as it comes on from a table edge (and is in range). Once shooting has been resolved you complete the move.

If you completed the move first you are ignoring the part of the FAQ that says after shooting you can complete your move.

Correct. The big question with Coteaz's rule was exactly what does it mean when a unit 'arrives' within 12" of Coteaz. That was a nebulous term that could either have meant where the unit enters the table from or where the unit ends its move upon entering.

The FAQ clearly answers that question by effectively changing the rules. You are required to place the models on the table where they are arriving, resolve shooting if applicable and then complete their move (which would still be measured from the edge of the board they arrived from as usual).

Again, this FAQ represents a change to the rules, but it is the only way to follow the FAQ.

Lukus83 wrote:The FAQ.

You interrupt the movement of a unit as soon as it comes on from a table edge (and is in range). Once shooting has been resolved you complete the move.

If you completed the move first you are ignoring the part of the FAQ that says after shooting you can complete your move.

The FAQ just seems contradictory, though. In one instance (the unit walking on) you have them being shot before they are actually on the board (which is disregarding the "when the unit is placed" part of it's own ruling). In the other instance (deepstriking) you have them being shot after their initial movement is resolved.

The movement on from the edge seems very similar to the deepstriking scatter (in the sense that unit isn't actually where you place it until you resolve the scatter) since the rulebook tells you not to put the models on the board.

bushido wrote:

The FAQ just seems contradictory, though. In one instance (the unit walking on) you have them being shot before they are actually on the board (which is disregarding the "when the unit is placed" part of it's own ruling). In the other instance (deepstriking) you have them being shot after their initial movement is resolved.

The movement on from the edge seems very similar to the deepstriking scatter (in the sense that unit isn't actually where you place it until you resolve the scatter) since the rulebook tells you not to put the models on the board.

Deep Striking scatter is not 'initial movement', and the FAQ is just clarifying that. If you want to try to argue that Deep Strike scatter is a form of movement then you open up an entirely other can of worms.

There is no discrepancy in the FAQ answer except for the fact that it changes the basic rules for how units normally move onto the table but the answer is clear: you place the models on the table, resolve shooting and then finish the units movement. There is literally no other way to interpret it without completely disregarding the part about finishing the unit's movement after the shooting is resolved.

For deepstriking units though there is only 1 position from a potential of 2 possibilities. The point where you want to land and where you scatter to. The drop pod isn't landing somewhere and then moving along a path to it's new location.

I agree that the special rule does mess up the general rules for movement, but there are a lot of instances of GW messing up the general rules with each new codex.

The way I read it, you choose a point on the edge that each unit arrives from, and Cortez fires at the unit as it emerges. This does allow for the unit to enter play 13" away from Corteaz, not get shot at, but then move to within 12" to get better shooting. This does beg the question, does that mean you can shoot at a vehicle before it gets completely on the table and cause it's destruction by stunning it?
The FAQ says to place the models. I think the OP played it correctly. Place the models, but meausre the total distance moved from the edge.

While I agree that Coteaz's rule allow him to shoot the reavers as they come out of the portal, I see nothing to indicate that you need to line the unit up on/touching the board edge, or that you would need to place the entire unit on the board in coherency before being shot at. There is no requirement to maintain coherency during movement (which is when Coteaz shoots), only at the end of movement.

From the FAQ "They are fired as soon as a unit that is a valid target is placed on the board." For me the issue is when does a unit of multiple models count as being "on the board". Is it when the first model is 0.001" onto the board? Or when the first model's base is fully on the board? Or when the entire unit is fully on the board? This only really matters for blast and template weapons (and pinning weapons if there are any in the GK codex that coteaz can join)

Lukus83 wrote:
I agree that the special rule does mess up the general rules for movement, but there are a lot of instances of GW messing up the general rules with each new codex.

I think it's just a matter of someone not checking how the rulebook is written before making their "clarification."

But Bugs_N_Orks brings up a good point about blast markers...