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2017/10/01 17:13:16
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
At the Start of 8th I loved Scarabs. Legit thought they were the bees knees. After a few games I realised that bring 40-50+ really halted my games because 1) it was eating up my turns, made my games longer which was an issue in tournaments 2) I found my self not really know what to do with so many Scarabs so just put loads on bases and wasted my points basically.
I my self don't usually have anything for CC in my army just usually Bring Scarabs and a Tomb Sentinel as my CC force.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/01 17:13:36
Odrankt wrote: Your all good Klowny, there is quite a lot of posting going on between different members.
I think that Scarabs are good at Counter-Deep string, Denying CC, holding up enemy units that will wreck gak and to act as an "ambush" unit incase your enemy is up in your grill.
I think 2-3 units of 8-9 is loads to do what I have stated above. I usually have a unit body guard my Triarch Stalkers, Immortals and Overlord and use the other to eat smite spam and to help my Tomb Sentinel stay in combat by not letting my enemy fall back into them.
- JNAProductions -
Maths might show Scarabs are better then Wraiths "point of point" but we are playing a Dice game which means we're nearly always playing a different games due to dice rolls. I think it is better to have a unit for dedicated CC (Praetorians and Wraiths) and units that counter it or deny it (Scarabs) then to have a army made based maths alone. The Scarabs might be our best point for point units but that doesnt mean they are going to preform like the maths show. I rather list build on reliability then list build on what should preform better.
Reliability is shown in the dice averages...
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2017/10/01 17:21:12
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
If we're going by dice averages then I have easily rolled more 1s then any other Phaeron here
Math build if you want lads. Just remember we also have to think about or Resilience and survivability. 70+ Scarabs is 210+ wounds which is quite good. But, imagine facing 140 Rattlings, 40 Conscripts and 30+ Mortars with an army of Scarabs?
High wound count, good Toughness, Mobility and Invul saves are the key to surviving. Scarabs only hit 2 of those "Keys" while Wraiths hit 3 easily.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/01 17:22:17
Klowny wrote:I mean, a ravager full of dark lances will vapourise a centipede a turn each.....
Scarabs are meant for DS denial and good against hordes, but not much else. You needed actual anti tank to pop the ravagers and vipers, of which you had very little. Tesseract arks, pylons all would go a long way, D6 shots is much better than d3.
If you took a monolith and CCB against that you would die even quicker. A 20w monolith wouldn't last a turn, and offer way less offence. A CCB without a screen is also the same.
Besides that you dont have much offensive punch, the melee centipede is terrible, the only reason you take them is for the big ol face gun. And thats a not a great idea against an army as mobile as the one you faced with a 12" gun.
What would actually be pretty good against an army like that is massed infantry, meaning his dark lances and ravageres are wasted. That way you can pop the vipers and shoot what is inside.
This was my themed Canoptek list, meant to take on a fair bit of options. DDA, Triarch Stalker, Acanthrites, and Tomb Sentinel were all there specifically for the anti-tank. Its not that I made the list to fight DE specifically, but that's just who I wound up playing against. Also, how dare you sir insult the Tomb Stalker! The thing has eaten dreads and infantry alike. I will not give up my multi-legged baby. As for massed infantry, all I have for models atm are 24 Warriors and 20 Immortals, with ten of each gun.
Odrankt wrote:Drukhari are a pretty mobile and offensive army.
I personally think Gauss Tomb Blades, Tesla Immortals, Tesseract Ark and Triarch Stalker would be a good combination.
May I ask how your Tomb Sentinel and Stalker got popped turn 2?I would presume the Stalker would have been gak at fire but good at CC while the Sentinel would have been more reliable?
Maybe you just didn't play the army right? Everything you listed should have given the Drukhari player. A hard time and not a turn 2 tabling?
We're you playing Offensively or Defensively ?
The Triarch Stalker can move 10" so you could of had 36"+10" (48)" range if you dont mind a -1 to hit. Nearly everyone here has agreed that DDA are pretty lame. The only good thing about them is their mobility and firing power of 10 warriors. You need to field 2-3 DDAs just to make them affective.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It is also quite "bad" to build an army around other armies. Your "new" list might stop your opponents Drukhari but it might be gak towards Orks, Space Marines, Aeldari etc. It's usually better to build the army you want that can basically cover all army threats and then learn that army in side out.
Just don't feel disappointed if your "anti-Drukhair" list can't handle other armies.
Would love to use a Tesseract Ark if I had the money to afford it. Don't really want to use Tomb Blades; I only have 6 Gauss ones and I think they look wonky. Centipedes got popped in a single turn of shooting from massed Dark Lance fire, as well as having the Viper's shoot at them with I think scatter? guns, as well as the occupants. I was playing offensively, but he had target priorities nailed down I feel. If the Acanthrites had made it into combat things would've been mulched. As a side note, it wasn't a turn 2 tabling. We ran out of time by the middle of turn 4. Despite my awful rolling (5 failed saves on the Acanthrites, and 5 failed Reanimations for the immortals), I still had a presence on the table. Just not enough to do anything with. Certainly the most I got from this was that our units are exceptionally overcosted.
skoffs wrote:
FunkBiscuit wrote: thinking about swapping the triarch/doomsday/olord/scarabs for a monolith and CCB
Swapping some of our better units out for some of our worst ones?
Well, hopefully it works out better for you than I would assume would go...
I straight up do not understand how the DDA is considered one of the best options. I feel its mostly considered good because its all we have at all for anti-tank, unless you go FW. Being first place when there are only 2 contenders doesn't make it that noteworthy.
Forgot to add: was thinking CCB and Monolith so I could deep strike the Monolith and immortals into my enemy's face, and have the wasps/wraiths screen the barge as it shoots up field. I need to rethink this seeing as how that leaves me with 3 units on board and 4 in reserve...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/01 18:41:09
2017/10/01 18:24:14
Subject: Re: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
Forgot to add: was thinking CCB and Monolith so I could deep strike the Monolith and immortals into my enemy's face, and have the wasps/wraiths screen the barge as it shoots up field. I need to rethink this seeing as how that leaves me with 3 units on board and 4 in reserve...
You are aware that you risk losing those immortals if the monolith gets shot up the turn it arrives? (you cant drop the immortals the same turn it comes). Just checking, as thats what the guys said would happen.
Odrankt wrote: Your all good Klowny, there is quite a lot of posting going on between different members.
I think that Scarabs are good at Counter-Deep string, Denying CC, holding up enemy units that will wreck gak and to act as an "ambush" unit incase your enemy is up in your grill.
I think 2-3 units of 8-9 is loads to do what I have stated above. I usually have a unit body guard my Triarch Stalkers, Immortals and Overlord and use the other to eat smite spam and to help my Tomb Sentinel stay in combat by not letting my enemy fall back into them.
- JNAProductions -
Maths might show Scarabs are better then Wraiths "point of point" but we are playing a Dice game which means we're nearly always playing a different games due to dice rolls. I think it is better to have a unit for dedicated CC (Praetorians and Wraiths) and units that counter it or deny it (Scarabs) then to have a army made based maths alone. The Scarabs might be our best point for point units but that doesnt mean they are going to preform like the maths show. I rather list build on reliability then list build on what should preform better.
Reliability is shown in the dice averages...
Thats just it, the higher average damage output you get, the more reliable it is.
Now wraiths will certainly live to fight another turn, while the scarabs gets squished by shooting and then by CC, so there definitely is a bigger picture here. Increased survivability always means better value, so it definitely belongs in the equation. Not to mention that increased survivability means they can adapt to shifting tactical pictures, go elsewhere following other plans when needed without dying in the process.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/01 20:51:44
2017/10/01 22:53:25
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
Consider this though when choosing between Wraiths and Scarabs; how often are you going against mortal wound spam versus literally any other gun? Any amount of focused fire on scarabs will shred them up with their 6+ save, and if they happen to have any AP? Nope, say goodbye to handfuls of wounds. Scarabs are cheap for a reason; you get what you pay for with them.
Like yeah I see where you could make the case about mortal wounds, but people aren't all running Tzeentch and Grey Knights
2017/10/02 00:22:26
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
I personally built a list for anti smite, I was against gak loads of Renegades & Here using Malefic Lords (30pts HQ, basically the cheapest smite caster in 8th) as well as Tzeentch Fly Circus. Most of my lists had 6-9 units of Scarabs (around 54-81) and for awhile that worked. I then went up against lots of Orks, Drukhari, IG and Tau. Realised 6+ saves is terrible. Especially when rolling lots of dice or dealing with -1 AP. Bring all the Scarabs you want friend just don't expect it to be competitive.
Also, for those that haven't noticed, 8th is about every unit in every army having a position. Scarabs are great for ambushing, holding objectives, Deepstriking and denying units being charged. Mostly better against T8-9 units but most armies will only have 2-4 units of T8 models so having that many units for those circumstances isn't a viable option due to no save when agaisnt AP-1 or worse and wounding of 5+.
Wraiths are good as Body guards for important units like the Nightbringer, holding really good enemy CC units in Combat so your more important units stay alive so you can fall back and shoot the gak out of those enemy units. They also move through enemy units and Terrain with no penalties so can multi-charge to hold several units up. I don't see Scarabs having that ability or reliability?
Scarabs can't do what Wraiths do and Wraiths can't do what Scarabs do. You need to have a balance to have an effective army. Playing the game will show you this, maths just gives you an idea of what everything "should" turn out to be
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/02 01:03:43
Odrankt wrote: Maths might show Scarabs are better then Wraiths "point of point" but we are playing a Dice game which means we're nearly always playing a different games due to dice rolls. I think it is better to have a unit for dedicated CC (Praetorians and Wraiths) and units that counter it or deny it (Scarabs) then to have a army made based maths alone. The Scarabs might be our best point for point units but that doesnt mean they are going to pro-form like he maths show. I rather list build on reliability then list build on what should preform better.
And that kinda confuses me-I'd rely on math to see which is more reliable, not gut feelings.
I'm not saying you're wrong (I lack ANY experience with 8th edition 'Crons, so obviously I'm speaking purely from theory) especially since it's so dinger-dang ANNOYING to get Scarabs, but I would think you'd want the cold, hard, objective reliability that comes from math, rather than anecdotal evidence.
Like I said, I don't have experience with 'Crons in 8th, so if the tournament winners and your experience tells you otherwise, then that's fine. I just find math is quite the useful tool.
I understand they are more efficient point for point math wise, but from personal tournament experience they are severely underwhelming damage wise.
They still perform great as DS denial and a huge wound pool/screen but they do not do damage.
Heres why:
Sure they might do more damage point for point than wraiths if all are in combat, but that is almost never the case. They are primarily used as a defensive screen, so 99/100 times you have a squad of 9 spanning half the table. They get charged, and suddenly only 3 or 4 MAX can fight back, and thats even when your pulling the ones from the other side of the board. You posted previous maths before, stating that you can get double the amount of scarabs for the same price as wraiths, and showed that that amount of scarabs does more damage against a target than the wraiths, however it is almost logistically impossible for this to happen due to the base sizes, the fact they are spread out across the whole board and the 6+ save they get.
You never, ever get 1st turn charges with them, meaning they will do their actual job and soak fire, and being T3 6+ means they die when they are focused, which is usually what happens due to them screening the big juicy targets behind them.
So in a perfect mathematical world you are right, they outperform their S6 T5 ap-1 3++ counterparts, but realistically the wraiths are what you take if you want offensive punch while also screening well, denying the board and soaking up damage. Scarabs are good for screening duties, and horde control. Nothing T4 3+ and better takes a bunch of damage from them. :(
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2017/10/02 02:03:25
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
Dont get me wrong, I took 27 bases to my last tournament thinking they would do work for me. I saw almost no hordes, and as a result they underperformed compared to my expectations.
Had i seen conscripts, or brimstones, or more gaunts, then yes, they would do work, but if you see more power armour than not, they aren't worth the points vs wraiths (offensively, they still have a place in an army, Im still runnin 8-16 depending on sideboards of next tournament)
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2017/10/02 10:11:56
Subject: Re: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
Concerning Wraiths and Scarabs.
Here's my opinion:
Scarabs Scarabs are screening units. I use them to receive charges rather than charging. Sure there are situations where they should charge. I use them in units of 5-6.
Wraiths Wraiths I use to either charge enemy vehicles or small infantry units. They can also fill the same screening role as Scarabs and take charges. Your next turn you can simply fall back with them in any direction. They are also a very mobile distraction carnifex. I take them in units of 4-6.
Damage output When it comes to damage output both are very mediocre. On paper Scarabs are clearly better, but then you have to field large units and hope that every model can fight. I don't use any of them because of the damage they can do.
Toughness Wraiths can survive more damage point for point thanks to higher toughness.
Objective holding Both units are good at holding objectivs and have their uses. Wraiths can take more damage and Scarabs can be hidden.
What I use I usually have one of each unit in my list. Perhaps two units of Scarabs if I can afford them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/02 13:35:07
2017/10/02 12:34:05
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
It's a fairly close race in dmg output between Wraiths and Scarabs. It's only against T-shirt saves scarabs have their real advantage in dmg output, and its still at best twice the damage (T3/6+).
Meanaing if you start losing a 1/3 or 1/4 of them before you get to deal the damage, then the advantage is gone.
2017/10/02 15:07:24
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
If the scenario comes up where dethmarks intercept deathmarks and it chains off of that, how is that resolved?
Scenario - I infiltrate in a squad of flayed ones so in response my opponent Ethereal Interceptions them with a squad of deathmarks. In response to this I Ethereal Interception his squad with my squad then he Ethereal Interceptions that squad with his second and I Ethereal Interception that second with my second.
A) All shooting attacks are simultaneous.
B) This chains backwards from the last deployed Deathmark squad allowing player 1 to diminish the effectiveness of player 2's deathmarks before they shoot at my other deathmarks etc.
C) This Chains forwards from the first deployed deathmark squad so no one is short changed.
D) Whoever was the last to play deathmarks it is their current shooting phase and therefor they shoot all their deathmarks at this point at their various targets. Then it becomes the other players shooting phase and they can shoot any of their deathmarks that are left at their targets.
E) Other - Explain
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/10/02 15:33:21
I was almost tempted to start buying orks and modeling/painting them with a french theme.
If only so I could begin the pardonné waghh.
2017/10/02 18:23:59
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
I would say they trigger one after another, ie last-in-first - out, but if FAQ'ed GW would probably rule it by the law of sequencing, ie the player who's turn it is decides who shoots first.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/02 18:24:37
2017/10/02 23:19:32
Subject: Re: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
BillyN831 wrote: Do you prefer staff of light or warscythe? Thanks.
Warscythe every time for me. We need some deterrent in CC, even if it is a pale shadow of what it once was.
Played a good 1500 pt game vs Blood Angels last week. Ended up a draw at the bottom of 4 turns since the store was closing down. But, I think if it had continued another turn, I miiiight have been able to table him.
We'll never know.
Bedouin Dynasty: 10000 pts
The Silver Lances: 4000 pts
The Custodes Winter Watch 4000 pts
MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum.
2017/10/03 03:22:41
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
My MVP in that game where the 10 tesla Immortals who simply refused to die. Criptek 5++ and 4+ RP meant that they kept him occupied for 3 turns after suffering to put out my tomb blades squad.
That one didn't go so well due to smite. In retrospect, I should have just sat over in range and cycle units in and out of smite range. MVP there where my tesla tomb blades wrecking face of the splitting horrors despite the Changeling buff.
My MVP in that game where the 10 tesla Immortals who simply refused to die. Criptek 5++ and 4+ RP meant that they kept him occupied for 3 turns after suffering to put out my tomb blades squad.
That one didn't go so well due to smite. In retrospect, I should have just sat over in range and cycle units in and out of smite range. MVP there where my tesla tomb blades wrecking face of the splitting horrors despite the Changeling buff.
I looked at the pretty pictures and used google translate.
That Destroyer Lord was a bit crazy in the game against Tzeentch.
I still havent tried out Tomb blades in 8th. Everyone seems to be using them.
What unit size do you find optimal?
2017/10/03 13:32:04
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
Odrankt wrote: I think 6 is a comfortable size for a unit of Tomb Blades. I would personally take 2 units of 6 over 1 unit of 9.
I just find it hard to shell out 300 points for 12 T5 wounds and 3+ save.
However I will try them out in a few friendly games and see what happens.
Welllll, for a few points more you could always get 15 T5 wounds with a 3+ save?
For 315 you'd get 5x Destroyers
For 306 you'd get 6x Tomb Blades w/ Shields and Scopes
If we assume the TBs have Gauss, how comparable are they?
TBs are faster, will be ignoring cover and have more shots.
Destroyers have more wounds with rerolls to hit and better AP.
2017/10/03 16:50:43
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
I think it's Tomb Blades > Destroyers in my opinion.
Tomb Blades are more versatile and have a better shot out put. 1 TB = 2x rapid fire 1 at S5 -2 D 1 per model (or 4 shots in rapid fire). 1 Destroyer = 1 Heavy 2 S5 -3 D D3.
You can also give TB Ignore cover or 5+ invul with +1 save. Destroyers get too Re-roll hit rolls of 1 and ignore -1 to hit.
Tomb Blades are better at killing Infantry and models with 1 wound. Destroyers are better at light-vehicles or models/units with several wounds.
You want your Tomb Blades to get as close as possible while your Destroyers camp back in a building popping Terminators or Rhinos.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/03 16:57:16
So like if a unit fails a morale test and the commissar would kill someone to keep the unit in or something, is that negated and they make the test normally?
---
If im running a Destroyer squad and I select a heavy as part of the squad, can the heavy get back up if regular destroyers are alive in that squad, or vice versa?
ex: Squad - 5 Destroyers, 1 Heavy Destroyer.
Turn 1 - Enemy kills 5 destroyers but my Heavy destroyer of that squad is still up. On my turn can I reprot those 5 destroyers back up around my heavy?
Turn 2 - I got back a few destroyers but the enemy only kills one base this turn and I take it to the heavy. On my turn can I re prot that heavy destroyer back up around my regulars cause it's the same squad?
*NM - Confirmed that RP is based on a particular unit, therefor even if different types of models are in the same unit so long as they all have RP any can get back up on that unit.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/03 18:14:17
I was almost tempted to start buying orks and modeling/painting them with a french theme.
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