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If a model has 2 weapons modeled to it (as an example, my SM scout has a rocket launcher and sniper rifle on it) can it use one or the other as long as the one specified in the army list is the one being used?

Ask your opponent.

It's a rules issue, not an opponent issue.

Actually, it's both. The rule states the gear to be used must be represented on the model (either by the actual model or a "counts as" model). There isn't anything that states a model cannot have MORE gear that is not used.

Simply tell your opponent that the sniper rifle (or missile launcher) is there merely for aesthetics purposes and not part of the army for the game. If your opponent objects, either proxy the offending model or don't play with the opponent.

I have yet to play with an opponent (friendly or tournament) that objected to how my models looked when played this way.

I think, if you strictly interpret WYSWYG, then it'd have both, but at the same time, the model can't legally be armed with both. Frankly, I doubt anyone but the worst TFG would disallow it as long as you clearly state what the model is armed with, have it written in your army list, and don't try any funny business in game.

Heck, I personally wouldn't even care if you wrote it down, just said which it was at the beginning of the game and didn't try to switch mid game.

Others may be less forgiving. I'm actually not sure what the by-the-book ruling on this would be.

Draconicwraith wrote:It's a rules issue, not an opponent issue.

Well then you're out of luck. pg. 47 in the box says "so your opponent can clearly see what they are facing."

If your scout is modeled with both a missile launcher and a snipers rifle your opponent cannot clearly see what they are facing as they have no idea by just looking which one of those weapons the model actually has.

So Lordhat was right. Ask your opponent. Most people won't care and 90% of the people who do care won't say anything because they don't want to seem petty by complaining about such a minor thing. But if you don't point it out before the game starts you're asking for ill will.

TheGreatAvatar wrote: There isn't anything that states a model cannot have MORE gear that is not used.

Rules are permissive... Nothing says you can. Now there are rules that say model the gear a model has... nothing that says model gear a model DOESN'T have.

It is called OVERMODELING. It is seen as just as bad as proxying. Overmodeling and saying 'oh, he has a PK not a Big Choppa this time' is just as confusing, if not more confusing than a PROXY.

If your opponent expects Proxies, then he should be fine with Overmodels. If the event or opponent wants WYSIWYG, your Overmodeled are just as invalid as proxies.

Ask your opponent.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:Actually, it's both. The rule states the gear to be used must be represented on the model (either by the actual model or a "counts as" model). There isn't anything that states a model cannot have MORE gear that is not

WYSIWYG works both ways. If the model is carrying more gear than it should be, what you're seeing is not what you're getting.

At the end of the day, the key is transparency. Your opponent hsould be able to tell by looking at your army what he is facing. Modelling stuff that shouldn't be there is just as problematic as not modelling stuff that should be.

I wouldn't have a problem with it as long as every scout isn't armed with a RL and a SR yet you say only one of them is carrying a ML. If the only model in the squad that is armed with a ML then also having a SR wouldn't phase me as long as it is pointed out.

i wouldnt play you and it woyldnt be wysiwyg at all

I wouldn't have any problem with this as long as it is like GreenNutz said they aren't all that way and only one has a ML. Then again I have never been that big on WYSIWYG as long as I can tell what is what without having to ask a million times.

Tie a little ribbon to the weapon you aren't using and call it a Purity Seal.

Homer

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:i wouldnt play you and it woyldnt be wysiwyg at all

Really? Wow.

As long as what the model has is clear I am good to go. I don't care if its modeled 100% correct as long as its easy to tell what's going on. So saying a model doesn't have an item is generally okay. When I need scrap paper to keep up with what is something else or isn't there, I get upset.

For example. If you say all flamers are melta's or all these guys who have Missile launcher's don't have them, that's cool.

If you have say this guy really has X, and this one is Y and this unit has X but not Y, it's a little much.

Just to point out, in my original posting about this, I stated specifically "as long as the one specified in the army list is the one being used" which I think got lost in the discussion.

Draconicwraith wrote:Just to point out, in my original posting about this, I stated specifically "as long as the one specified in the army list is the one being used" which I think got lost in the discussion.

I didn't lose it I was just agreeing with an example that I would not like that was simmilar to yours...I would have no problem playing you if you played that model as I would know exaclty what he has.

It didn't get lost. I was just clearing up that I wouldn't have a problem with it as long as he is the only model in the squad with both a ML and SR. If you have the entire squad armed that way but tell me only one has a ML I'd have issues. Especially when you start removing casualties.

Draconicwraith wrote:It's a rules issue, not an opponent issue.

It's an opponent issue.

According to the rules the model may not have both.

I have never run into a wysiwyg nazi, tell the person before hand what is not wysiwyg and you should have np. If you do then people will not like playing that person an they prob won't be around very long anyways. I have done crazy stuff on my models, and having a melta on the back of a marine an a flamed in his hands is common for me if I don't use magnets. It looks crazy cool too. I play in lots of tournaments also....so just dont go crazy on every model keep it limited and your fine.

Why not simply magnetize the weapon?

Connor McKane wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:i wouldnt play you and it woyldnt be wysiwyg at all

Really? Wow.

I spent alot of time converting and getting bits for my armies, extra bodies to have extra weapons I may want to use in the future. Firstly A scout model with a sniper and MSL is not wysiwyg it's also not allowable in codex. Lastly let me rephrase this If it looks questionable I more than likely will not play an opponent. Hell half the time i wont play an unpainted army ...

Opponents are few and far between in my area, so I can't be picky with who I play. The only thing I will not played are unfinished models. If you have legs glued to a base and are claiming it to Calgar, you aren't playing me.

Legal wise, extra weapons is not WYSIWYG, so not legal. If it looks good, i will play it to death.

-cgmckenzie

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Connor McKane wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:i wouldnt play you and it woyldnt be wysiwyg at all

Really? Wow.

I spent alot of time converting and getting bits for my armies, extra bodies to have extra weapons I may want to use in the future. Firstly A scout model with a sniper and MSL is not wysiwyg it's also not allowable in codex. Lastly let me rephrase this If it looks questionable I more than likely will not play an opponent. Hell half the time i wont play an unpainted army ...

No offense but I would like to see your army since you have it on a Godly pedestal. I spend a lot of time painting my models gathering bits etc also. I will play any army that’s sitting across from me, painted or not. As long as the models are put together, and on occasion not, (all depending on the players circumstances)...I will still play. This game is about playing, and having fun...not stroking the epeen saying my army is too good to be on the same table as yours. Sorry bro, sometimes you gotta suck it up an just play an have fun...otherwise your the critter off in the corner by yourself asking people if they have seen your baseball, and wandering from table to table annoying people.

I would have no problem so long as you are clear at the beginning which weapon the mini has that game. Do you have a picture of the mini you could share?

I would mind if it was just a base, or even just legs. I don't care if it is painted. (although I would prefer it) I just need to be able to look at it and go oh this rhino is a razorback since he has no rhinos and told me BEFORE HAND that all rhinos razorbacks with TL LC.

Kal-El wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Connor McKane wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:i wouldnt play you and it woyldnt be wysiwyg at all

Really? Wow.

I spent alot of time converting and getting bits for my armies, extra bodies to have extra weapons I may want to use in the future. Firstly A scout model with a sniper and MSL is not wysiwyg it's also not allowable in codex. Lastly let me rephrase this If it looks questionable I more than likely will not play an opponent. Hell half the time i wont play an unpainted army ...

No offense but I would like to see your army since you have it on a Godly pedestal. I spend a lot of time painting my models gathering bits etc also. I will play any army that’s sitting across from me, painted or not. As long as the models are put together, and on occasion not, (all depending on the players circumstances)...I will still play. This game is about playing, and having fun...not stroking the epeen saying my army is too good to be on the same table as yours. Sorry bro, sometimes you gotta suck it up an just play an have fun...otherwise your the critter off in the corner by yourself asking people if they have seen your baseball, and wandering from table to table annoying people.

Oddly enough one of our store rules are No unpainted models on the table. Of course we're leniant towards new players and new purchases =)

I dont have a pedastal really my army is slightly better than table top standard and it took a long time to do. In no way shape or form an outstanding paint job. Friends that play are more hobbyist than player and it kinda rubbed off on me. I mean it's diferent if a 14 yr old rookie wants to play a game and get some advice vs a lazy person who won't even prime their army.
I'll take a couple pics in a week or so you can see what I mean by no good =) paint job ( in the middle of a move atm) things packed away in the Van ready for the new house roadtrip tomorrow and sunday (woot) =(

The sniper rifle was damaged in a previous battle but served it's master well and now he keeps it around for nostalgia. If you can come up with the fluff for it I'll play it. "Why have you got an army of grey ork legs on the table"? "They are my ghost ork army". Good enough for me.

omy store has a no unpainted modal rule.as long as its basecoated its fine.as some modals only need a basecoat.my own vindicare assassin is simply sprayed black.

on the matter at hand,if the weapon is modaled onto a part of the modals legs or something,like the knife on the missle launcher marine from black reach,then it probably doesnt count.if your opponent says it counts then say fine,bye bye and look for an opponent that follows the Most Important Rule,that says have fun.you cant have fun because opponents nagging you because GW gave your modal has a rifle atached to it.

My friend plays as eldar, and everyone he plays against has always known that with him, anything that looks like a brightlance is really a rocket launcher. He always reminds us at the beginning of every battle, however. I carve my own models, and don't glue in stuff that represents options (like an amulet granting master of sorcery). I believe that as long as you and your opponent are aware of what counts-as, doesn't count, or invisible options your models have, that's perfectly fine. As long as they're included in point values.

Maybe I'm totally off base here, but in my book, WYSIWYG is under the Characters section, and specifically references characters (p. 47). If there's another section in the book that reference WYSIWYG for non characters, please point me to the right page. As it stands, I've only ever had lenient opponents, and I treat my opponents the same as long as both of us know what is actually on the table.