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Do you have that one opponent that simply can't seem to win? I write my lists before I purchase anything. As I playtest, I'll make modifications as necessary and I'm always ready to put a bit more money into the army as I find out what I like and don't like.

Currently, my opponent's army looks roughly like this:

Abaddon
Chaos Lord - Demon Weapon, Mark of Khorne
4 Terminators with Twin LCs & Land Raider
9 Berserkers in a Rhino
2 x 10 Marines in a Rhino
2 Vindicators
Predator with Autocannon & Heavy Bolter Sponsons

I played him with my Dark Eldar which are:

Vect
Haemonculus
3 x 4 Trueborn with 4 Blasters each in Venoms with 2 Splinter Cannons
8 Wyches in a Raider with Flickerfield
5 x 5 Warriors with 1 Blaster each in Venoms with 2 Splinter Cannons
3 Ravagers with Flickerfields

Short of simply not shooting my weapons, I don't know how to give him a better shot at winning the game. He said Tuesday he simply believes his army can't beat mine. I pointed out he could use some Obliterators if he wanted a lot stronger army in general, but he said he isn't interested in putting more money into the army. Instead, he's going to build pre-Heresy Iron Warriors, which it seems will be a rather random collection of FW miniatures.

Tactically, my opponent seems to do ok. Our mission was Dawn of War and Kill Points. He won the roll for first, kept it, and opted to place a the Lord, Bereskers, and their Rhino at the halfway point. I failed to seize and he rolled everything forward onto the board and popped smoke. First turn, I stayed in my transports and knocked out the Land Raider via a Ravager, the Lord's Rhino via Blasters, and Mrs. Vect & co. killed the tasty insides. The game went downhill from there.

This was a picture I took on my iPhone (apologies for the blur) at the end of my movement phase on Turn 2:



From left to right, I moved up and disembarked Warriors / Warriors / Warriors / Trueborn / Trueborn / Warriors / Trueborn so that I could engage multiple targets with my Blasters. What you can't see is the 2nd Vindicator and Abaddon / Termies on foot off to the right of the image.

On the one hand, he isn't going to learn if I "take it easy on him." On the other, I don't want him to outright refuse to play me or that particular army, especially with all the time, money, and effort I've put into it. He says he has a good time even when he loses, but I can't imagine getting tabled in 3 turns is a lot of fun. For the record, I'm not the only guy in our local group that trounces his army consistently, nor do I think I'm some 40k savant.

I offer advice mid-game, remind him to pop smoke, and try to have a good game. Because I write my lists before I build them, I can't exactly switch much. I could use a different army entirely, such as my Necrons or foot GKTs, but I've just finished assembling my Venoms and I'm really itching to keep using them.

What are your thoughts and suggestions?

Is this a 1,500 point game? You said his tactics may be sound, but as a Chaos player myself many alarms are screaming in my head. Unfortunately I see DE as the hard counter to MEQ armies, which makes it harder.

Abaddon
Chaos Lord - Demon Weapon, Mark of Khorne
4 Terminators with Twin LCs & Land Raider
9 Berserkers in a Rhino
2 x 10 Marines in a Rhino
2 Vindicators
Predator with Autocannon & Heavy Bolter Sponsons

How can we improve on this? First of all, despite how cool or strong Abbadon is, he isn't cost efficient at this point level. I'd try to stay away from the Chaos Lord as well. Try to swap in Daemon Princes or Chaos Sorcerers (my personal favorite). Sorcs and DP's can have lash, but it's effectiveness is decreased when in a heavy mech metagame. Some I go Tzeentch DW Chaos Lord against my less competitive friends, D6 S6 AP3 shots is pretty gnarly. DE eats Daemon Princes. Lash spam gets boring for me too, but if you think he needs it encourage him.

Next I see the four terminators and a Land Raider, and I'm guessing Abby is in there. That's a party and all, but when the Land Raider is popped there goes 1/6 of your army list. All it takes is one lucky Lascannon shot. I'd suggest shooty Chosen instead if he wants elites, or he can just free up the points.

Nine Berzerkers (Why not throw a power weapon in there?) in a Rhino are cool too, you can throw a Sorc in there because of the ten transport. If he is bent on the LR they can go in there for maximum killy carnage, but I'd prefer the Rhino myself.

Vanilla CSM are good, I use them a lot (not to mention Thousand Sons, but Dakka hates them). Make sure they have melta guns and a power fist, then they can take down anything.

I like Vindicators because winning is Oblit spam is boring, Daemonic Possession on then is a MUST!

Predator is lackluster, I'd can it.


With basic structure here we have (I'm at work, no book on hand, so if somebody could double check points that'd be cool):

Chaos Sorcerer: Mark of Tzeentch, Breath of Chaos, Personal Icon 150 Here we get a 3+/4++, and an armor ignoring template with a force weapon

Chaos Terminators x3: x3 Combi-Melta Can Drop to PIcons or banners without scatter, free vehicle kill here.

Chaos Space Marines, Melta x2, PF Champ, Icon of Chaos Undivided, Rhino w/Havoc Launcher 270 Solid Squad, Rhino usually does decent damage and makes the points back AND is a good transport

Chaos Space Marines, Melta x2, PF Champ, Icon of Chaos Undivided, Rhino w/Havoc Launcher 270 And another

Khorne Berzerkers x9, Skull Champ w/Power Weapon and (Plasma Pistol*) (5 S5 I5 Ignoring Armor Attacks on the Charge!), Rhino w/Havoc Launcher 264 (279*)

Chaos Vindicator with Daemonic Possession 145 Pisses all over glances, fires S10 and doesn't afraid of anything

Chaos Vindicator with Daemonic Possession 145 Always takes these bad boys in pairs, one dies and the other kills

Predator with Lascannon Sponsons 135 If he needs to have his pred and doesn't want to buy take it in this setup

List comes in at 1484, with our extra 16 points I added a plasma pistol to the Skull Champ. Yes he becomes expensive now, but with 16 points what's the harm? You can also add random vehicle upgrades, such as Dirge Casters or Pintle Bolters on all of the heavy support. That's my two cents, investing in Pre-Heresy Iron Warriors won't make him a better player. Half of this game is creating a strong list, and it looks like it's your duty to help him out there. I tried to use models that he has when I made this, the Chaos Lord can count as a Sorc. I just bought the new fantasy Tz Sorc for my CSM army!

Well, What he can do is just proxy the termies as oblits, they are the same size and all. His vindicares are great, but against you, i don't really see why he needs large blast templates. What he needs is lots of long ranged anti-tank so that he can munch your transports before they get there. Proxy the vindicares as autocannon/lascannon preds. You could also play with a larger, more open table, so that your venoms have difficulty grabbing cover.

Eh, I'm not a fan of proxy myself. I'm okay when my opponents do it (to an extent) and I do it myself time to time when testing out units, but I suggest always going WYSIWYG as much as possible. It's easier for both players and for observers as well.

Why don't you see large blast as good? S10 decimates 10 10 10 Open Topped Vehicles, and S5 isn't too shabby considering you can hit multiple vehicles AND it's ordinance, 2d6 and pick the highest. My luckiest time ever was successfully seizing and killing three Raiders on turn one with one Vindicator. Vindi's stomp ravagers too. Well, anything does... Just make sure his tanks get cover. Sometimes I'll position a Daemon Prince or Greater Daemon next time a tank, fire the tank, then run the daemon in front of the tank to claim cover for my opponents shooting phase.

I should have mentioned this is 2000 and he has Demonic Possession on everything. I think I accounted for everything in his list.

I agree with your points above, but I don't think he'd be willing to buy anything to change. He's always worried about building his next army.

I don't throw games because my opponent refuses to fix his army. In this case, let him know that I'd he doesn't fix his list, he simply cannot win against you.

-cgmckenzie

Justus wrote:Eh, I'm not a fan of proxy myself. I'm okay when my opponents do it (to an extent) and I do it myself time to time when testing out units, but I suggest always going WYSIWYG as much as possible. It's easier for both players and for observers as well.

Why don't you see large blast as good? S10 decimates 10 10 10 Open Topped Vehicles, and S5 isn't too shabby considering you can hit multiple vehicles AND it's ordinance, 2d6 and pick the highest. My luckiest time ever was successfully seizing and killing three Raiders on turn one with one Vindicator. Vindi's stomp ravagers too. Well, anything does... Just make sure his tanks get cover. Sometimes I'll position a Daemon Prince or Greater Daemon next time a tank, fire the tank, then run the daemon in front of the tank to claim cover for my opponents shooting phase.

I dunno, I just don't really like using large blasts to fight tanks. The scatter is just such a pain, and even if you don't scatter much, the template hole has to be over the vehicle. Of course, i have bad luck with hit rolls on the scatter dice, so i may be a bit biased. If they work for you, thats fine.

My luck with scatter is really nice. I did a doubles tourney with my Eldar buddy and I ran dual Vindicators. I only didn't get a "Hit" on the scatter die once, but I rolled a three on the 2d6, so I didn't scatter anyway!

I throw games when the other person isn't having fun or appears to not be having fun. I won't throw it completely, but I might try an assault I know i can't make, or shoot at a terrible target choice so they can try to catch up...

example I have 2 groups of 15 lootas I COULD open up a few transports and slow an army but if I'm alrady in the lead I might even things up by trying to shoot a higher armor valuse target or a unit in cover that's not a threat that way my opponent gets to try to make back some lost ground. I'll also sometimes let the person reroll just bescause it is a bad roll and well below statistical average... or say statistically 5 should have hit not 2 so lets have you roll 5 to wound instead of 2.. I think of it like a self enforced handicap. there's a freidnd i have set handicap or reroll vehicle penetration and reroll any sucessful nob rolls (if i pass 4+ armor or 4+ fnp i reroll, on a fail i count as failed for it and nob gets a wound) .. even things out pretty well

Never, not under any conditions.

I will happily converse with my opponent about what he could have done differently, both from a strategic and army list point of view.

I dont throw games. Plain and simple. If someone is new and Im showing them how to play, Ill take a much less effective ORk build, usually this is when I play with odd units in the codex. But I never do the "OOPS! I FORGOT TO DO THIS POTENTIALLY GAME WINNING MOVE OVER THERE! WOE IS ME" kind of thing.

I don't throw games, but I will advise my opponent on what he wants to do next, or what he just did wrong and allow him to take it back(mostly movement).

That said, as was earlier pointed out, the list itself is your opponents problem(both of them). You have a rather strong list, he has a rather weak one. He has nearly 1/3 his entire army in 2 models, and just over half in 4 units(assuming the LR and Termies are bare, those 120 points in Termies, and 220 in LR + Abbaddon and Lord is 755 points, lose 4 units, lose 1/2 your army is going to be painful, especially when those 4 units are 7 total models).

The Pred is not bad, adding a Havok launcher would be better.

HL on the Rhinos would also do well.

Keep the vindicators, but remind him he can move-and-fire them.

No need to play stupid or throw games. All you need to do is bring a C list, or just try something new. That will balance it out much more. Giving some basic tips on strategy and common tricks should be done as well, unless unwelcome.

When the new player learns how his army works and wins a few games, you can up the challenge by switching from a C list to a B list. Then eventually he will do well against your A list as well.

Beating up a new player with your deathstar A-list with all the GW rules loopholes and imbalances can frustrate the person enough that they may never play again. Or they may keep coming back expecting to lose and may not try very hard out of hopelessness. Very few people are sufficiently strong spiritually to keep coming back after consecutive beatings and give it all they can.

Never.

I much prefer helping newer players before, during, and after the game, by showing them the strengths and weaknesses of all the units on the table, as well as the general strategy for their use. If they ask for advice, I give it. If they want, I help them build lists. However, I never throw a game. It shows a lack of respect for both myself and my opponent.

The only way people can learn is though experience. If I throw a game, my opponent will think that his strategy/list is sound, and he will continue to use it. This is not helpful.

It is better to show them the error of their plan/list, exploit their weakness, and defeat them. Then, if they are willing to listen, go back and take the time to show them how they could have done better, either with their list, or their play.

I concede when I know I'm losing and the game would take an hour or more to finish. I'd rather try to get a rematch in than play it out to its inevitable result.

I'd not throw a game, but use the few turns left as a learning exercise.
Look at what you have left on the table, and try the most outlandish moves you can, just to see how they turn out.

Conceding, unless it is to get in another game, is a waste IMHO

Just to be clear, conceding and throwing a game are not the same.

I have conceded a few games, when the outcome was crystal clear and my position did not offer any possibilities of meaningful resistance. In such situations, there is no point wasting your time to toss pipped plastic cubes on a table for no benefit. Conversely, I have fought many battles where the outcome was mostly determined, but I just liked to see how much more damage I could cause before losing and in what inventive ways that could be done (incidentally, I pulled out a miracle a few times). None of these cases is about throwing a game.

Throwing a game means you play poorly by intention.

So a bad list from a crappy codex vs a decent (though it has a rather glaring weakness, but its one your opponent can't really exploit) list from a great codex. Yeah, unless your opponent is the reincarnation of Scipio Africanus, he isn't going to win many games if any.

Just accept that he is going to be a scrub competitively as long as he doesn't want to change what isn't working. Playing against scrubs sucks if you want to be a competitive gamer, but it can still be fun to set up narrative games with him. This type of play is as legitimate as the more "serious business" style of play. Since he is obviously interested in using FW type units, setting up some IA focused scenarios might be better. If this isn't what you like to do, well, you will need to find another opponent unfortunately (its no good when only 1 player is having fun).

DarknessEternal wrote:Never, not under any conditions.

I will happily converse with my opponent about what he could have done differently, both from a strategic and army list point of view.

This will do your friend the most good. If you let up then you are setting him up to fail against others.

A friend of mine regularly destroys me. He puts a lot more into the game than I do and sees so many things that I miss. But if he relaxes then I won't learn from him.

So my vote is to play all out but also talk about lists, odds of success, deployment strategy, etc. whenever you can.

Oaka wrote:I concede when I know I'm losing and the game would take an hour or more to finish. I'd rather try to get a rematch in than play it out to its inevitable result.

Really? An hour? Ive had games before, where it was grim, I was losing so badly, there was no WAY I could of done anything. But as always I stuck it out, and I can tell ya, about half of "those" games, Ive ended up pulling a tie out of em, much better then a loss, AND it makes you look better as a player sticking it out.

KingCracker wrote:

Oaka wrote:I concede when I know I'm losing and the game would take an hour or more to finish. I'd rather try to get a rematch in than play it out to its inevitable result.

Really? An hour? Ive had games before, where it was grim, I was losing so badly, there was no WAY I could of done anything. But as always I stuck it out, and I can tell ya, about half of "those" games, Ive ended up pulling a tie out of em, much better then a loss, AND it makes you look better as a player sticking it out.

Not all armies can pull out something like that, orks and marines can take a beating, and still fight for a draw or at least a closer loss, but eldar, dark eldar, tau, chaos daemons can be put in situations where there literately no chance of victory rather quickly (usually missteps, but they also often have lynchpin units that can be knocked out, or just be facing a hard counter for their army)

I usually throw it when I'm behind (say, 5 KP's on turn 4) to thge point that continuimng really has no benefit for either me or my opponent. Its the same as my opponents; typically one will concede prior to being tabled. People do NOT like being tabled, and I don't blame em lol.

Your foes list is lackluster, at best, while yours is a typical netlist minus vect which most people don't use. So its no surprise he can't beat you; he lacks ranged AT and you have all the tools to win.

He needs to cut abby and the chaos lord; I love slaneesh sorcs with lash in rhinos. They are more effective than DP's in my eyes and harder to kill due to units. Probably grab a few oblits as mentioned, more nilla CSM squads, cut the raider and termis, and grab more zerker squads (2 would be best). Its pretty much bad list vs good list and unless you roll poorly your buddy really has no chance.

At 2000 points, his list just doesn't have enough units to deal with your army.

He needs to get rid of some of those expensive choices and expand his numbers.

On your end, try going all-reserves. This will give him a turn to get closer unhindered, and about half your army will come on turn 2, rather than everything.

It's hardly "throwing the game", it's just making a tactical decision that isn't optimal, since you've basically got the game in the bag and can do what you want with him. This way, he has a bit more of a chance.

Also, try calling all your blasters shredders. Taking your anti-tank down to only a few darklances would really even things out.

One thing that might be missing in the equasion is your opponents thoughts. Ask him what he want out of the game. Does he want to play versus strong lists? Does he even care about getting better? He may just be interested in playing some cool characters he has in a for-fun-only game.

If he is only interested in cool characters butting heads, then you can either continue beating his face until he 'gets' that you want to play competitive, or you can thow a wonky list together with special characters and cool models and have a field day. You will finally get to use mandrakes at least.

You're running a high-speed min-max tournament-style DE build against a pretty awful CSM build. What does he expect? You altering your play-style isn't going to fix anything here.

I don't have to throw games, my Dice useally do that for me..

cgmckenzie wrote:I don't throw games because my opponent refuses to fix his army. In this case, let him know that I'd he doesn't fix his list, he simply cannot win against you. -cgmckenzie

NO!

G00fySmiley wrote:I throw games when the other person isn't having fun or appears to not be having fun. I won't throw it completely, but I might try an assault I know i can't make, or shoot at a terrible target choice so they can try to catch up...

Almost there....

KingCracker wrote:I dont throw games. Plain and simple. If someone is new and Im showing them how to play, Ill take a much less effective Ork build...

YES! I think this is the best course to take. If, for some reason, your opponent cannot change his army (maybe due to funds or whatever), then just take a less effective build. Basically, make sure that the two armies you are playing are of relatively similar powers and you'll have a fun game. If he keeps on losing because he's not a very good general, then handicap yourself with a very 'fun' list.

This way, you still get to PLAY the game just as hard, but your changes are much more even. This is much more fun than having to deliberately play badly for an entire game...

My Dark Eldar fit my playstyle very well. I'm a former long-time Wood Elf player. I enjoy theorizing and writing several different lists as well. With this army, I wanted something strong, effective, and in my comfort zone.

The general consensus is more or less what I expected. I can't alter my list much as I wrote the list before I began purchasing everything. I can swap a few Warrior squads for Wych squads in Raiders (and I need to get inspired enough to do all the trimming necessary to put my Wracks together).

For the time being, I think I'll continue to constructively criticize his gameplay and army and take my all-GKT list against him more often.

My opponent typically takes whatever he thinks is "cool" and does what he can with it once he hits the tabletop. My GKT are similar in that vein. I built 2000 points of them because I love the models! I did better than expected at Wargamescon with them though.

Wolf 11x wrote:
My opponent typically takes whatever he thinks is "cool" and does what he can with it once he hits the tabletop.

This is exactly the type of gamer I am, and I think there are quite a few of us out there. You need to be careful with the constructive criticism, though, as oftentimes these players really do want to try to make the models they chose work, so keep the criticism to what can be done with those particular units. For example, I don't appreciate being told time and time again when I post army lists "You should drop all three of your talos' for ravagers, they're better", that type of crap criticism only irks me. It's likely that your opponent is aware of what the best units and choices are for his army. I think shelving your tournament DE army for your 'fun' GK army is a step in the right direction against this particular opponent.

Oaka wrote:

Wolf 11x wrote:
My opponent typically takes whatever he thinks is "cool" and does what he can with it once he hits the tabletop.

This is exactly the type of gamer I am, and I think there are quite a few of us out there. You need to be careful with the constructive criticism, though, as oftentimes these players really do want to try to make the models they chose work, so keep the criticism to what can be done with those particular units. For example, I don't appreciate being told time and time again when I post army lists "You should drop all three of your talos' for ravagers, they're better", that type of crap criticism only irks me. It's likely that your opponent is aware of what the best units and choices are for his army. I think shelving your tournament DE army for your 'fun' GK army is a step in the right direction against this particular opponent.

Agreed completely. I used to post my flashgits army once in awhile mainly for ideas on how to better use them, but I said screw it and stopped because no matter how many times I said " and dont tell me they suck and to drop them" Id ALWAYS get people saying either drop those and go BW spam, or drop those and go Kan Wall. Its annoying hearing to play the only 2 internet builds that do well at tournies. I dont play tournies and sometimes I just want to use my FlashGits, they are my fav unit in the codex hands down. So obviously when I take them, its because they are cool, not because I plan on winning everygame for 10 games strait.

So yea, give him advice and such on what he has, other wise youll just come off as a jerk and he will stop playing with you