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We have the first part of the WD Sisters of Battle Codex and there is a lot of vocal worry. While I agree with a lot of the negativity, we should try to find some of the positives. On this, I will start with some things that I think people will be able to make work.

1) Dominions: With Scout they are now worth taking. If the now make special prices reasonable and similar to the IG codex, they might have a place now. The twin-linked faith act is a possible bonus.
2) Celestians as Troops(Not confirmed, but possible): They would be pretty good as troops and gives us a little more flexibility in the Org chart. They could be pretty useful.
3) Seraphim: There bolt pistols are useful and they no longer are a special weapon delivery system. They could have some use if they drop to 16 points or less.
4) Repentia: What they always should have been in every way. Two attacks base and FNP can make they a good counter-assault unit. With a priest they can do some good damage. If their price drops to less than 16 points, if definately have a place.
5) Retributors: Rendering Heavy bolters will help Sisters in dealing with mech. This with Dominions makes all infantry builds more possible.


Any other things that we can see will now be usable? Now while we don't have the point costs or wargear, that has never stopped Dakka from making guesses before!
Please don't post if you are just going to complain and sulk about the changes. We have a 30+ page thread for that already. Lets focus on the positive.

I almost started a thread similar to this but I realized it was just me complaining. However, I will hit some of these points.

1.) Dominions - They may be worth taking with scout, what I always wanted was to get a vehicle or two close to frag some heavy armor quickly. I like the idea of outflanking them when going second. Outflank at least helps force opponents into small tight flammable bunches.

2.) I have mixed impressions of Dominions as troops. I would have liked to seen something more like Frater Militias in there but I will not get into that. As troops go, I think straight SoB units might be 'strictly' better. I would rather re-roll 1's and regroup under 50% than get +1 S and Fearless. It will really come down to equipment for both. On a positive note I just realized all my SoB's have grenades and pistols on the models, at least they will be WYSIWIG now!

3.) Not sure how useful the pistols are still. They are better now that they can both be fired, but how much better than them being twin linked? Re-roll wounds is good when you are S3 and the other abilities are neat but in a Mech world there is not a lot of room for bodies outside boxes.

4.) I do not think they did enough with Repentia. They are slower than they used to be, they are more durable to shooting (cover and FNP) but I do not think their Faith ability makes up for the lack of control you have over them.

4.) These are actually more interesting to me. My first impression is to say that an Exorcist is strictly better. That said, they MAY have a place in the army if they can take the old style 'Blessed Ammunition' (ignores cover). If you can remove smoke, then there is a possibility 12 Rending S5 shots could wreck transports. Any other damage they can do is a bonus because at the end of the day SoB need ranged firepower...after even more thinking these could be brutal provided they ignore cover I would love to shootup some entrenched HWT and Long Fangs from across the table with these...

Another important one to note is if Penitent Engines take an Elite slot and cost around 40-50 points they will probably be taken. They are more killy (but much slower without the old Rage) and uncontrollable. That said, they provide cheap target saturation and from past experience if they do close they can do some nasty things. I have toyed with these in the past and had them eat some otherwise nasty units. I have also had them die to Krak grenades at I4 before they swing...

Depending on Rending HBs isn't going to go far. You get 8 hits, 1.3 rends on average. That's not that great, but it really depends on the cost.

There is no way seraphim are going to be priced even close to 16 pts. They are 22 now, and GW gave them things they consider to be an "upgrade". They will stay the same or even go up. If they go down, no lower than 20. Just look at the closest thing to them, scourges. 21 pts for a 4+ model with similar other stats.

Rending heavy bolters vs Mech? Lol, even with rending its still crap for dealing with anything other than DE vehicles. Just ask daemons how many attacks with S5 rending it takes to down any armor not AV10... Hint: Its more than what dominions put out.

I don't think there will be much toying with where units slot up, the reason being is there just isn't many units anymore, the FOC choices are starting to look like necrons...

How about faith acts asked upon elsewhere here at the Tactica board.
If you roll bad (D6), you eventually end up with no faith act for a turn.

wuestenfux wrote:How about faith acts asked upon elsewhere here at the Tactica board.
If you roll bad (D6), you eventually end up with no faith act for a turn.

Faith is like the magic phase in fantasy, but in this case you only get 1 dice, while other armies (like BA and GKs) always get two dice. And their lores are better too.

notabot187 wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:How about faith acts asked upon elsewhere here at the Tactica board.
If you roll bad (D6), you eventually end up with no faith act for a turn.

Faith is like the magic phase in fantasy, but in this case you only get 1 dice, while other armies (like BA and GKs) always get two dice. And their lores are better too.

I was just going to ask about this. I do think Sisters hould get at least what is even to GK's faithwise as they are also essentially the inquisition.

In fact, if your faith roll (D6) is 1 or 2, faith acts are not going through, since you have to end up with 5+ faith points getting a bonus of 1, 2 or 3 faith points situationally and subtracting 1 faith point.

Keeping in the spirit of the OP, the positives I've noticed.

i) Conclaves look like they can make a tolerable assault unit, assuming a price point no higher than the equivalent models in C:GK.

ii) Dominion Scouts in an Immolator will be a no-brainer, unless the ratio of specials to models is nerfed (won't know that until next month)

iii) St Celestine's new stats, and the removal of her 'lolnofaith' gamble on death, make her a very, very attractive IC.

The special character Jacobus allows you to reroll the roll for the number of faith points per turn.
He will eventually become a no-brainer in an SoB army.

AdeptSister wrote:

1) Dominions: With Scout they are now worth taking. If the now make special prices reasonable and similar to the IG codex, they might have a place now. The twin-linked faith act is a possible bonus.

3) Seraphim: There bolt pistols are useful and they no longer are a special weapon delivery system. They could have some use if they drop to 16 points or less.

Their competing for the same slot.

4) Repentia: What they always should have been in every way. Two attacks base and FNP can make they a good counter-assault unit. With a priest they can do some good damage. If their price drops to less than 16 points, if definately have a place.

Except they strike last still.

5) Retributors: Rendering Heavy bolters will help Sisters in dealing with mech. This with Dominions makes all infantry builds more possible.

Not really. Depending on what exorcists look like. Counting on rending is a bad proposition.

So, trying to look positively...

Its really Conclaves and Dominions.

Conclaves will give us a nasty CC unit with DCA and Crusaders, same as the GK setup but without Rad grenades and Hammerhand.

Dominions with Scout and possibly twin-linking their weapons should be decent.


So far I haven't seen anything else that hasn't made me cringe.

Creeping Dementia wrote:So, trying to look positively...

Its really Conclaves and Dominions.

Conclaves will give us a nasty CC unit with DCA and Crusaders, same as the GK setup but without Rad grenades and Hammerhand.

Dominions with Scout and possibly twin-linking their weapons should be decent.


So far I haven't seen anything else that hasn't made me cringe.

Both, Conclaves and Dominions, are eventually not troop units.

Do you mean evidently? And I know, trying to stay positive so I stayed away from the troops section...

Creeping Dementia wrote:Do you mean evidently? And I know, trying to stay positive so I stayed away from the troops section...

Yes, in the first place. Maybe a Priest can unlock the Conclave to become troops, like an Inquisitor in the codex GK.

notabot187 wrote:
I don't think there will be much toying with where units slot up, the reason being is there just isn't many units anymore, the FOC choices are starting to look like necrons...

I actually think there is a lot to the speculation that Penitent Engines will be elites. If you look at the ordering of the units in the codex it is...

HQ: Canoness, Command Squad, Confessor/Priests, Battle Concalve
Elite: Repentia, Penitent Engines
Troops: Sisters of Battle, Celestians
Fast Attack: Dominions, Seraphim
Heavy: Retributor, Exorcist
Dedicated Transport: Rhino, Immolator

This is from memory so please correct me if I swapped these (I may have only for the Dominion and Seraphim), but this is the order they appear in the WD.

I agree that counting on rending for Daemons is bad, but the real issue is not counting on rending itself, it is the fact that you need to hit in CC on usually a 6+ and then rend after that. The chance to not rend on 8 hits is about 23%. An Exorcist with 3 missiles, 2 hits has an 11% chance to not glance or pen. However, the key again will be if you get Blessed Ammunition on the Rets. Two damage results will be cover saved about 25% of the time with a 4+.

I am still not thrilled by the overall changes to the Faith system as they stand now, but I am starting to think wargear will have a bigger effect than I originally anticipated.

As for Jacobus, I am really hoping that they implement some additional utility to Imagifiers/Sacred Standard. Ideally, they will generate an additional Faith point each turn or something along those lines. I really wish the Canoness had that kind of utility, the reason to bring her before more than anything else was she had 2 Faith Points...well that and she could become the Flying Suicide Faith Gobbling Nun of Death.

wuestenfux wrote:In fact, if your faith roll (D6) is 1 or 2, faith acts are not going through, since you have to end up with 5+ faith points getting a bonus of 1, 2 or 3 faith points situationally and subtracting 1 faith point.

4+ with a squad leader
3+ if the squad took a casualty

If imiagafiers stick around and do the same thing it would be a reroll on faith checks.

Hmm, might the Hospitallers in Sororitas Command Squads generate a FNP bubble, rather than just buffing the Command Squad? They are described as "allowing a Battle Sister to return to the fray despite grevious injuries" - and you can't have Battle Sisters in the Command Squad, only Celestians.

Mythal wrote:Hmm, might the Hospitallers in Sororitas Command Squads generate a FNP bubble, rather than just buffing the Command Squad? They are described as "allowing a Battle Sister to return to the fray despite grevious injuries" - and you can't have Battle Sisters in the Command Squad, only Celestians.

I had the same thought, but it's a 50/50 90. They might follow the same model as the ba honor guard, or it might be an ig medic/sm apothicary. Personally I hope it is like the ba honor guard, they get 1 per hq and it is afnp bubble. That would turn sob into a tier 1 army, but if we talk about it too much sob players will throw an absolute temper tantrum if they don't get a bubble.

I hope Hospitallers work like that. I also think Retributors may be an option as we are not sure if the Exorcist launcher will be the same.

I think it would be funny if all our Elite section was uncontrollable.

I am willing to bet retribiturs cost=same cost as sisters and a squad leader, hb cost 5, and mm cost 10.

Doubt exorcists will stay the same.

calypso2ts wrote:Another important one to note is if Penitent Engines take an Elite slot and cost around 40-50 points they will probably be taken. They are more killy (but much slower without the old Rage) and uncontrollable. That said, they provide cheap target saturation and from past experience if they do close they can do some nasty things. I have toyed with these in the past and had them eat some otherwise nasty units. I have also had them die to Krak grenades at I4 before they swing...

Another thing to think about is that they get a pair of heavy flamers now, not normal flamers. Str5 is a big deal.

schadenfreude wrote:I had the same thought, but it's a 50/50 90. They might follow the same model as the ba honor guard, or it might be an ig medic/sm apothicary. Personally I hope it is like the ba honor guard, they get 1 per hq and it is afnp bubble. That would turn sob into a tier 1 army, but if we talk about it too much sob players will throw an absolute temper tantrum if they don't get a bubble.

Aw, we aren't that bad. But I agree that it'd definitely be a cool fringe benefit. Two blobs of 20 sisters, with a Relentless command squad toting multi-meltas and granting FNP stood between them, would certainly be a decent investment of 5-600 points.

schadenfreude wrote:Doubt exorcists will stay the same.

Well, if they lose AP1, they stop being worth fielding and Sisters of Battle will become a total-infantry force. I think there's going to be some 'random' element to their firing, though - the new fluff text includes "The Exorcist missiles fired by these revered vehicles are capable of splitting open enemy battle tanks or destroying entire squads of heavy infantry in one punishing salvo, provided, of course, the Exorcist's temperamental machine spirit does not malfunction". Now, whether that means we're still dealing with d6, or a fixed number of shots but any natural 1s rolled to hit negate the salvo, or whatever, we won't know until next month. It's definitely odd they didn't include the Exorcist Missile Launcher in the unit description, they tend to with totally unique equipment.

Mythal wrote: It's definitely odd they didn't include the Exorcist Missile Launcher in the unit description, they tend to with totally unique equipment.

Yeah they knew that was the piece people really wanted to find out about, so of course they "happened" to put it in the wargear section. Gits

Alright...We now know the point costs....*sigh*

Any idea on how to make the army work without Immolator Spam?

Seraphim are awesome again (near Chapter Approved Levels of greatness), but Battle Sisters, will be hard to use...

Does anybody think a large mob of Battle Sisters with a multi-melta will work?

I just don't know how we will survive an assault or do enough damage with Troops in the rapid fire range...

Celestine + FA spam. The question is which? Seraphim at 150? 190-210 with special weapons? Dominions in Rhinos or 5 woman units in Immolators?

Celestians have little point beyond trying to stack a Cannoness and Uriah for a melee combo, but it will need two acts of faith and two ICs for a whole lot of S4 I4 reroll hit ordinary attacks.

6 woman Ret squads with HBs cost 100. If the scouting Dominions or Seraphim can manage all the anti-tank work, they might be good. I doubt MM Rets have a point at all. 4 heavy flamer Rets is godawful expensive.

The command squad in a Rhino with 2 MMs could be worthwhile.

As soon as anything gets charged by a unit more dangerous than ordinary guardsmen, just write it off. It's dead and gone. We'll have to do our damage before then. I suspect 6 tacs will beat a 10 woman SoB squad, although it will take a while.

AdeptSister wrote:Alright...We now know the point costs....*sigh*

Any idea on how to make the army work without Immolator Spam?

Seraphim are awesome again (near Chapter Approved Levels of greatness), but Battle Sisters, will be hard to use...

Does anybody think a large mob of Battle Sisters with a multi-melta will work?

I just don't know how we will survive an assault or do enough damage with Troops in the rapid fire range...

IMO Immo Spam is dead, at least the way it used to work. Not only do Immolators not get better/cheaper, they managed to get worse and still cost noticably more than SM varient Razorbacks. Dominion Immolators will likely be the only ones used, Multi-melta varients, time to start ripping turrets apart.
I'm not sure about Seraphim yet, Dominions have been a much better option so far. Yes Seraphim have more killing ability, but they've lost so much of their utility and survivability. I usually don't need fragile flying close range shooters (could really use a tarpit...), scouting rhinos and meltas usually fill a better role.

Elites just aren't good at all...
No choice in Troops
Heavys are still Exorcists. Rets are cheap, but we really don't need Heavy Bolters in the army, plenty of options we could have used, but HBs aren't one of them. IMO Rets will not be seen to be a competitive choice.



In the games I've gotten in so far, the biggest problems I've run into is the staying power of the army is completely gone. Used to be able to control the battlefield a little with Seraphim and BSS squads and the Book of St. Lucius. Now all squads are toast and run in combat, meaning we have to be sure everything is dead in our shooting phase to prevent any assaults. Kinda like Tau, except without all that long range fire support.

Another huge difference I'm noticing, is the point level you play at is very important. 1000-1500 pt games are fine, you generally have enough Faith, and you have enough points to fill out the good slots (Fast, HQ). Once I get past 1500pts though I've been running into huge scaling problems. 2000 is tough, 2500 seems near impossible, just not enough Faith, not enough good slots. Kinda sucks as most (~95%) of games played in my area are 2000 or 2500pts.

It's still early, but I'm getting the feeling that I'll be dropping most of my flamers. With marines being opponent #1, I need to be able to break tanks and get through 3+ and 2+ armor. Exorcist shots and meltas are the only options out there, and without Divine Guidance, flamers just haven't been as easy a choice to make. It'll make me vulnerable to Orks, DE, and maybe Nids, but if I have tons of trouble building an all-comers list, then I'll gear for marines first.

I think that Immo spam is even more possible now, just tougher to pull off. You can throw out 17 Immos since every force org spot has them. Not that that would be a good army, just saying.

HQ - Uriah with BC in Immo/Rhino, Canoness with CCS in Immo
Elite - Celestians - Immo x3
Troops - Walking Sisters with Immo x6
FA - Dominions in Immo x3
Heavy - Exorcists x3
That's a lot of hulls. You can cut and choose to drop points, but wall of HF or MM Immos with Walking Sisters to take objectives. Half of the Immos have double melta in them. Not great, but it is something.

I'm still waiting for my 2nd half before I get too serious about lists though.


Are laud hailers available on vehicles? That would seem to be a good way to increase faith at higher points values.

Also, are Simul Imps roll two or reroll? Roll two would be awesome combo with Laud Hailers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and in all seriousness, my real list will probably be...

HQ - Celestine and Uriah with Battle Conclave (Rhino)
Elites - Celestians with Meltas in Immos (1 or 2)
Troops - 3 BSS in Immos or Rhinos (Melta, Combi Melta)
FA - Seraphim with stuff x2
Dominion Squad in Immo
Heavy - Exorcists x3

I'll have to play with costs and the army to see where I ultimately go.

Increase faith? You need to roll (more) 6s don't you? Chances are good you won't get a single Laud Hailer effect during any particular turn. You average 4.5 with Uriah, so you'll get a free faith point 4 or 5 turns out of the game if every single act is near a vehicle/command.

I wouldn't bother. Averaging 4 acts is enough to feed 3 FA units, and unless you are fielding Rets why do you need more? Only the command squad has an Act that's really good, and they are rumored to be 115 base. If you want Multimeltas take two Immolators instead.

notabot187 wrote:There is no way seraphim are going to be priced even close to 16 pts.

They're actually 15 points now. I have it in front of me.

schadenfreude wrote:I am willing to bet retribiturs cost=same cost as sisters and a squad leader, hb cost 5, and mm cost 10.

Doubt exorcists will stay the same.

You're correct on Retributers.

Exorcists are still the same (135).