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Celestine can hide behind a Sisters of Battle rhino with the added piece on top that makes it a little taller. Using my laser sight, on a perfectly level surface, all anyone can see is the tips of her cape. However, given a few inches elevation, she's visible.

The issue with Celestine is that Jacobus with a battle conclave is a no-brainer and she isn't. She is great, but I'd generally rather have more rhino hulls in my army than a single close combat character, immortal and uber strong or not. I think Celestine would be best with a squad of Seraphim to support her, but that poses the additional problem of Seraphim taking up too many points for their special pistols and taking up a Dominion slot.

The Grog wrote:

You have 3 transports, which makes them highly likely to get exactly one turn of life. But more importantly, you have no replies to fast moving close combat troops. Dark Eldar, 'nids, Assault Marines, anything with a 12" move, charge, or assault vehicle. They will sweep right past your engagement range, assault you, and there is little you can do but spread out (which denies units supporting each other) or pray you break on their turn. And it's not that hard to play contact games to prevent that.

I'd also field Seraphim instead of Dominions.

Everything you've said is tailored to your opinion. The list I made wasn't meant to be perfectly balanced I didn't take the time to pour though it to make sure it was golden. It was meant to just make my point about footslogging, you can pick though it all you want and say X unit will own it, but I still think it still looks decent on paper. Just to let you know 3 transports that outflank will always have more than one turn of life, that's the exact pessimistic attitude we don't need and trying to get away from in this thread. "OMG MIGHT AS WELL NOT EVEN PLAY IT IT'S JUST GUNNA DIE FIRST TURN LAWLS."

If my opponent could always kill 3 Rhinos a turn, I'd lose every game.

How effective would a sororitas command squad be with multimeltas or heavy bolters? I can see them running in a transport with a bunch of immolators using Endless crusade to activate their heavy weapons on the move and being pretty effective.

Kreedos wrote:

paintedpotato wrote:
Anyone going to give their Canoness 2 eviscerators for the extra attack? I am tempted, because that would look %^#%@ sick!

Why yes it would, and it is tempting if you ever have 25 extra points in the list. I had a double bladed eviserator at one point on my jump pack cannoness, that would have worked now, damn! =)

So 5 S6 power weapon attacks on the charge that each gain +1d6 pen against vehicles. If you put her with Jacobus and some Death Cultists you could pump up the cultist's initiative to 7 with her faith power. Pretty sexy.

I suppose that ecclesiarchy priests can dual wield eviscerators also, though that would get pricey. Dual wielding priests would be 4 S6 attcks on the charge for 95p each.

Either the dual-wield cannoness or the priests could run with the celestians and get S7...


[edit] Actually even better Seraphim Superiors can dual wield eviscerators which would be the best choice since she couldnt be singled out by walkers AND can reroll to wound. [/edit]

Cheddah wrote:

[edit] Actually even better Seraphim Superiors can dual wield eviscerators which would be the best choice since she couldnt be singled out by walkers AND can reroll to wound. [/edit]

Unfortunately they can only reroll to wound in shooting. =(

Cheddah wrote:How effective would a sororitas command squad be with multimeltas or heavy bolters? I can see them running in a transport with a bunch of immolators using Endless crusade to activate their heavy weapons on the move and being pretty effective.

Kreedos wrote:

paintedpotato wrote:
Anyone going to give their Canoness 2 eviscerators for the extra attack? I am tempted, because that would look %^#%@ sick!

Why yes it would, and it is tempting if you ever have 25 extra points in the list. I had a double bladed eviserator at one point on my jump pack cannoness, that would have worked now, damn! =)

If you put her with Jacobus and some Death Cultists you could pump up the cultist's initiative to 7 with her faith power. Pretty sexy.

Conclaves don't benefit from AoF, so no initiative 7 nor rerolls on the DCA. The Priest/Confessors would benefit though. (Yay...?)

D'oh my bad...

I went through this with my blood angels WD dex years back, may the cheesewheel turn for all SoB players as it did for us BA players.

I still can't find a happy balance on Crusaders to DCA; using 2 or 3 at the moment.

Gosh darn I hate GK/BA's and stormshields

Wait for a real release codex. That's the real way forward. If you already have a sister's army, then it's all good, go ahead and use this toilet paper codex. But if you're thinking of starting, wait for the real thing. You're gonna be sorry if you invest tons of money into an army that's going to be completely different when they get redone.

scuddman wrote:Wait for a real release codex. That's the real way forward. If you already have a sister's army, then it's all good, go ahead and use this toilet paper codex. But if you're thinking of starting, wait for the real thing. You're gonna be sorry if you invest tons of money into an army that's going to be completely different when they get redone.

That is reasonable. I just hoping someone can make this WD work and maybe win or be in the top 5 of a major tournament.

I guess the reason I take this so personally is that the free Codex Approved Sisters of Battle List got me into 40k. I loved the fluff of warrior nuns fighting for the one true emperor. And it being free made it easy for me to join my friends and build an army. The problems with the new WD codex + the ridiculousness of price and lack of box troop sets makes it impossible for someone to have the same experience...

Rant over...

So is foot sister list truly dead without the Book of St. Lucius?

It really depends on your matchup and the point size. 2500 point hard boyz? Forget it

1000 point small rogue trader? Very viable depending on if you get lucky on matchups.

I'm tossing around a few ideas but I think I can make a downright nasty list at 2k w/90 infantry and 9 vehicle hulls. I'll probably throw it up in the next week or so.

The sisters can do a few things that other imperial armies cannot do -- which is what I would leverage when creating lists.

Special Weapons
A squad of 5 Dominions or Celestians can carry 2 special weapons in a 5 woman squad. No other imperials (GK, BA, C:SM, BT, SW, DA) can do this. If utilizing rhinos to protect them, these squads can deliver quite the anti-armor punch. As the chart below shows a MG, even at a 12" range has a greater chance of destroying AV 13 and lower than a LC does. Each rhino has a 18-26" threat range with those MGs (depending if the sisters disembark).

TL MG
AV 10 - 32.34%
AV 11 - 24.74%
AV 12 - 17.09%
AV 13 - 9.83%
AV 14 - 2.49%

TL LC
AV 10 - 24.79%
AV 11 - 19.61%
AV 12 - 15.13%
AV 13 - 9.90%
AV 14 - 5.01%
Batlte sisters can also bring 2 special weapons in a 10 woman squad, and can be utilized for the same purpose. This gives every squad the ability to deliver strong anti-tank power.

Sister Blobs
20 sisters sitting on an objective can be very hard to move. They would need to be assaulted off the objective, but doing so means the enemy must close within the MG tank wall. While some units can fly over the wall, or deep strike past it, the sisters should be able to counter that pretty well. 16 MG shots can take down 10 BA pretty easily, or 3 exorcists should be able to take down a deep striking dread pretty quickly.
While I would not suggest blobbing up your entire army, one blob can be utilized this way. Their transport could also then go to a repentia squad.

Immolators with MMs
As the chart shows above, an immolator with a TL MM is more effective than an razorback with a TL LC on most armor (and all armor within 12") The immolator costs 5 more points than the razorback and has a 6+ Shield of Faith save. The only drawback with these immolators is they prevent you from shooting the dual MG from the hatch.

Exorcists
STR 8 with AP1 shots are better than STR 9 AP 2 shots vs most armor. The exorcist fires 3.5 of those shots per turn and costs 15 more points than a AC/LC preadator. That's a good bargain for what the tank delivers. These can be utilized to take down enemy medium armor (such as stormravens) with great effect.

Penitent Engine Spam
I've been tossing the idea of 9 penitent engines running behind a wall of rhinos armed with MGs. The MG spam would crack transports and armor, then allow the engines to reap destruction. As each engine would be obscured behind the rhinos, it would be hard to destroy before they were on you.
I think this army needs a few proxy games to test out, but I think it will be very effective. It's biggest challenge will be an enemy that can move away very quickly (eldar, dark eldar, etc)

Jacobs Battle Conclave
Jacobs leading 5 death cult assassins and 4 crusaders is just a mean assault force. Every model rerolls missed to-hits on the turn they assault, they are stubborn, they have +1 attack and FNP. The assassins will have 25 STR 4 PW attacks hitting on I6, and the squad has four 3++ saves it can utilize to absorb incoming PW attacks.
For the cost, its an extremely effective assault unit. I think it edges over Repentia due to the speed and volume of the attacks.

@labmouse42: Thanks for the actual analysis! It is refreshing.

labmouse42 wrote:The sisters can do a few things that other imperial armies cannot do -- which is what I would leverage when creating lists.

Special Weapons
A squad of 5 Dominions or Celestians can carry 2 special weapons in a 5 woman squad. No other imperials (GK, BA, C:SM, BT, SW, DA) can do this.

You forgot IG Storm Troopers, IG Company and Platoon Command Squads, SM/BA Sternguard, SM/BA Command Squads, GK Paladins, GK Purifiers, GK Warrior Acolytes and GK Purgation Squads. Don't have SW, BT or DA to hand where I am at the minute, so can't check those. Unless you're being gender-specific when you say "5 woman", in which case you're right

That said, I largely agree with the idea that special weapon spam with minimal squad size is probably the best way to go - certainly, all of the lists I've seen coming up since the new Codex hit have used that as their guiding principle. I'm a bit more fluffy when I build forces, so I'd take a 10-sister Seraphim squad, for example, rather than min-maxing them for 4 melta shots from 5 models (something that Blood Angels can manage with Troops choices, if they take Dante).

pretre wrote:@labmouse42: Thanks for the actual analysis! It is refreshing.

Anytime. I found a few of the critiques of the codex really unfounded and wanted to give a view of the strengths. Here are the critics that make me facepalm.
http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2011/08/what-to-do-about-maria-working-with-new.html

Celestians and not Grey Hunter
Grey Hunters are the staple of the SW codex. Their made to be a great buy to encourage people to play them, in a similar way that the ork boy is a great buy. Comparing every choice to them is setting an unrealistic standard for a unit.

Its better to compare them to battle sisters. For 3 more points a model, they have an extra attack, an extra WS, and a good power that can be utilized to bring them close to on par with marines. The real advantage they get in the ability to field 2 special weapons in 5 sisters, making the cost of the dual MG rhino 45 points less.

Immolators Suck!!!111!!
An immolator costs the same as a razorback with a TL HF in the C:SM and SW codex. GKs cost 5 more, but have fortitude, and BA can get them for insanely cheap.
Overall, they seem to be in line with the other equilivant imperial tanks. The HB version is not worth it IMHO, as even the ability to re-roll wounds only gives it a 55% of wounding T6. However, the MM and HF versions are decent.
The only drawback I really see with the immolator is that the sister squads do very well with 2 MGs per squad, its just a natural fit for the rhino.

labmouse42 wrote:Immolators Suck!!!111!!
An immolator costs the same as a razorback with a TL HF in the C:SM and SW codex. GKs cost 5 more, but have fortitude, and BA can get them for insanely cheap.
Overall, they seem to be in line with the other equilivant imperial tanks. The HB version is not worth it IMHO, as even the ability to re-roll wounds only gives it a 55% of wounding T6. However, the MM and HF versions are decent.
The only drawback I really see with the immolator is that the sister squads do very well with 2 MGs per squad, its just a natural fit for the rhino.

Agreed - I still love the Immolator, no matter what anyone says. I would say that if someone were running a small Conclave, then I could see a place for the HB Immolator as their DT - if you're using them as counter-assault, the HB is of more use over the course of the battle than the T-L HF, but I'd think that'd be down to personal preference. Still, it's nice to see someone being positive about the good aspects of the Codex, at least!

I actually just wrote what I consider a hilarious list on a local board based around TLMM Immos (which are pretty awesome). It's funny because it utilizes Repentia instead of the standard 2 melta as your forward core.

Celestine
Uriah Bomb (8 Henchmen) in Rhino
Sister Squad (10 BS, Melta/HF, Chainsword) in TLMM Immo
Sister Squad (10 BS, Melta/HF, Chainsword) in TLMM Immo
Sister Squad (10 BS, Melta/HF, Chainsword) in TLMM Immo
Dominions (5 Dom, Flamer x2, CombiM, Chainsword) in TLMM Immo
Dominions (5 Dom, Flamer x2, CombiM, Chainsword) in TLMM Immo
Dominions (5 Dom, Flamer x2, CombiM, Chainsword) in TLMM Immo
Repentia x5
Repentia x5
Repentia x5
Priests (Elite) x3

Priests attach to Repentia and go into Sister Immos which follow behind Dominion Immos. Uriah Bomb is countercharge and Celestine is a big ol' distraction. 1995 points. Sisters Squads walk up behind.

You popped my Immo? Oh noes! My fearless girls will just charge out of it and eat your face.


Scale to 2500?
Add three Exorcists
Add 5 Sisters to One Squad
Add 2 Sisters to another squad
Add 1 Henchman to the Bomb.

pretre wrote:I actually just wrote what I consider a hilarious list on a local board based around TLMM Immos (which are pretty awesome). It's funny because it utilizes Repentia instead of the standard 2 melta as your forward core.

Celestine
Uriah Bomb (8 Henchmen) in Rhino
Sister Squad (10 BS, Melta/HF, Chainsword) in TLMM Immo
Sister Squad (10 BS, Melta/HF, Chainsword) in TLMM Immo
Sister Squad (10 BS, Melta/HF, Chainsword) in TLMM Immo
Dominions (5 Dom, Flamer x2, CombiM, Chainsword) in TLMM Immo
Dominions (5 Dom, Flamer x2, CombiM, Chainsword) in TLMM Immo
Dominions (5 Dom, Flamer x2, CombiM, Chainsword) in TLMM Immo
Repentia x5
Repentia x5
Repentia x5
Priests (Elite) x3

Priests attach to Repentia and go into Sister Immos which follow behind Dominion Immos. Uriah Bomb is countercharge and Celestine is a big ol' distraction. 1995 points. Sisters Squads walk up behind.

You popped my Immo? Oh noes! My fearless girls will just charge out of it and eat your face.


Scale to 2500?
Add three Exorcists
Add 5 Sisters to One Squad
Add 2 Sisters to another squad
Add 1 Henchman to the Bomb.

Ah, funny indeed !

Will give something like this a try in one of my campaign game :p

Nub question time!

I see a lot of people using Uriah with things like DCAs and other heavy hitters. I'm kind of afraid of getting Uriah out too far on his own since his rolls are so important (And his statline is meh despite his bonuses). What are preferred tactics for running Uriah and his bomb squad?

Kyrinov, how useful? In terms of getting stuck in he's better than Uriah (and MUCH better than a vanilla priest) but at his point level and role its tempting to just take Celestine. I just can't find an assault squad worthy of him.

In what situations are Seraphim pistols worth it?

I consider Kyrinov absolutely worthless; other than the fearless bubble Celestine does everything I could want from him better. Laud Hailer is just bad, and simulacrum I've yet to be concerned about. Jacobus gives me a chance for more faith which lets me just attempt again on units~

+1 attack and FNP is going to give me more due to DCA bomb. I find I just keep him in a rhino around my units to deal with deep strike and close combat. Counter charge they are beautiful. At the same time if you have lots of scouts you can usually dart that rhino up for free along one side of the board.

Seraphim pistols are very expensive but double shot is going to get their points back. The hand flamers, although weaker in strength, can re-roll wounds with an AoF. Dropping 4 twin-linked s3 templates is actually very effective. And even when I've lost one of my inferno pistol girls before getting into range, I still get two shots on the inferno and that's never not been enough, even vs multi wound termis, so far.

I find with double scout melta doms, seraphim with flamers and celestine around (careful of non-fearless running off the board) are going to find units they can unload on in the 5 armies I've been against. Eviscerator gives you some tank chase still if you want; though I've not been totally sold on it. Either way you have a screen in the scout rhinos getting eaten, and your troop rhinos moving up, and shots being used against the exorcists.

Inferno pistols I've always found make my points, it just means the seraphim provide extra control on the map; considerably more if there is some good solid terrain near mid field, and sometimes my Uriah chases behind them if the other team have a great jump assault unit

If

I do not understand why Laud Hailer can't be chosen on the vehicles... We have plenty bits to do it after all...
I think this effect can be useful but with only very little laud hailer on an army, it will lack regularity. The price is another problem. Too bad, it does not give stubborn bubble at it was said in one or another post about the first rumors...

I am not sure about the utility to pay 20pts for the simulacrum neither... Especially because faith does not seem to be a strategy pilar of new lists... more like a small sprinkling of nice advantages.

I can't see how to include Kyrinov efficiently... If his fearless bubble was 12", I would go for him in a fun horde infantry list... without thinking it can really be competitive anyway.

@Grenat:
The no Laud Hailer on Vehicles is silly. BUT it allows you to use those cool bits on whatever vehicle you want now.

Simulacrum is not really worth it for 20 points. Wasn't in the old book, still isn't now.

Kyrinov can be used very effectively to maintain a fearless bubble amongst models currently guarding the objective on your miniature shelf.

Petrojsko wrote:I see a lot of people using Uriah with things like DCAs and other heavy hitters. I'm kind of afraid of getting Uriah out too far on his own since his rolls are so important (And his statline is meh despite his bonuses). What are preferred tactics for running Uriah and his bomb squad?

The trick lies in correct placement of your models when you assault. Read p49 of the BRB on how ICs assault.

So what you want to do is deploy Uriah behind the Jacoubs posse' when you leave the transport. As you assault, make sure that any enemy IC is engaged by your posse' so he cannot react to the assault all over Uriah's ass. On the first turn, you can even keep Uriah out of the assault if you have engaged all the enemy models and Uriah cannot reach any. (though he will have to pile-in if the assault goes more than 1 turn). When you do pile-in, make sure he is only facing one enemy model so the number of counter-attacks on him will be minimal.

Given the hitting power of your Jacoubs posse' you should be able to beat through your target in 1 or 2 turns of battle.

Exactly what labmouse42 said. IC protection is an art.

pretre wrote:Kyrinov can be used very effectively to maintain a fearless bubble amongst models currently guarding the objective on your miniature shelf.

+1 because that's exactly what my mini of him from years ago is doing right now.

But yeah, another agreement to making sure Uriah is leading from the rear! It's a shame you can't crusader absorb his hits.

Because I'm still unsure as to 2 or 3 Crusaders mind you, what do others include in their unit loadout for Uriah bomb?

I'm going to try out 3 Crusaders, 5 DCA and Uriah. I've contemplated an Arco or two for Multiassaults against vehicles.

Also, Kyrinov makes a great CCS for my Guard Army.

Grenat wrote:I can't see how to include Kyrinov efficiently... If his fearless bubble was 12", I would go for him in a fun horde infantry list... without thinking it can really be competitive anyway.

sssssssssssssssssssssss.........ssssssssssssssssssssssssss
...................................s......s.......................................
SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS K SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
...................................s......s.......................................
sssssssssssssssssssssss.........ssssssssssssssssssssssssss

The S's are sister squads of 20 sisters each. I seperated them as big S's and little S's to help make it easier to seperate them. The K is Kyrinov.
Its the same tactic that orks use for Kustom FF's.

If you want to go with more of a 'battleplan amoeba' strategy, then instead of making lines of sisters, you just make them blobs. So long as part of them are within 6" of your IC, your fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pretre wrote:I'm going to try out 3 Crusaders, 5 DCA and Uriah.

That's what I was thinking as well. Add 1 flail for the 5 STR 5 attacks so you can hit vehicles, and you have a dead 'ard assault unit for under 200 points.

I'm not saying that it will beat 10 TH/SS termies with Shrike, or an Vect and a squad of Incubi, but it will be able to handle most assault squads pretty well.

stupid TH/SS really wreck my day now we dont have 3++

I can't ever see me needing arco's mind you, with the role they play I just don't see AV being a problem, I'd rather keep my power weapons in there.

Less said about S5 or 4 Arcos the better of course ;3 Gosh darn do I miss blessed weapons; Celestine without Hit n Run means she has to accept ressurection to get out of tar too

Actually, against the incubi, you're probably okay. TH/SS you might even be okay.

5 * 5 I6, S4, WS5 attacks on the charge. 25 attacks / 16.67 with reroll on charge = 22.22 hits.

11.11 Wounds. 3.69 dead SS Terms on the Charge at I6.

Then Crusaders = 9 Attacks. 8 Hits. 2.66 wounds. 0.888 Dead.

4.58 Dead by I3, not counting Jacobus. That's a pretty messed up TH/SS squad.

Edit: So we'll say a 10 man squad (crazy, I know). 6 Swing back. 12 Attacks. 6 Hits. 5 Wounds. Assign 3 to Crusaders. 1 Dead. Assign 2 to DCA. 1.333 dead.

That's net win for the Bomb. If it is a combat squad, then they're dead.