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A couple of questions for those in the know:

Are eviscerators still overpriced?

How much are Repentia?

If they are cheap, I can try foot by flooding them.

Eviscerators are very competitively priced given that you cannot take them on BSS squads anymore (so they cost 0 yay!).

I keep looking at this book to find something that is playable at around 1850 and there just are not enough good options in the book (or the good ones are in the same slot).

Canoness sucks - think of her like the priest from the old codex that you needed to unlock PE's and Arcos but now she unlocks a mediocre command squad.

No reason not to take a Confessor at all when you can take a named preacher for so cheap.

Not to be all negative, what is good? I only took 2 Exorcists before so I guess I can take some Rets now. I am trying my old list with 4 BSS (3x tri flame-1x dual melta) and moving my Celestians to be Dominions (ohh yeah btw Celestians suck, why would I pay grey hunter prices for these pieces of trash?).

Not sure how to use the Immolators which took a nerf bat so hard it is a joke. They are strictly worse than any SM Razorback. I really have a problem putting any points into upgrades on an AV 11 shell.

Maybe it would be worth spaming them like before with some additional Immy's on troops, but that leaves those troops out of the action. Plus a 6" max move and shoot on an Immolator means it has to end your turn 12" from an enemy, so it is going to eat a melta shot...

Edit: Repentia are normal SM prices, they suffer from the same problem all rage units do...they cannot be controlled so they basically stink

Edit 2: I do like the design philosophy of the new Penitent Engines. "Old penitents are too fragile for their cost, and compete with the only range anti tank in the codex." --"Okay so what if we gave them a second Heavy Flamer and a chance to generate extra attacks but otherwise left them unchanged...ohh but we want to slow them down so they lose their extra d6 movement plus we'll leave them in as heavy support but make Retributors a very cost effective competitive choice." --"Okay so you ran out of PE models huh?"

Celestine does seem to be interesting, any ideas how to use her though? In my experience runing Seraphim just provides targets for anything that cannot glance a Rhino, but she needs an escort. I thoguht maybe in a foot sisters list she can provide that asault element by breaking off from the squad to charge a nearby enemy and pin them down?

pretre wrote:I think that Immo spam is even more possible now, just tougher to pull off. You can throw out 17 Immos since every force org spot has them. Not that that would be a good army, just saying.

HQ - Uriah with BC in Immo/Rhino, Canoness with CCS in Immo
Elite - Celestians - Immo x3
Troops - Walking Sisters with Immo x6
FA - Dominions in Immo x3
Heavy - Exorcists x3
That's a lot of hulls. You can cut and choose to drop points, but wall of HF or MM Immos with Walking Sisters to take objectives. Half of the Immos have double melta in them. Not great, but it is something.

I'm still waiting for my 2nd half before I get too serious about lists though.


Are laud hailers available on vehicles? That would seem to be a good way to increase faith at higher points values.

Also, are Simul Imps roll two or reroll? Roll two would be awesome combo with Laud Hailers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and in all seriousness, my real list will probably be...

HQ - Celestine and Uriah with Battle Conclave (Rhino)
Elites - Celestians with Meltas in Immos (1 or 2)
Troops - 3 BSS in Immos or Rhinos (Melta, Combi Melta)
FA - Seraphim with stuff x2
Dominion Squad in Immo
Heavy - Exorcists x3

I'll have to play with costs and the army to see where I ultimately go.

Lol, when I said Immy spam is dead, its more from a competitive perspective...

Rhinos are deffinately the better choice now... maybe. They don't have any firepoints listed, but seeing as they basically identical to the SM ones, I'm going to be playing them as 2 firepoints until a FAQ/Errata comes out. Immos really are only useable IMO on Dominions due to Scout. Still, 80 pts for a MM Immy is stretching it, and thats without EA. I might convert most my Immy turrets to Heavy Bolters so I can use them in my GK army too (the color schemes are close enough I guess).

No, no Laud Hailers on vehicles, only on the Dialogus. That means a max 2 per army, and you'll be giving up Celestine and Jacobus.

Simulacrums are a reroll, but have nothing to do with a Laud Hailer anyway. The extra faith point generated is based on a roll immediately after the faith test, not on the roll itself. Doesn't have the reliablity or even the potential to make up for point level scaling.

Ya Seraphim are cheap, but the upgraded pistols are so damn expensive... I'm just not sure about them. Celestine is the shining gem of this new 'book', the only real unit where you don't have to really stretch to find potential.

The first half of the codex clearly states that two models may fire from the hatch of a Rhino.

Also, Penitent Engines in no way shape or form are a squadron any more, each penitent acts Independantly even if bought in groups of 3. 9 independant penitent engines behind a Rhino spam wall, that sounds somewhat amazing.

I included this in the army list thread I made but I figured it was relevant here.

Here's my 2k Uriah Jacobs DCA list.

HQ

Uriah Jacobs - 90

DCA x 6 Crusader x3 - 171
Rhino
Searchlight

Troops

Sister of Battle x 10 - 196
Heavy Flamer, Flamer, Combi Flamer
Rhino
Searchlight

Sister of Battle x 10 - 196
Heavy Flamer, Flamer, Combi Flamer
Rhino
Searchlight

Sister of Battle x 10 - 201
Heavy Flamer, Melta Gun, Combi Melta
Rhino
Searchlight

Sister of Battle x 10 - 201
Heavy Flamer, Melta Gun, Combi Melta
Rhino
Searchlight

Fast

Dominion x 5 - 175
Melta Gun x 2, Combi Melta
Immolator
TL MM

Dominion x 5 - 175
Melta Gun x 2, Combi Melta
Immolator
TL MM

Dominion x 5 - 175
Melta Gun x 2, Combi Melta
Immolator
TL MM

Heavy

Exorcist - 135

Exorcist - 135

Exorcist - 135

2000 pts.

Kreedos wrote:Also, Penitent Engines in no way shape or form are a squadron any more, each penitent acts Independantly even if bought in groups of 3. 9 independant penitent engines behind a Rhino spam wall, that sounds somewhat amazing.

As neat as that might seem, I think you are stretching the wording a bit. Also, compared to how the other unit entries are listed, it seems like you can only make a unit of 1 or 3, just not 2, as the entry is missing the words "up to".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

calypso2ts wrote:Celestine does seem to be interesting, any ideas how to use her though? In my experience runing Seraphim just provides targets for anything that cannot glance a Rhino, but she needs an escort. I thoguht maybe in a foot sisters list she can provide that asault element by breaking off from the squad to charge a nearby enemy and pin them down?

I intend to use her to draw fire away from models that will stay down if killed. When, not if, she kicks the bucket, she will essentially be this kind of 18 mine filed or booby trap... Yes, I think I like that, a booby trap. Now I can quote Admiral Ackbar every time she resurrects and charges someone.

I don't think I would deep strike her nor join her to a unit. If you mishaps off, she isn't technically killed on the table is she? And if she joins a unit of seraphim, she is liable to break off the table without being able to regroup. She may qualify as being "removed as a casualty" if she walks/floats off the board edge but that will be after a few turns of fall back move and at the table edge of your own deployment zone. So for me, the debate of whether or not she is an IC is kind of irrelevant.

Good to hear about the Rhino firepoints, a friend hasn't returned my copy of the first set yet .

Kreedos wrote:

Also, Penitent Engines in no way shape or form are a squadron any more, each penitent acts Independantly even if bought in groups of 3. 9 independant penitent engines behind a Rhino spam wall, that sounds somewhat amazing.

Just like you can include up to 5 additional Retributors, but they act independently, um no. Thats just not going to fly. But if you do find someone that buys into that, let them know I have some bargain oceanfront property in Iowa I'd love to sell them.

Having 9 individual units of them running around would actually be bad for them anyway, its a KP nightmare. The fact that they operate independently is the reason I don't bring Tau Sniper Drone teams. If the point cost, rules, and co$t weren't already making Penitent engines a laughable choice as they are, then having them count for an armys worth of KPs would.

I working on tweeking my army...But really really cannot understand why the Canoness does not come with a Rosarius Standard?!?!? So many Imperials HQ come with a Invulerable standard...Plus she is more expensive? Sorry....

But, We will make it work.

Any ideas on how to make a Canoness worthwhile?

Celestians, Uriah, Cannoness. S4 I4 A4 with rerolls on the charge. The only way to make the Cannoness and Celestians worthwhile is to stack acts + Uriah's banner.

Of these the Cannoness may be the most expendable piece, as it cost you only +1 I, but you also lose one of the squad's two power weapon/evis slots.

AdeptSister wrote:I working on tweeking my army...But really really cannot understand why the Canoness does not come with a Rosarius Standard?!?!? So many Imperials HQ come with a Invulerable standard...Plus she is more expensive? Sorry....

But, We will make it work.

Any ideas on how to make a Canoness worthwhile?

I see her as a means to unlock a command squad. The thing is, I would still just put her in a blob squad or repentia to take advantage of her stubborn rule. Probably equip her with just and eviscerator and take advantage of 'Spirit of the Martyr'. The repentia can also benefit from her Preferred Enemy boost before they go down. You will need to micromanage your assaults and pile in moves so that you don't put her next to an instant death model. The other side of that coin IS to put her next to the instant death model so that at least they will only kill her and her 3 attacks rather than X number of repentia who have plenty more. While in the repentia squad, she can take a few bolter type rounds to the face with her extra wounds and armor save. You will lose fleet but, if the situation calls for it, you can just have her leave the squad.

edit: typo

Creeping Dementia wrote:Good to hear about the Rhino firepoints, a friend hasn't returned my copy of the first set yet .

Kreedos wrote:

Also, Penitent Engines in no way shape or form are a squadron any more, each penitent acts Independantly even if bought in groups of 3. 9 independant penitent engines behind a Rhino spam wall, that sounds somewhat amazing.

Just like you can include up to 5 additional Retributors, but they act independently, um no. Thats just not going to fly. But if you do find someone that buys into that, let them know I have some bargain oceanfront property in Iowa I'd love to sell them.

Having 9 individual units of them running around would actually be bad for them anyway, its a KP nightmare. The fact that they operate independently is the reason I don't bring Tau Sniper Drone teams. If the point cost, rules, and co$t weren't already making Penitent engines a laughable choice as they are, then having them count for an armys worth of KPs would.

Your example about Retributors isn't the same because they're obviously units and purchases for a unit. I would like for you to quote for me where in the penitent engine entry it mentions anything at all about being in a squadron. The word squadron is not mentioned anywhere. It would be listed in the entry just like the previous book, and any other book that runs squadrons they clearly state "squadron" somewhere in the unit entry either in the entry itself or in the unit composition, or both. Also, even think about this just fluffwise, they're extremely aggressive with rage all the time, yet they run in nice little packs of 3 with a 3 inch coherency between them? Doesn't really make sense.

Also, I think they'd only be worth 1 kill point per 3, as they are bought as 1 heavy support choice. You'd just have to keep track of which 3 were bought together. Basically this needs a FAQ

I can see a lot of lists using Celistine...

Kreedos wrote:

Creeping Dementia wrote:Good to hear about the Rhino firepoints, a friend hasn't returned my copy of the first set yet .

Kreedos wrote:

Also, Penitent Engines in no way shape or form are a squadron any more, each penitent acts Independantly even if bought in groups of 3. 9 independant penitent engines behind a Rhino spam wall, that sounds somewhat amazing.

Just like you can include up to 5 additional Retributors, but they act independently, um no. Thats just not going to fly. But if you do find someone that buys into that, let them know I have some bargain oceanfront property in Iowa I'd love to sell them.

Having 9 individual units of them running around would actually be bad for them anyway, its a KP nightmare. The fact that they operate independently is the reason I don't bring Tau Sniper Drone teams. If the point cost, rules, and co$t weren't already making Penitent engines a laughable choice as they are, then having them count for an armys worth of KPs would.

Your example about Retributors isn't the same because they're obviously units and purchases for a unit. I would like for you to quote for me where in the penitent engine entry it mentions anything at all about being in a squadron. The word squadron is not mentioned anywhere. It would be listed in the entry just like the previous book, and any other book that runs squadrons they clearly state "squadron" somewhere in the unit entry either in the entry itself or in the unit composition, or both. Also, even think about this just fluffwise, they're extremely aggressive with rage all the time, yet they run in nice little packs of 3 with a 3 inch coherency between them? Doesn't really make sense.

I am going to go ahead and change my mind and agree with about the independent formation. To better clarify why that is, you will notice that under other entries they use "composition". Under the penitent engine's entry it uses "unit composition", so any additional engines bought for the entry still are made units of 1 model. Though I still find it funny that you can't just buy 2 for one selection, since they left out "up to".

Still wouldn't even consider doing it though...

On a different topic, why isn't an eviscerator the same as a chainfist? You think they will change the chainfist rule in 6th edition?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyone going to give their Canoness 2 eviscerators for the extra attack? I am tempted, because that would look %^#%@ sick!

In the french WD, there is the "up to" equivalent wording, in the PE options. So I would agree with 1, 2 or 3 independants PE for 1 Heavy slot. Still hard to keep them alive, but it can be quite a mess with particular deployment.

paintedpotato wrote:
Anyone going to give their Canoness 2 eviscerators for the extra attack? I am tempted, because that would look %^#%@ sick!

Why yes it would, and it is tempting if you ever have 25 extra points in the list. I had a double bladed eviserator at one point on my jump pack cannoness, that would have worked now, damn! =)

Kreedos wrote:

paintedpotato wrote:
Anyone going to give their Canoness 2 eviscerators for the extra attack? I am tempted, because that would look %^#%@ sick!

Why yes it would, and it is tempting if you ever have 25 extra points in the list. I had a double bladed eviserator at one point on my jump pack cannoness, that would have worked now, damn! =)

except for the jump pack part...

paintedpotato wrote:

Kreedos wrote:

paintedpotato wrote:
Anyone going to give their Canoness 2 eviscerators for the extra attack? I am tempted, because that would look %^#%@ sick!

Why yes it would, and it is tempting if you ever have 25 extra points in the list. I had a double bladed eviserator at one point on my jump pack cannoness, that would have worked now, damn! =)

except for the jump pack part...

Lol yeah I almost wrote that too.

Kreedos wrote:Also, I think they'd only be worth 1 kill point per 3, as they are bought as 1 heavy support choice. You'd just have to keep track of which 3 were bought together. Basically this needs a FAQ

No. It's based on units, not FOC choices. Consider Imperial Guard Infantry Platoons, or Space Marine Combat-Squadded anything. Each separate unit grants a kill point if destroyed in those cases, so even if it turned out you could field those 3 Penitent Engines as separate units, they'd each be a kill point. ^_^

You might be right.

Choices that have models that operate independently generally make it very clear that they do so. If you have to assume anything about how the PEs form up, they are almost surely meant as squadrons.

Well... the point is that there is no squadron mentioned anywhere. No "Penitent Engine Squadron" in the title, as in "Scout Sentinel Squadron", and no "Composition : Vehicle Squadron of 1-3 PE" neither.

So, I understand it can be the spirit behind permitting 3 PE in squadron per slot, but it is not written correctly. I mean, it is not to hard to write "squadron" at a point or another, isn't it ?

Grenat wrote:Well... the point is that there is no squadron mentioned anywhere. No "Penitent Engine Squadron" in the title, as in "Scout Sentinel Squadron", and no "Composition : Vehicle Squadron of 1-3 PE" neither.

So, I understand it can be the spirit behind permitting 3 PE in squadron per slot, but it is not written correctly. I mean, it is not to hard to write "squadron" at a point or another, isn't it ?

Wow! So it is like that in the French printing too?

Yep.

Machine de Pénitence --------- 85 pts

[Stats]

Composition d'unité : 1 Machine de Pénitence

[...]

Options : Inclure jusqu'à deux machines de pénitence supplémentaires -------- 85 pts par figurine

So it is more like a Walker "unit", rather than a Walkers squadron.... it is a bit strange.

So, here's another thing I've been thinking is a positive in this new codex. Footslogging seems much more viable just because of the massive amount of power armor that can be placed on the board, and now, with Dominions having scout, it solves the problem of range and mobility VS dug in armies, and gives us much needed disruption to heavy firepower.

Here's an example, 101 bodies w/ 3+/6+ saves for 2k points.

HQ

Cannoness - 65

Command Squad - 170
Celestian x 3, Diaglous, Hospitaler
Banner (Allows morale reroll within 12)
MM x 3

Troops

Sister of Battle x 10 - 160
Heavy Flamer, Flamer, Combi Flamer

Sister of Battle x 10 - 160
Heavy Flamer, Flamer, Combi Flamer

Sister of Battle x 10 - 160
Heavy Flamer, Flamer, Combi Flamer

Sister of Battle x 10 - 155
Melta Gun x 2, Combi Melta

Sister of Battle x 10 - 155
Melta Gun x 2, Combi Melta

Sister of Battle x 10 - 155
Melta Gun x 2, Combi Melta

Fast

Dominion x 5 - 175
Melta Gun x 2, Combi Melta
Immolator
TL MM

Dominion x 5 - 175
Melta Gun x 2, Combi Melta
Immolator
TL MM

Dominion x 5 - 175
Melta Gun x 2, Combi Melta
Immolator
TL MM

Heavy

Retributor Squad x 6 - 97
Heavy Bolter x 4

Retributor Squad x 6 - 97
Heavy Bolter x 4

Retributor Squad x 6 - 97
Heavy Bolter x 4

Total 1996

Basing an army off of bad wording that will likely be FAQed is just a bad idea (like the fact you can only take 1 or 3, not 2). Granted, we might not get a FAQ based on how little effort they've put into this so far, but its not something I'd bet on.

Kreedos wrote:

Also, I think they'd only be worth 1 kill point per 3, as they are bought as 1 heavy support choice. You'd just have to keep track of which 3 were bought together. Basically this needs a FAQ

This, however, is just trying to have it both ways. They'll be independent units but somehow get to ignore the rules for KPs? Every enemy unit grants a KP when killed. If you want your Penitents to be individual units, then they're going to be individual KPs, just like every other unit/transport/combat squad in the game.

Grenat wrote:
So, I understand it can be the spirit behind permitting 3 PE in squadron per slot, but it is not written correctly. I mean, it is not to hard to write "squadron" at a point or another, isn't it ?

You mean like getting picture captions right, or arco stats right, or the battle report with legal lists?

Kreedos wrote:So, here's another thing I've been thinking is a positive in this new codex. Footslogging seems much more viable just because of the massive amount of power armor that can be placed on the board, and now, with Dominions having scout, it solves the problem of range and mobility VS dug in armies, and gives us much needed disruption to heavy firepower.

Here's an example, 101 bodies w/ 3+/6+ saves for 2k points.

You have 3 transports, which makes them highly likely to get exactly one turn of life. But more importantly, you have no replies to fast moving close combat troops. Dark Eldar, 'nids, Assault Marines, anything with a 12" move, charge, or assault vehicle. They will sweep right past your engagement range, assault you, and there is little you can do but spread out (which denies units supporting each other) or pray you break on their turn. And it's not that hard to play contact games to prevent that.

I'd also field Seraphim instead of Dominions.

Seeing how most of the people from this thread are of the opinion that St. Celestine is not an IC, how will that affect how people will use her as hiding her in a squad of Seraphim would not be possible if their opinion is correct?

You mean like getting picture captions right, or arco stats right, or the battle report with legal lists?

Exactly


About Celestine, I suppose it is still possible to run her solo like we used to do with Jump-pack canoness... but she will die pretty easily... I am thinking about it...

She can/will get ID'd by a Chimera Multi-Laser...

Ya but she can come back, so I think her role will be pretty different.
Anyway, if you want a "competitive" advice, I do not feel concerned

Hmm, can the model successfully hide behind a rhino? I don't have it.

Maybe just moving solo trying to hug LOS blocking terrain, if there is any. As good a bargain as she is, she's going to need support against anything with a fist. There might be little point if you don't have any seraphim, IC or not, since she's going to need to keep S6 power weapons away from base contact.