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I admit, I'm dubious about using Arcos in Conclaves myself. The new Codex puts a bit of a cost premium on 'generalist' squads - I'd rather keep my Conclave as killy as possible, and rely on my anti-mech specialists to crack open the shell so my DCAs can get at the soft, chewy centre.

Infiltrating TH/SS deathstars aside, the Conclave is certainly an assault beast, and its value isn't to be underestimated. At the same time, wager on your opponent pegging it as one of their highest-priority targets as a result.

Multi wound GKs?

Edit:
I just realised that rarely, I used to take a GK ally shooty inquis with psycannon, plasma cannon and heavy bolters, with a Landraider for fun because I could convert it in a chapel (inquisitor is the female commissar model, and quite sister-y).

I would have rather liked to have an LR transport my Uriah bomb into battle, or even put repentia in it to have fun with them~

I'm not really seeing a lot of use in putting the crusaders in the conclave. I guess if you are worried about having to charge into cover. I'm really liking the idea of 9 DCA + mr. feel no pain. The addition of feel no paint to the unit means that they can actually survive their ride getting blown up or take some small arms fire without needing the crusaders to soak up the wounds.

I'm also surprised I'm not seeing a lot of people talking about putting the combi's on the sergeants. With the acts the way they are for battle sisters and dominions I'm thinking about taking a lof of combi-plasma and combi-flamers.

5 dominion with 2 melta guns, a combi-plasma, inside of a multi-melta immolator just sounds scary to me. With the twin linking I see them dropping monstrous creatures like candy. Not to mention dishing out tons of wounds.

My old setup was melta on celestians and flamers on the battle sister squads. I feel like now I want melta on the battle sister squads and flamers on the dominions (for the twin link). The problem being of course the dominions are also awesome for putting the melta's on them as well.

pretre wrote:That's net win for the Bomb. If it is a combat squad, then they're dead.

That's a good point. For a squad that's under 200 points, the posse' can open a barrel of whoop-ass.

@Warmaster: That's actually why my dominions are twin flamer, combi-melta in a TL-MM Immo. TL on Flamers is hot.

That's what makes seraphim flamers surprisingly sexy despite them being S3; four shots + faith making them the equiv of twin linked.

As for immolator dominions, I've found that it's going to get asploded on round 1 more often than not anywho~

The problem with Uriah's FNP, is we're talking about T3 models and if you are counter charging you can bet you're up against power weapons; that's what makes the crusader payoff worth considering. It also lets them get places~

Minor edit: I'd actually happily take the extra specials in a rhino over an immo at the moment, but that's just because Immo's don't have pseudo fast so I sulk at them

One hidden gem in the list to me is the heavy flamer retributor. Even at 20 points a pop. A unit of 5 with 4 heavy flamers kills 7 marines on average if divine guidance goes off and you get 5 marines underneath the templates. For only 145. Also the only unit I'd even consider the simulacrum, since its so key to get the act off.

Seems to me like a great unit to tail behind the domininions in a rhino. Or perhaps in an immo (although I like the idea of being able to fire from the rhino).

Sure you lose exorcists but without something like the heavy flamer retributor unit the army lacks any major punch against troops.

@Winterman: You need a transport too. I really thought about it because I used to run the ol' Easy Bake Oven in 3rd edition, but haven't yet just because of cost.

Also for everyone taking celstine. If you want a baby sitter unit for her I don't think it should be seraphim. I think it needs to be a battle sister squad on foot. Their act of faith means that you can never auto-run celstine off the table, once the unit takes a casualty (and celestine is with them) it's a 2+ to rally the unit.

It will slow her down a little bit but make it a lot more difficult to deal with. And once she gets where she's going she can split off and leave the battle sister squad alone to do other things.

Still reasonable unit cost to me even with rhino.

List I was considering if I could find some qqing sister player selling/trading the army off

Jacobus 90
K-Man 90

8 conclave in rhino 155
8 conclave in rhino 155

10 B sisters melta bunker (rhino, MM, MG, Combi-MG) 190
10 B sisters melta bunker (rhino, MM, MG, Combi-MG) 190

5 Dominion combi-melta, 2x MG in MM-immolater 180
5 Dominion combi-melta, 2x MG in MM-immolater 180
5 Dominion combi-melta, 2x MG in MM-immolater 180

5 Retributor 4 heavy flamer, Simulcrum in rhino 200
5 Retributor 4 heavy flamer, Simulcrum in rhino 200
5 Retributor 4 heavy flamer, in rhino 180 (K-man in here).

10 points left, probably put dozer blades on the bsisters rhino.

Follow scouting dominion wave with cleansing retibutor flamerage. Conclaves pull counter charge duty, with the doms and rets as the bait. K-man gives the bait some staying power if needed and his laud hailer gets more work potentially with the simulcrums in play.

Light on troops for my taste but seems workable. Also more fun to me then usual mech builds, could also mix the load outs a bit to eliminate the same-e-ness.

I was asking about Heavy Flamer retributors when the first half was released ;3 sadly the 20 point cost means I don't consider it viable.

As far as celestine goes: I usually have her behind rhinos on her way up anyway.

pretre wrote:
Simulacrum is not really worth it for 20 points. Wasn't in the old book, still isn't now.

Only on models that need to Act reliably. Command squads and Repentia, if the Repentia can even have one.

winterman wrote:One hidden gem in the list to me is the heavy flamer retributor. Even at 20 points a pop. A unit of 5 with 4 heavy flamers kills 7 marines on average if divine guidance goes off and you get 5 marines underneath the templates. For only 145. Also the only unit I'd even consider the simulacrum, since its so key to get the act off.

Seems to me like a great unit to tail behind the domininions in a rhino. Or perhaps in an immo (although I like the idea of being able to fire from the rhino).

Sure you lose exorcists but without something like the heavy flamer retributor unit the army lacks any major punch against troops.

200 points for a 5 model unit is just too much, and I still believe you need every Exorcist you can get to deal with MSU transports and MCs.

So, I've been able to get quite a few games in with the new Sisters over the past week, and unfortunately I'm having the least success with them I've ever had with a 40k army. IIRC my record so far is 2/3/7 W/D/L, all at 2000pts. I'm in a fairly competitive area, which I like, but its also brutal on weaker armies. I'm just not sure what to do about the army, maybe you guys have some ideas on how to get over some problems.

1) Staying power: I'm having trouble keeping my units in line. The severe vulnerability to assaults and getting sweeping advanced is really taking its toll. I'm getting beaten in CC by Tac squads and gaunts pretty consistently. As a result, I'm noticing my playstyle is getting more paranoid when it comes to BSS squads, and mainly just using them for firing out of Rhino hatches and making scoring Rhinos, very Tau-like. Having a conclave is nice, and has been able to reliably take out one unit or so, not quite enough to compenstate for the fragility of the rest of the army.

2) Psykic defense: I've been getting beaten down pretty bad by Librarians lately too. Specifically, an opponents dual Fear the Darkness BA libby army isn't even breaking a sweat while running me off the table. Once those Rhinos are popped my units are running. GKs abilities haven't been too bad, in CC I'm toast anyway regardless of Hammerhand. These are similar problems my Tau have been having lately, just not used to it with my Sisters.

3) Changing Target Priority: Some of my opponents are starting to realize that my infantry aren't as solid as they used to be, and as a result my Exorcists have been getting slammed hard and early, while Rhinos are generally ignored, or just shaken then ignored. My opponents used to worry about getting stuck in combat and tarpitted with the Sisters, but they are starting to realize that if they can withstand their own rhinos getting popped by close-up meltas, then they can usually get rid of the Girls in CC next turn. Now, Exorcists are comparatively a greater threat, resulting in most/all anti-tank weaponry going for them early.

My army does seem to have enough firepower, its really just everything else I'm having trouble with (leadership, CC, Psykers, KPs and C&C missions). I'm pretty close to shelving them and/or just painting them for a while.

Is anyone having consistent good actual experiences with Sisters at 2000 and higher? Offer any tips? Theory and mathing it out is great, but it's just not transitioning to the tabletop for me.

No advice; I really miss BosL and 3++. Celestine does her job at least, but essentially we're just weak.

YMMV but I've been finding the Uriah bomb good for controlling when I get cc crushed. It's so weird to find people hiding from my sisters in cc now, when that's what I used to do.

Obviously we have no option at all about psy powers, and the only.

Consider a second Confessor for a second DCA unit? Maybe even Kyrinov and his fearless bubble?

What you are describing was one of by bigger fears. Unless you beat that SM unit you are shooting at down to 5 models or so, it's going to charge you and beat you in melee eventually.

Spiku wrote:The problem with Uriah's FNP, is we're talking about T3 models and if you are counter charging you can bet you're up against power weapons; that's what makes the crusader payoff worth considering. It also lets them get places~

it also lets them take a few shots if their transport is popped. They can still take some hits on the crusaders before losing their fragile assassins.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Creeping Dementia wrote:Is anyone having consistent good actual experiences with Sisters at 2000 and higher? Offer any tips? Theory and mathing it out is great, but it's just not transitioning to the tabletop for me.

Can you post your list?

I can tell you right now that if I was playing a marine army, and I saw a sisters squad with my TAC squad, I would assault it. The STR 3 T 3 are just to big of disadvantages. Without the book of st cheeze, its easy to push them off the board. The fact is a sisters squad outside their rhino is just waiting for assault. They need that candy shell to keep them safe.

As another idea, can you try this list and see how it works? (using proxies)
9 Penenient Engines each as its own unit.
2 Conclave squads
As many rhinos as possible to screen your sisters.
The strategy is to use your rhinos to pop transports with MGs/MMs. Use your engines and conclaves to assault the crap out whatever you popped.
You will need to run your engines every turn, so they will be going 9.5 inches a turn. This means you move your rhinos up on turn 1 and pop smoke. The engines get obscurement from the rhinos. On turn 2, move up a bit more but not a full 12, or else your engines will lose thier cover. By turn 3, you should be popping and then the engines should be doing their work.
This will work better vs assault armies, such as BA.

Thats all on paper. If you have the proper group to play with, can you try it and see how it works?

After several re-writes, my current list stands at:

St. Celestine
Jacobus
Conclave: 3 Crusaders, 6 DCA, Rhino w/ searchlight

10 Dominions- 4 meltas, Simulacrum, Rhino w/ searchlight
10 Dominions- 4 meltas, Simulacrum, Rhino w/ searchlight
10 Dominions- 4 flamers, Simulacrum, Rhino w/ searchlight

Exorcist
Exorcist
Exorcist

BSS squad- 2 meltas, Rhino w/ searchlight
BSS squad- 2 meltas, Rhino w/ searchlight
BSS squad- 2 meltas, Rhino w/ searchlight


I dropped Heavy Flamers out of everything, they're just too expensive and without Divine Guidance I'm finding the extra Melta to be a better all-comer choice. That does leave lists more vulnerable to hordes, but I can't worry about hordes if I can't beat marines first.

I have run Immolator Dominions in the past as well, but it really just comes down to; is 80 points worth a single Multi melta shot? I'm not seeing that to be the case, and more bodies has been more beneficial. I've run Seraphim as well, but they just don't have any utility and serve no real purpose in the army.

Celestine is sort of a weird fit in this list, but its hard to pass up on one of the only obviously good units in the Dex. My next step will be to try dropping her for another conclave.




As for a Penitent army idea, I might try subbing it out and see what happens. I don't really see the point in playtesting an army I'd never actually purchase models for in the future, but it might be fun. Obvious weaknesses for it would be KP missions, and DE opponents.

Creeping Dementia wrote:
10 Dominions- 4 meltas, Simulacrum, Rhino w/ searchlight
10 Dominions- 4 meltas, Simulacrum, Rhino w/ searchlight

How would you compare the effectiveness of the 10 member squad as compared to a 5 member squad? The reason I ask is that I think you might be able to cut down on the squad size of these two in exchance for some combi weapons on all of the squads.

Based on your experience using these squads, would you get similar results if you were to use 5 Dominions-2 meltas, combi-plasma gun, Rhino w/ searchlight? You still get a good round of four high strength AP shots at a fraction of the points.

And generally I feel that you dont need simulacrum on the squad unless you only expect to get only one round of very important shooting and then proceed to take one to the face. With the 10 member unit it seems like you want them to stick around, but the simulacrum tells me otherwise. Their BS is high enough that you are not going to miss that much anyway.

Take it from Arnold, "Between your faith and my Glock nine millimeter, I'll take the Glock." Another weapon to complement the squad's special weapons is better than re-rolling faith checks for the ones you have.

I actually like the 10 man squads, because it gives us a chance to survive firing. The only problem is it increases our chances of having points tied up in cc, which is the end of days for us.

I don't agree with the simulacrum, because whilst the points are essentially going back into the unit to ensure the few misses on meltas hit, it could go toward combi-meltas or possibly an eviscerator.

The shame of dominions is that you can only fire two of the meltas from the rhino anyway ;3

Some of the comments in: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/394589.page may help

Yeah, my first reaction would be to cut the Doms to 5, or the sims. What I don't know is what I would add. If you cut sims, which I probably would at 10 model units, I'd add combis. Nothing else to add, really.

If you cut to 5 model Doms I'd try a Repentia unit, or swapping Celestine for Kryinov/Confessor and a second DCA unit.

Creeping Dementia wrote:After several re-writes, my current list stands at:

St. Celestine
Jacobus
Conclave: 3 Crusaders, 6 DCA, Rhino w/ searchlight

10 Dominions- 4 meltas, Simulacrum, Rhino w/ searchlight
10 Dominions- 4 meltas, Simulacrum, Rhino w/ searchlight
10 Dominions- 4 flamers, Simulacrum, Rhino w/ searchlight

Exorcist
Exorcist
Exorcist

BSS squad- 2 meltas, Rhino w/ searchlight
BSS squad- 2 meltas, Rhino w/ searchlight
BSS squad- 2 meltas, Rhino w/ searchlight

That looks like a pretty solid list. You have the Exorcists to crack armor at range, you have the conclave squad to do some good counter assault, and you have some melta gun squads. But your telling us that its just not coming together and your getting wiped in the assault phase.

Like a recepie, the quanity of specific amounts can be the difference between success and failure. If your getting clobbered in assault, then you need to determine how to address the issue and resolve it. There are two solutions to keep yourself from being assaulted to death. The first solution is to bring counter assault units that can do the job on theirs, and the second solution is to keep yourself from being assaulted.

* We agree that the Conclave is an awesome CC unit. Why not bring 2 of them and drop St. Celestine? While St. Celestine is beautiful, she cannot wipe a squad of MEQ in 1 round of assault, where a Conclave unit can. It also brings more synargy to your army, as you don't have a single model sitting out waiting for AC/LC shots to insta-kill her. If you add another conclave squad, you will increase the overall power of your assault force. Sure, it wont be another Jacobus posse' but its still pretty darn good.

* If you run the mathhammer, 10 battle sisters with 2 MG wont do much against a squad of MEQ your going to kill ~3.5 of them. If that's the case, you need to make sure you never fire just 1 squad at 1 squad, but instead always bring 2 of yours to 1 of theirs. To help even the odds more in your favor, take combi-plasma on your sisters superior, which will kill about .8 more MEQ per squad. So long as your enemy is not in cover, that's a good option. Otherwise the sisters need to stay in their rhinos.

* Dominions can bring lots of fire to the game. 10 of them will kill ~5 MEQ in a round of shooting, which is not bad. (assuming their twin linked). You will still need to use 2 squads of them to finish one squad of enemy. Another option is to lower them to 5 woman squads and use them as cheap melta-bunkers. Another idea is to go with an immolator. A final idea I wanted to share is the 4 flamers. If each flamer can hit 6 MEQ, thats 24 hits. If your twin linked thats 18 wounds, or 6 dead MEQ -- a decent number and much better against horde.

I think the standard format for a successful sisters army has changed, and new successful formats need to be determined.

Twin re-rolled flamer dominions, with a melta immolator, work rather well. The MM immolator pops the vehical, the doms toast them.

I consider Clestine valuable as she does draw some fire, and will return to the fray, she adds a certain level of field control that I find appreciable. If I could have a second Uriah, I'd jump on a second conclave~

Magic Juggler has made me consider the MM in sister squads as objective holders, because they do scare off vehicals very well, and essentially they are not good at anything at all anyway, so why not.

What I found at 2000 was that the seraphim with flamers and celestine were the face of the army. Every one knows that uriah and 9 dca are brutal, so it falls on the seraphim and celestine to lead point while uriah counter charges. With celestine detached, the seraphim can hit and run, and they are the only unit of sisters have eviserators.

I also have combi weapons on everything, 3 exo, 2 dominions with melta, and 3 melta bss.