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According to the DA Codex, the Inner Circle wants to keep the existence of the Fallen a secret, otherwise they fear DA would be "reviled as traitors" and would lose any chance of regaining their honor.

So I'm thinking, if I was a Fallen, angry and bitter towards my erstwhile Loyalist lapdog brothers, my next course of action should be obvious. Go public and announce to the galaxy how half the DA turned traitor during the heresy.

"But no one would believe the words of a traitor! Even if they somehow managed to jack a planetary broadcast system, no one would listen to them!"

Well by all accounts the Fallen are an intelligent and cunning bunch, they are said to know the DA even better than they know themselves (see: Angels of Darkness). Its not unreasonable to assume they'd figure out a way to get this public, by revealing info to an inquisitor or whatever. Then after that snicker in their vox grills as the DA get subject to Inquisitorial examination. I'm not sure if even the Inq could purge a First Founding chapter, but its the stain on their honor and knowing that the galaxy knows their BIG DARK SECRET that would be the victory for the Fallen.

What does Dakka think?

because then the fallen would be hunted as well.they can't know the secret without being deathwing gone rogue or fallen.

Well, you see, Why in the name of Holly Terra would you want to vox your location to the entire universe if you are, you know, A TRAITOR?

Well, one, a planetary vox system covers, at best, just that planet, not the whole galaxy. It takes a really, really long time for an astropathic message to go from one side of the galaxy to the others, if it even arrives at all.

Secondly... the Administratum and Ecclesiarchy's and Inquisition's grip on the populace is very strong indeed. So, some Fallen get a planetary vox, and they spill the beans.

They're dead inside of a week as a Vindicare, 5 Ultramarines, 16 Space Wolves and 450 Imperial Stormtroopers hunt them down and kill them to a Marine.

The Ecclesiarchy gets on the planetary vox and calms the population, informing them that heretics and rebels had temporarily gained control of the station and spread lies about the regal Sons of the Emperor, but these elements have now been "dealt with" by forces of the Holy Inquisition.

The resulting investigation of the DA, if it happens at all, will be circumspect and very low-key.

Chowderhead wrote:Well, you see, Why in the name of Holly Terra would you want to vox your location to the entire universe if you are, you know, A TRAITOR?

They don't have to announce their location. Just the existence of the Fallen.

Let's just assume that the Fallen can, through means subtle and unseen, make the knowledge of their existence public. Like letting certain information fall into the hands of Inquisitors or the Ecclesiarchy. Its not unreasonable, given their history of misdirection and cunning. Heck look at Piscina V, they staged that whole thing to force the DA to choose between saving the population or pursuing the Fallen.

Deadshot wrote:because then the fallen would be hunted as well.they can't know the secret without being deathwing gone rogue or fallen.

Good point. This probably affects those Fallen who're trying to live out their existence in obscurity on an asteroid somewhere. But I'd argue though that for the Chaos Fallen, who already live in the EoT / Maelstrom, this is no big deal and would not bother them in the least. its not as if the Imperium can just fly into the EoT and kill them

Because no one but the Inquisition would ever listen to Chaos agents, and the Inquisition wouldn't really want to try to dissolve one of the original legions, even if they could. It really wouldn't do a whole lot.

Methinks you are trying to use logic in 40k. Last time I saw someone do that they had to be taken away to a place with padded walls and a very tight jacket.

Commissar Typhus wrote:Methinks you are trying to use logic in 40k. Last time I saw someone do that they had to be taken away to a place with padded walls and a very tight jacket.

I tried doing this one once too

OP has a point, even if they just spread rumors amongst the populace somehow, it'd put the DA in a tight spot trying to explain why it's never been noted, or where these 'rumors' are coming from. If they live in the EoT then they've nothing to lose since the imperium can't just waltz on in and defeat them. Although saying that, it might be benefical for them to be so hidden, only 1 chapter knows about them and they don't want anyone to know about it. So they're non existant to most people.

Because the Fallen, by and large, aren't out to "ruin" the Dark Angels.

There's a reason they were flung throughout space and time. Luther lost his nerve, as did many of the Fallen. They began to question why they were doing what they were doing, making them unsuitable playthings for Chaos.

The Fallen who actually went entirely over to Chaos have been absorbed into the Traitor Astartes ranks.

I could see it working if the right information got to the right inquisitors. especially if the Fallen was willing to give up one of his brothers as 'evidence'. Or could somehow trick a loyalist into admitting to it, recording/transmitting it, or even just having the inquisitor close enough to hear, but having him hidden. Unlikely, but doable.

@Kan I agree with you, mostly. There seem to be many 'flavors' of Fallen each with their own agendas. I'm just wondering for those Fallen who are genuinely aggrieved with their ex-brethren and would happily see them destroyed, why wouldn't they go ahead and do this?

Commissar Typhus wrote:Methinks you are trying to use logic in 40k. Last time I saw someone do that they had to be taken away to a place with padded walls and a very tight jacket.

Actually I think you hit it on the head lol, I'm probably overthinking this Of course its much cooler for the DA to be hunting the Fallen throughout space and time.

Exactly as Kanluwen and some of the previous posters stated.

Either they are fallen who did not turn to chaos and are not out to give the DA a bad name at all
Or they are already part of some chaos legion and are actively trying to ruin the DA by blasting them to pieces.
But the debate here is if the fallen decided to try out the plan of getting a message out to the great bureaucracy saying hey were traitors, we left the DA b/c we hate you and what you stand for...
Just think about what your really saying here. A fallen trying to make the DA look bad by saying "Hey imperium FU, I'm a traitor who defected from the DA, you should be mad at them!"...That doesn't make any sense! haha Do you see the flaw with a plan like that? Trying to expose the DA by claiming YOU are a traitor to the Imperium! All that would happen is the DA would swoop in and wipe whoever sent the message out b/c they have a whole special battalion dedicated to wiping out those of the DA who betrayed the imperium and anyone who would reveal the inner secrets of the order.
Sorry but I don't see it happening, or working if it ever did

And what we're saying is a Fallen WOULD NOT do it like that. See what CoI posted 2 posts up, that's how they'd go about doing it.

I used to wonder this.

I am sure that many Fallen (such as the main one in Angels of Darkness) actually care for the honour of their chapter and thus wouldn't call them out on it. Others may be concerned with their own survival.

But it makes sense that there should be at least one Chaos-corrupted bunch or something. Hell, they could do it whilst riding along with the Black Crusade.

But my personal guess? I think it's happened before. The DA have shown that they will go to lengths so far as destroying a Black Templars Battle Barge to stop the news spreading. Methink the DA have vast networks that would pick up on any such broadcast and react with lightning speed. The Fallen would be detained any err, any 'witnesses' dealt with...

So far, the only Fallen we've seen who are operating with Chaos are operating in small warbands alongside the Alpha Legion. Arkos the Faithless, the instigator of the Vraksian War, is reputed to be a member of the Fallen who's joined the Alpha Legion.

Make of that what you will.

Even if they did it would be a hard story to believe, they are traitors and traitors lie.

Kanluwen wrote:So far, the only Fallen we've seen who are operating with Chaos are operating in small warbands alongside the Alpha Legion. Arkos the Faithless, the instigator of the Vraksian War, is reputed to be a member of the Fallen who's joined the Alpha Legion.

Make of that what you will.

I'll make cookies.

Kanluwen wrote:So far, the only Fallen we've seen who are operating with Chaos are operating in small warbands alongside the Alpha Legion. Arkos the Faithless, the instigator of the Vraksian War, is reputed to be a member of the Fallen who's joined the Alpha Legion.

Make of that what you will.

If you include the BL novels - one of the Fallen works with the Thousand Sons in "Sons of Fenris"

The 40K universe doesn't work like a newspaper, A Fallen cannot just 'announce' something to the IoM.

They first have to survive long enough to get the interest of someone in power and saying that you are a renegade (an important part of a Fallen's story) will likely cut that short.

You also ave the whole thing of one not at all credible renegade against the whole system of power, its not gonna work.

As a side note, it was no where near half the legion that turned, it was just the ones left on Caliban.

Psienesis wrote:They're dead inside of a week as a Vindicare, 5 Ultramarines, 16 Space Wolves and 450 Imperial Stormtroopers hunt them down and kill them to hunt one Marine.

You forgot Kaldor Draigo when he's not carving a tag into the hearts of primarchs.

It's worse... they have a CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT.

As a fallen your best bet to hurt the Dark Angels, would be to reveal their secret to other chapters, not the Imperium at large.

For example the Minotaurs chapter, who like killing other "heretical" chapters, and taking their war material.

The major issue of course would be convincing them.

hexra wrote:As a fallen your best bet to hurt the Dark Angels, would be to reveal their secret to other chapters, not the Imperium at large.

For example the Minotaurs chapter, who like killing other "heretical" chapters, and taking their war material.

The major issue of course would be convincing them.

You'd also need to get quite a few chapters together for this since you wouldn't just be going up against the Dark Angels as a chapter, you'd have to take on the entire legion. That's not a fight that many chapters would want to start.

hexra wrote:As a fallen your best bet to hurt the Dark Angels, would be to reveal their secret to other chapters, not the Imperium at large.

For example the Minotaurs chapter, who like killing other "heretical" chapters, and taking their war material.

The major issue of course would be convincing them.

Why should they believe the "fallen" isn't a traitor and listen?
Wait, they just admit to be traitors and thus their loyal brethren are heretics....

* I is traitor and Dark Angel and thus... BLAM*
* I is fellow battlebrother but i do know the DA's secret... how do you know that? because i is one of the....BLAM*

Shoot first, talk later.

@1had OP said...

rabidaskal wrote:

Let's just assume that the Fallen can, through means subtle and unseen, make the knowledge of their existence public. Like letting certain information fall into the hands of Inquisitors or the Ecclesiarchy. Its not unreasonable, given their history of misdirection and cunning. Heck look at Piscina V, they staged that whole thing to force the DA to choose between saving the population or pursuing the Fallen.

And that is why my post is the way it is.

@after8 I said hurt them. I agree with you. The unforgiven banded together would be impossible for one chapter to destroy. But at the same time, space is big and the Unforgiven are spread out. Minotaurs or some other chapter could forseeably take the Dark Angels by surprise.

Doesn't matter if the setup is a "magical solution to inform a third party someone else is worth their attention" as its unlikely that anyone is able to contact the inquisition without them doubting their sources. So the moment he made it "public", is the moment he gets checked himself and with a status as "traitor" means his claims are not to believe and dismissed. Instead of hurting the DA, its interrogation time
Ministorum isn't better. To piss in the DA's parade gets you where? a crusade of faith? If that comes up, the enfuraited masses will not be able to identify a DA and just attack ANY power-armored figure...soon to be brought back into line by the IG or the first marine they "mistakenly" attacked. The members of the priesthood who started that will be declared heretics and burnt at the stake. Their followers purged, since no one is interested in uprisals against imperial rule. To question the astartes is to question the Emperor. And thats just far above the head of any ecclesiarch.
But there was the point of marine vs marine. minotaurs? They stand alone IIRC and don't have so many friends...
Gather a lot of marines and someone will ask questions. "oh we just assembled these 15 chapters to destroy those 10 chapters" may grant you the unwanted attention of more marines. You know, its hard to forge an alliance of a few chapters with valid and proved information.
Having just accusations and beginning something that looks like another heresy, another badab war.... can you imagine the speed of the
IoM when it comes to preventing that? The misguided who have fallen into the trap of the fallen will epically suffer from this.

I bet a lot of top tier Inquisitors do know, it's just: whatever. The Dark Angels care a lot more about this than everyone else.

With the way the =I= seems to react to things you would think that a little note would set off an investigation. As an example a Fallen sends the following to the local =I=.

Dear =I=,
We have traitors in the warp. Dark Angel traitors...we send bikers and termies after them. TMI?

Your BFF,
Azrael

Would the Imperium be bothered?

It was 10,000 years ago. The Primarch was Loyal, therefore the Legion couldnt be called Traitors.

There were 200+ Actual Marines who rebelled, the rest were recruits who had never left Caliban. It was led by Luther who was Human and consisted of the majority of the Calibanite recruited Marines. Johnson knew they were suspect, thats why he sent them back to Caliban.

Odd Marines from other Loyal Legions have rebelled over the last 10,000 years. Chapters dont get wiped out for one or two rebelling, thats why they have Chaplains.

Cypher was and still is the interesting one. He was an Agent of Johnson's, so did he fulfill his brief/is still fulfilling his brief, or did he bretray the Lion?

Also, who is the most vicious at hunting down the fallen? The DAs. So just let 'em go at it.