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This debate has come up on another forum I read (more bug centric) and I'm curious what the truly withering knowledge of rules this forum can present. The scenario is simple:

A zoanthrope is tank shocked, can it use Warp Lance on the tank (assuming it passes a psychic test)?

Tank Shock says you can use a close-combat or ranged weapon.
Warp Lance says that it counts as a ranged shooting attack, replacing a ranged weapon use.

I'm guessing RAW is it can't, and RAI is it can?

It looks like you've answered your own question.

You can only use it once per turn, so it'll only work against the first Tank Shock.

you can only use a close combat, or shooting attack in a DoG attempt.

Warp Lance is a Psychic Shooting Attack, and may not be used because it is not listed as something you can use during DoG.

Agree with DR. "shot from a weapon carried by the model, or a single close combat ..." does not leave room to do something that the model could normally do instead of shooting.

"Using a psychic shooting attack counts as using a ranged weapon (an assault weapon, unless specified otherwise)" brb pg50

DoG gets a single attack from a ranged weapon or close combat weapon.

Not sure where the debate is here.

1 attack

The debate is whether "counts as a ranged weapon" qualifies for "weapon carried by the model".

I would absolutely allow my opponent to make a PSA in DoG. (Just like I allow my opponent to hang their vehicle off the edge of the board when coming on from reserves.)

But I do think that RAW is "weapon carried by the model." The fact that a PSA counts as firing a ranged weapon does not make it a ranged weapon carried by the model.

Why not? The shot is coming from it's mind. In this case, the ranged weapon it is carrying is it's brain. It may not be as easy to see as a missile launcher, but it's a weapon just the same and follows all written rules.

Now you're trying to apply logic and reasoning. Which is all very well, but unless you can show a rule that says a psyker's brain is to be treated like a weapon you're just making a house rule.

If it didn't have a weapon, it couldn't fire a ranged attack. That's not a house rule.

Not to mention the fact that the "counts as firing a ranged weapon" line is very specific, an no one has given any valid reason why this clearly written rule doesn't count.

For what it's worth, I think the most promising line of reasoning for RAW allowing a PSA DoG lies in the wording for models that can use more than one ranged weapon per turn.

I would argue that scope of that is just to be clear that you give up firing one ranged weapon in order to make a PSA, but the wording is "he can replace the firing of any of the weapons he is allowed to fire with a psychic shooting attack."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

omerakk wrote:Not to mention the fact that the "counts as firing a ranged weapon" line is very specific, an no one has given any valid reason why this clearly written rule doesn't count.

Because if the psyker's brain was a ranged weapon, a PSA wouldn't have to count as firing a ranged weapon. It would in fact be firing a ranged weapon.

Right, just like a model armed with a pistol and a bolt gun can choose to either fire his bolt gun, or, replace that weapon by shooting with his pistol instead.
And why can a pysker choose to replace their gun with a pyschic shooting attack? Because it counts as a ranged weapon. Period.

You can't make the argument that "counts as" does not mean "counts as". This is the same thing people tried to do with cleansing flame 2 months ago. That rule even went one step forward by stating "this attacks counts as a cc attack for all intents and purposes, and people still tried to say it didn't count.

There are no rules backing up why a pys shooting attack can't be used during DoG. If you can't specifically point to one in the brb, that's the end of it.

omerakk wrote:"Using a psychic shooting attack counts as using a ranged weapon (an assault weapon, unless specified otherwise)" brb pg50

DoG gets a single attack from a ranged weapon or close combat weapon.

Not sure where the debate is here.

There should not be a debate, since a PSA is not "A shot form a weapon carried by the model, or a single close combat attack using any weapon carried, including grenades." P.69

PSA's can not be used to Death or Glory.

DeathReaper wrote:

omerakk wrote:"Using a psychic shooting attack counts as using a ranged weapon (an assault weapon, unless specified otherwise)" brb pg50

DoG gets a single attack from a ranged weapon or close combat weapon.

Not sure where the debate is here.

There should not be a debate, since a PSA is not "A shot form a weapon carried by the model, or a single close combat attack using any weapon carried, including grenades." P.69

PSA's can not be used to Death or Glory.

"A shot from a weapon carried by the model"
"Counts as a ranged weapon"

Nominating the thread for a lock now.

omerakk wrote:"A shot from a weapon carried by the model"
"Counts as a ranged weapon"

Nominating the thread for a lock now.

Mind not misquoting the rule?

"using a PSA counts as firing a ranged weapon."

Does not count as a ranged weapon

P.50

When you use a PSA you count as firing a ranged weapon, ergo you can only assault the target you shot at etc. but it is not "A shot form a weapon carried by the model"

DoG you are only allowed to use "A shot form a weapon carried by the model, or a single close combat attack using any weapon carried, including grenades." P.69

"A shot from a weapon carried by the model"

Ya, a shot fired from a ranged weapon. What part of "counts as firing a ranged weapon" don't you get?

I think [mod] insaniak said it best the last time he shut down one of your little debates about the hive commander ability:
"It only needs to be written better for the sake of those who want to make pointless arguments for the sake of argument. "

omerakk wrote:"A shot from a weapon carried by the model"

Ya, a shot fired from a ranged weapon. What part of "counts as firing a ranged weapon" don't you get?

I think [mod] insaniak said it best the last time he shut down one of your little debates about the hive commander ability:
"It only needs to be written better for the sake of those who want to make pointless arguments for the sake of argument. "

First off the underlined above is unnecessary and should be left out of rules debates. This is not a "pointless argument for the sake of argument."

Using a PSA counts as firing a ranged weapon, but is not "a weapon carried by the model" it is a Psychic power.

The allowance on P.69 is "The attack can be either a shot form a weapon carried by the model, or a single close combat attack using any weapon carried, including grenades." P.69

Since it does not mention that you can use a PSA, you can not use a PSA.

omerakk wrote:I think [mod] insaniak said it best the last time he shut down one of your little debates about the hive commander ability:
"It only needs to be written better for the sake of those who want to make pointless arguments for the sake of argument. "

The 'is the model alive?' debate is a completely different creature.

There's a valid distinction being made here. Yes, using a PSA counts as firing a ranged weapon, but that just tells you how to resolve the attack. It doesn't make the Psychic Power a ranged weapon... you just use the psychic power by following the same rules as if you were making a ranged attack. You still need permission to use a psychic power rather than a weapon in order to actually use it, because it's not a weapon, it's just used like one.


DoG specifies what the model can use. So while personally I feel that using a PSA fits the spirit of the rule and I would allow it on the table, there's a very valid RAW argument for not allowing it.

insaniak wrote:

omerakk wrote:I think [mod] insaniak said it best the last time he shut down one of your little debates about the hive commander ability:
"It only needs to be written better for the sake of those who want to make pointless arguments for the sake of argument. "

The 'is the model alive?' debate is a completely different creature.

There's a valid distinction being made here. Yes, using a PSA counts as firing a ranged weapon, but that just tells you how to resolve the attack. It doesn't make the Psychic Power a ranged weapon... you just use the psychic power by following the same rules as if you were making a ranged attack. You still need permission to use a psychic power rather than a weapon in order to actually use it, because it's not a weapon, it's just used like one.


DoG specifies what the model can use. So while personally I feel that using a PSA fits the spirit of the rule and I would allow it on the table, there's a very valid RAW argument for not allowing it.

<Laughs> I see what you did there...[the underlined]

back on topic, RaW does not allow you to use a PSA on a Death or Glory attempt.

I would have to agree with 'Reaper here.RAW trumphs RAI every time in my opinion,as we cannot be sure what the RAI was,because we didn't make them.

However,I would normally try to Lance a tank shock.Has never came up,but I would if the conditons werte right,ie,1 power a turn,which shouldn't be a problem as TS occurs in the opposing pleyrs turn.


My original staement stands,RAW>RAI, but,RAW for TS is a gun or wargear type thing.RAW for PSA is replace a weapon(gun or something that functions like a gun,like Soul Grinder Mawcannons IIRC the name,which has a weapons profile).


That brings up a second point.I wouldn't allow things like machine curse or Hive Tyrant powers,which don't have a profile,but PSA with a profile,ie,warp lance,I would allow.

insaniak wrote:


DoG specifies what the model can use. So while personally I feel that using a PSA fits the spirit of the rule and I would allow it on the table, there's a very valid RAW argument for not allowing it.

DeathReaper wrote:

back on topic, RaW does not allow you to use a PSA on a Death or Glory attempt.

Agreed. A psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon. It does not count as a ranged weapon itself. It is a subtle, but important distinction. Technically, the "ranged weapon" in question would be Warp Lance. Warp Lance isn't "carried on the model", I would argue.

That said, I'd probably allow it. Maybe. . .

I know this is logic vs GW,

But a zoanthrope could easily fire Warp Lance into the tank,because as a synapse creature the Hive mind would make it.

Deadshot wrote:I know this is logic vs GW,

But a zoanthrope could easily fire Warp Lance into the tank,because as a synapse creature the Hive mind would make it.

That's more like Fluff vs. Rules, imo.

Deadshot wrote:RAW for TS is a gun or wargear type thing.

Not quite. RAW is "shot from a weapon carried by the model, or a single close combat attack using any weapon carried, including grenades." You are not given permission to use any wargear type thing.

Deadshot wrote:RAW for PSA is replace a weapon(gun or something that functions like a gun,like Soul Grinder Mawcannons IIRC the name,which has a weapons profile).

Once again, not quite. It counts as firing a ranged weapon. But by RAW it does not replace the firing of a ranged weapon the model is carrying, unless the model is allowed to fire more than one ranged weapon per turn. RAW is stupid like that sometimes.

omerakk wrote:"Using a psychic shooting attack counts as using a ranged weapon (an assault weapon, unless specified otherwise)" brb pg50

DoG gets a single attack from a ranged weapon or close combat weapon.

Not sure where the debate is here.

This.

Night's Blood wrote:

omerakk wrote:"Using a psychic shooting attack counts as using a ranged weapon (an assault weapon, unless specified otherwise)" brb pg50

DoG gets a single attack from a ranged weapon or close combat weapon.

Not sure where the debate is here.

This.

Is incorrect, since "Using a psychic shooting attack counts as using Firing a ranged weapon"

It does not count as using a ranged weapon.

puma713 wrote:A psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon. It does not count as a ranged weapon itself. It is a subtle, but important distinction....

Gotta agree with DR on this one.

There is nothing that defines a PSA itself as a weapon. A model that uses a PSA counts as firing a ranged weapon, but that alone does not define the PSA as a weapon.

That said, I doubt I'd argue if my Tyranid opponent tried to do it, though obviously only once per turn.

It carries the ranged weapon in its head rather than in its hands... don't discriminate against the poor xenos for being built differently to the rest of you.