Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Which codex provides the best assault army? The one the best at getting into combat quickly and just ripping things to shreds when there?

Blood Angels , with the right units, are very very nasty.

Khorne Daemons liekwise. Bloodcrushers and Bloodletters are pretty vicious.

Orkz! Orkz are made for fightin' and winnin'! Deem 'umies hide in der boxes, da panzzies are weak, and da bugs go splat on our trukks! You want da best, deen ya want da boyz!

Dark Eldar Wych cult armies also get a mention. They can be vicious.

I put my vote for Blood Angels or Tyranids.

Blood Angels have all the deep strike cheese and Assault troops, along with Furious Charge and Feel No Pain on all of their guys. Your Valmanway Dreadnought (for a lulzfest, especially against Orks anf other horde) can catch a ride in a Storm Raven with his Assault Marine posse to back him up. Mephiston when your opponent isn't ready for him.

Tyranids are nasty in close combat. Almost everybody has Fleet and there is much deepstrike and infiltrate to go around. Genestealers. Genestealers. Monstrous Creatures are always fun as well.

Kroot is also good (my friend annoyed me by infiltrating a maxed out kroot squad with shapers).

Nids: every time I get someone into CC, terrible things happen to the opposing squad.

Of course, sometimes I get shot on the way over.

Orkz.

Throw Boyz at a squad of Assault Terminators. Watch the Assault Terminators disappear.

Or maybe I just have cheating luck, don't know.

I'm going with Nids, I've never been in CC against them and had a happy ending. Guy I know a guy who loves to outflank his opponents with Genestealers and carnifex rush them from the front. Not to mention his apparent addiction to always having as HQ a Swarmlord and a Hive Tyrant.

So lets list the 'classic' cc armies:

Tyranids
Wych cult (Dark Eldar)
Chaos Daemons
Khorne Berserkers (Chaos Space Marines)
Blood angels
Wraith-Wing / Scarab-Wing (Necrons)
Orks
Kroot

The best of which is of course Stealer-spam

I have said this time and time again.20 genestaelers with a broodlord is unstoppable.No one has the I or attacks to stop all of them,and anyone who can do both this is going to have to compete withn the 40,60on the charge,S4,rending attacks and the broodlord's Hypnotising Gaze before hand,if the broodlords roll+Ld is greater than his opponents roll+LD,that modal(Lelith,Skarbrand,Metiphiston)is going to be not fighting.The n the 'lord can deal out 4,5 charging,S5,rending attacks.With an implant attack,this means that any modal that he rends is going to be ID.Scything talons allow the brood to reroll 1s to hit in combat,and the broodlord's acid blood means that any modla that wounds him must take a I test or suffer a wound,no armour saves.


Beat that unit in combat

Paladins standing in cover would destroy that unit, gene stealers biggest downfall is lack of grenades.

Purifiers with cleansing flare would also work out badly for the stealers.

Only if they charge a I have never had a problem with units in cover.Send in a termagant brood to hold them up and charge with the stealers.

And you still strike at initiative one as your assaulting a unit in cover without grenades, plus the effect of psykout grenades thanks to the brood lord and then the grey knight player will direct his attacks against the genestealers and kill them off before returning to slapping the termagaunts around.

I'm sure your next response will be "but I send in a swarm lord too".

I'm talking one unit of paladins or Purifiers of equal cost to your stealer unit that is sat in cover. It wins every time.

The penalty for Intiatve doesn't apply if the uint were locked in combat already,BRB.
Psykout greandes and Cleansing flame don't work on units that charge THEM.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And remember that even paladins have only so many attacks.You are fighting 50 guys with a maximum of 10.

weaker ones-30

and faster,stronger ones that hit on 3+ and the leader can negate 1 man before combat kicks off,and inflict instant death on the paladins on a 6,with no armour save.AND,if you wound the 'lord,the wounder must pass an initiative test of suffer a wound,no armour saves.


Also remember that Tyranids can take more monstrous creatures in a single force organization chart than any other

HQ
Swarmlord andHiveTyrant
or
2 Hive tyrant
Elites
3 zoanthropes/3 pyrovores/3 venomthropes with myectic spores
Troops
3 broods of 20 termagants in spores
3 tervigons
Fats Attack
3 harpies
Heavy support
3 broods of 3 carnifexes

That's 23 MCs in a legal army + 0 gants and 3 zoanthropes/venomthropes/pyrovores

Tyranids.

So ten Purifiers with falchions is 290 pts

20 gene stealers with talons and brood lord with talons, implant and acid blood is 398 pts

Cleansing flare kills on average 7 steelers before combat.

Purifiers in cover strike before the steelers killing 8 more on average.

This leaves a brood lord and four gene stealers to strike back.

Steamers kill on average 3 Purifiers and the brood lord 2 more.

The purifiers have won by 10, if in synapse the remaining unit dies to fearless armour saves and if not they flee from combat.

As for paladins 400pts gets me five paladins with feel no pain, all with Falchions and war gear to "stripe" the unit.

The paladins striking first as in cover kill on average 6 stealers.

Stealers kill 0 paladins inflicting 3 wounds.

Brood lord kills 0 paladins inflicting 0 wounds.

Gene stealers lose by 3 and break or lose 2 stealers to fearless.

Second round 11 stealers left and 1 brood lord, now fighting first due to higher initiative.

Gene stealers inflict 2 wounds killing 1 paladin

Brood lord kills 0 paladins inflicting 0 wounds

Paladins kill 4 gene stealers

Paladins win by 2 gene stealers hold or lose 1 to fearless

Third round there are 6 gene stealers and 1 brood lord

Gene stealers inflicting 0 wounds killing 0 paladins

Brood lord kills 0 paladins inflicting 0 wounds

Paladins kill 4 gene stealers

Gene stealers lose by 4 and break or lose both remaining gene stealers and wound the brood lord due to fearless.

Fourth round 1 wounded brood lord vs 4 wounded paladins

Brood lord inflicts 0 wounds

Paladins kill brood lord

So paladins win in the end having suffered six wounds and one casualty, all gene stealers are dead.

Charging into cover ruins gene stealer units, if these combats happened in the open it would be a different story, paladins should definately lose, however if the Purifiers had Halberds instead of Falchions, (making them cheaper) then they stand a fighting chance.

Purifiers in open with Halberds vs that unit of gene stealers

Cleansing flare kills 7 stealers.

Stealers and Purifiers fight simultaneously, brood lord init 1 due to psykout

Stealers kill 8 Purifiers

Purifiers kill 5 stealers

Brood lord kills 1 purifier

Purifiers win by three, 50/50 stealers break or lose 2 stealers to fearless.

Round two 5 stealers 1 brood lord vs 1 purifier

Stealers lose 2 to cleansing flame

Stealers kill last purifier

Purifier kills 0 stealers

Stealers win but there are only 3 stealers and a brood lord left after fighting a unit that is 150 points cheaper.

Point for point stealer unit vs equivalent pts of Purifiers ( which is 16 of them) Purifiers in the open win every time.

Deadshot wrote:I have said this time and time again.20 genestaelers with a broodlord is unstoppable.No one has the I or attacks to stop all of them,and anyone who can do both this is going to have to compete withn the 40,60on the charge,S4,rending attacks and the broodlord's Hypnotising Gaze before hand,if the broodlords roll+Ld is greater than his opponents roll+LD,that modal(Lelith,Skarbrand,Metiphiston)is going to be not fighting.The n the 'lord can deal out 4,5 charging,S5,rending attacks.With an implant attack,this means that any modal that he rends is going to be ID.Scything talons allow the brood to reroll 1s to hit in combat,and the broodlord's acid blood means that any modla that wounds him must take a I test or suffer a wound,no armour saves.


Beat that unit in combat

Paladins.

Cover or quicksilver, sanctuary, rad, blind, psychotokes, and hammerhand = you lose.

Missed the bit on psykout grenades but cleansing flame is every combat phase, even your opponents.

It's all well and good adding extra units in but point for point the Purifiers always win against horde units due to cleansing flare vs stealers and against monstrous creatures they just force weapon them down.

And for the points shown there a grey knight player can run

Hq Crowe

6 x ten paladins with four psycannons, Halberds, psybolts with passbacks

3 x riflemen with psybolts

3 x venerable riflemen with psybolts

3 x storm ravens with hvy bolter, assault cannon, hurricane bolters and Psybolt

Plus I'll still probably have points to spare

That's 24 x str 8 twin linked shots, 48 x str 8 rending, 36 x str 7 twin linked rending, 9 x str 6 twin linked, 6(12) x str 5 twin linked (rapid fire), 72 x str 5 shots per turn.

Thats backed up by cleansing flame all over the place and force weapons.

Tyrannids stack up awful against grey knights, it's odd that Grey knights are better against 'bids than demons.

Who would have thunk it?

Doing it as cheap as possible with no upgrades that nid list is approx 4000 pts the list i suggested is 3,555

Sir, I disagree with your assertion that the nastiest CC army has to be quick!

A pure ork green tide is probably the silliest most terrifying CC army one can face....

Ofcourse, the terror kinda smothers out 3 hours in while you are still waiting for the orks to deploy...

Orks and nids will be the best.

Pt for pt green tide probably has the best damage output due to mob sizes, low cost and multiple attacks.

Plus due to cheapness you can flood a board to prevent outmanoeuvre and hidden power fists swing combat your way every turn.

That and striped fully kitted out nob bikers get ridiculous

Multiply me and charge forward!

Those examples assume that the GKs are in cover,and you have sanctuary,rad blind,psyotroke greandes and that you pass your test for hammerhand.Psykout grenades have no effect if the unit is charged,and cover has no penalty if the unit isd locked in combat.

The MC example depends on whether or not you can wound.

Termagants with Tervigon support. 4+ to wound, +1 Str/Ini (to make them initiative 5) on the charge. Not only that, they're dirt cheap, and are spawned by the dozens often.

Can termagaunts lock a 10 man unit of Purifiers in combat? Let's work it out!

Purifiers standing in cover with Falchions, getting assaulted by thirty gants plus the twenty gene stealer unit. That's right 550 pts of nids vs 290pts of GK.

Cleansing flare kills twelve gants and seven genestealers.

Brood lord gets 5 attacks, 4 hits after re-rolls, 3 wounds, 2 dead Purifiers ( that's the optimistic rounding up version).

Gene stealers get 36 attacks, 30 hits after re-rolls, 5 rending, ten wounds killing 3 after saves.

So surprise, surprise twice as many points wins, ain't that strange however the Purifiers still kill 192 points back in the process.

Now we do the same but play around with toy box to even out the points. Let's chuck in a librarian with sanctuary, might of Titan and quicksilver with a stave.

That's got the points about even so let's go again.

Difficult terrain kills 5 gants and 4 genestealers.

Cleansing flare kills 11 gants and 6 stealers.

This leaves 14 gants, 9 stealers and 1 brood lord.

Purifiers strike at init 10, 30 attacks, 15 hits, 9 dead stealers and 1 wound on brood lord.

Lets say librarian failed his test so can't attack.

As before optimistic brood lord can kill two Purifiers.

Gants then get 28 attacks, 14 hits, 5 wounds, optimistically kills two Purifiers.

Both nids lose by 32 both units either break or if in synapse die to fearless.

So in even points GK win handsomely.

So as I said before, point for point GKs are better in combat than nids ;-)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As far as the termagaunt tervigon combo goes.

Tervigon with adrenal, toxin sacs is 180, the we give it the average 11 gants for free.

GK player gets 6 Purifiers with Falchions @ 174 pts

Cleansing flare kills 5 gants.

Gants fight initiative 5, 12 attacks, 6 hits, with poison and re-rolls 5 wounds (rounding up), kills 2 Purifiers rounding down.

Purifiers get 12 attacks, 8 hits, kill 6 (rounding up).

If I round down the one remaining gant dies to fearless saves.

Next turn Purifiers assault the tervigon.

GK fight first due to init 16 attacks, 10 hits, 1.5 wounds, pass leadership test, kill tervigon.

GK win losing only 2 Purifiers.

But you are still assuming they are in cover!Purifiers are 1 of 2 things
In a non-crowe list,they are elites and can't afford to be sitting in cover shooting or else they don't make up their points cost
In a Crowe army they are troops.This ahs the same problem as above,but it also means they be sitting because they need to move to capture objectives.

Bah. I'd still take my chances with Orks over GKs.

Drop those rhinos with lootas and hit the purifiers with Killa Kans. Boom goes the dynamite.

@dead shot both the termagaunt and gene stealer vs purifier and the gant and stealer vs purifier and librarian examples are in the open.

@monster rain 30 ork boys with klaw nob charging 7 Purifiers with Falchions (equal cost) beat the Purifiers regardless of cover. As far as the green fellows go might does indeed equal right!

Deadshot wrote:But you are still assuming they are in cover!Purifiers are 1 of 2 things
In a non-crowe list,they are elites and can't afford to be sitting in cover shooting or else they don't make up their points cost
In a Crowe army they are troops.This ahs the same problem as above,but it also means they be sitting because they need to move to capture objectives.

Errr? Purifiers can take two special weapons per 5 models. More often than not these are psycannons. Sitting in terrain shooting is *exactly* what they want to be doing, whilst simultaneously daring units w/out grenades to charge at them. Your 'Nids get stomped by Purifiers, plain and simple.

L. Wrex

EDIT: And for what it's worth, Inquisitorial Henchmen can be the most points-efficient deathstar in the game. Xenos Inq w/ rad and psychotroke grenades plus psyker lvl 1 (hammerhand) in a unit of 7 Death Cult Assassins and 4 Crusaders is 250pts. That's (on the charge) 28 WS5, I6 power weapon attacks with you at T3 and me at S5 (should HH go off) plus 5 force weapon attacks + 8 more power weapon attacks that also have 3++ saves in case anything is left alive after the DCA's get done. That's also not taking account psychotroke effects.