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Hi all, short time lurker, first time poster. First I want to say thanks to everyone for all the awesome posts on here. Cypher's strategy stickies are amazing, awesome work. I used to be a battlestorm player and I had over 1500 Ral Partha miniatures back before I came to China, but I have virtually no experience whatsoever with Warhammer. A good friend of mine is a warhammer player with a Dark Elf army and is somewhat experienced from what I understand. I'm going to buy a bretonnians army to play against him, and since we're in China, most likely it'll just be the two of us for a while if not forever lol so I need a bretonnian list that won't be useless against his DEs. If it helps, this is what he has so far:

16 repeater crossbowmen
20 corsairs
10 executioners
10 black guard
reaper bolt thrower
hydra
10 cold one knights
assassin
sorceress x2
dreadlord (maybe mounted)
Lokhir Felhart

Of course he can always get more stuff later.

All I've committed to so far is the Bretonnian Battalion box. It seems like everything in there should be somewhat useful. I was also thinking of getting some trebs and a magic user or two... do trebs fill a much different role than archers, or is one clearly a better choice than the other for ranged? How much magic do I need to buy? How much more stuff do I need to buy to get to 1500 points, 2000 points, 2500 points? What kind of stuff should be emphasizing against DEs? In the game itself what kind of strategies are most viable against DEs?

Thanks in advance for any advice I can get. I'm starting from almost no knowledge, and nothing first-hand, so I really appreciate anything that will save me wasting money on useless units or prevent me from feeling too hopeless once the battle is joined.

Oh, you are in for a steep learning curve.

Bretonnians can beat Dark Elves...but it is not easy. The new rules have made Brets very much a finesse army, and no matter how well you are doing, you are one mistake away from disaster. Combine that with a newbie vs. an experienced player... Bret Knights are great in close combat, the men-at-arms not so much - although in their case, quantity can be a quality all it's own.

Dark Elves, on the other hand, are a very very strong army. Excellent in close combat, very strong magic, decent shooting, very good to excellent in manuever depending on the build. While they are also a finesse army, they are much easier to win with overall.

The good news for you is that DE are pretty soft and squishy overall, so your troops should hold their own in close combat, PROVIDING you do it on your terms rather than his. You should never engage his units one-on-one. Take advantage of the narrow frontage of the Lance Formation to hit his units with multiples of yours.

Be aware that his Knights are every bit as good as your core knights, and there are a couple of builds that make them as nasty as your Grail Knights. Also bear in mind that his Executioners are very bad news for your Knights S6 killing blow will chop knights down left-and-right. Shove a big block of footmen at them when they show up.

Trebuchets and archers fill different roles. The big S5 template of the treb can decimate whole units at once, and the S10 center hit threatens even dragons. What it does to T3 elves is positively hiddeous. The archers, on the other hand, provide fire support to weaken enemy units before the Knights go in to finish the job.

Magically, he will be ths stronger. However, you can counteract some of this with your caster's Magic Resistance and the availabilty of the Silver Mirror. With a Dispel Scroll it provides pretty good magic defense, and if you wait to use it until after a miscast has knocked a wound or two off a caster, you can get a surprise kill in his magic phase. Do it once and he'll have to be more cautious with his magic in the future.


But after all is said and done, this is going to be a struggle. It's not a favorable matchup for the Brets. But that just makes the wins all the sweeter.

Haha awesome, sounds like I'm in for a shellacking rofl

So I take it you are advocating a pretty well-rounded army consisting of knights, men-at-arms, archers, trebs, magic, in roughly equal measure? Are pegasus knights good?

Yea, oddly enough i think the more rounded a bretonnian army is the more competitive it becomes. However it is a steep learning curve as Vulcan said. Read through the forums on this page for some really great advice. http://www.roundtable-bretonnia.org/

Pegasus Knights are an interesting unit. i always take the three that i have for warmachine hunting and annoyance. The opponent usually spends more time then he should trying to kill them and while they are expensive they are my major throw away unit. different people have different opinions on this. You'll probably have to make up your own mind, but keep in mind that its our only real warmachine hunter.

Take one big unit of men at arms and then the rest knights, don't take the same amount (in points) of men at arms as knights. The men at arms are only good for tying up units.

I agree with everyone else.

Knights of the realm are a good core choice 1 unit of knights errant with the errantry banner.

Archers are soo terrible from when I have played against brets, and I mean soooooo bad. I mean ok shooting WoC warriors is harsh but 20 archers killing 2 marauders at long range and 3 with stand and shoot. Anyways ya they not too great.

Trebs are a must so cheap and hit hard jsut make sure your scatter dice likes you.

Peg knights can be effective but ya they are not that great by them selves they need to multi charge.

Thanks so much guys, cowpow I'd imagine the archers are a bit better against elves than against WoC because of the elves' lower toughness? Also dark elves don't usually go with shields, right? So archers you'd think would be more effective against guys without shields too. I don't really know though, just ignorant assumptions =[

Hopefully my friend takes it easy on my poor Brets until a new bret book comes out and evens the score a little. Fingers crossed on that count.

I have seen it archers are really bad really really bad bs 3 at long range meaning you hit on 5s plus modifiers and str 3 is kind of bad.

So you seem to be saying archers are crap, don't waste my money... is there even any point to fielding the archers from the battalion box?

Hautamaki wrote:So you seem to be saying archers are crap, don't waste my money... is there even any point to fielding the archers from the battalion box?

I've seen the other side of the archers.
6 points each, 30" range. 300 points gives you 50 shots a turn. S3 is pretty crappy, but it's all about the volume. That's enough volume to take care of the smaller faster units that dark elves love, and lets you cover your deployment zone to keep pesky shades from sneaking in too close.

-Matt

Hmm thanks, I was hoping that archers could at least pull their weight against DE so that's good to hear.

I would use them as space fillers for M@A.

Also Dont let mindrazor through or you will die super fast the only time it is acceptable is if it goes off with IF.

What's IF?

Irresistable force, if two 6`s are roled when casting you cannot dispell it and they suffer a miscast.

I agree with HawaiiMatt - Archers really are very useful especially when you give them the flaming upgrade. Oh that hydra of yours has regen...not any more. Basically shoot the hydra with peasants then hit it with a trebuchet.

Let's see, specific Anti-DE tactica...

Trebuchets are a must. Take two. Of course, this is good advice anytime.

Archers are good at taking down his small maneuver units - shades, harpies, and small units of dark riders. 20 shots should reduce them to an ignorable level. Another volley will net you the VP. All things being equal (positioning, other available resources, etc.), go after the shades first. But the archer's priority target is his hydra! Take the braziers on the archers, lob a volley at his hydra to negate its regen, then squish it with a rock from your trebs. You seriously DO NOT want to face that monster in close combat.

Next priority target for the trebs is Executioners - they are the elves with the greatswords. They have killing blow. After that is the spearman block the soceress is sacrificing for power dice. After that is the largest available infantry block. The more bodies you remove at range, the less you have to wade through.

Use men-at-arms to pin down his units, then charge the knights in, on the flanks wherever possible.

Pegaus Knights are great warmachine hunters. Reaper Bolt Throwers are kinda meh in the new rules. However, a shot down the lenght of a Lance might kill a bunch of knights, so the Pegasus Knights might want to start there. After that, rear-charge a convienent combat.

Mounted Yeomen can also be useful. Send them hunting the small maneuver units as well, help clean them out so the archer can work on other targets. They'll die, so don't spend a lot on any single unit, but if the maneuver units waste time (and bodies) killing Yeomen rather than Knights (or Treb crews) you come out ahead.

The Grail Reliquae is rarely used, because of the expense. However, it is stubborn to the last man so it might make a good tarpit... so long as some knights (or better yet your General) are around to loan their leadership.

Questing Knights have little use against DE. Grail Knights might be useful for hunting monsters or as a Virtue of Heroism character bunker. But in general you will get the most milage out of Knights of the Realm, maybe on unit Knights-Errant with the Errantry Banner (KE can also monster hunt, since they are immune to psychology when they charge).

Thanks a bunch Vulcan that's all really helpful!

No problem, and good luck!

This is a matchup I can really be interested in, since I play both armies!

The defensive stakes the bowmen come with, make your bowmen harder to hit, and can be annoying for any cavalry charges,
'I'm going to charge you bowmen with my cheap cavalry unit, cause the bowmen suck I am going to win this combat'
'I stand and shoot, after that you take a dangerous terrain test, and you are at -1 to hit for this turn, enjoy!'
^^
plus they make great shields for the Trebs due to the above

Are you allowed to put stakes in front of trebs? Or do you mean use the archer units as treb sheilds?

Archers as treb shields

No what you'd do is line you archers up in front of the trebs say two ranks of 15, and therefore protect the trebs (hopefully) from getting charged from the front.

Not a bretonian player yet, but reading the book I reckon archers with the stakes and brazier might have a place, though many advocate skirmishing archers, and they have their place too.

A level 4 mage seems to be a must have, for magic defense and also decent access to the rulebook magic lores, which are very powerful.

Edit: Sorry, Dukebadham posted before me and it looks like I am disagreeing with him- I'm not, I'm agreeing

The latter Hautamaki. The soundest advice I can give has been stated though, use the archers to remove hydra regen, he will kill a unit of knights if you don't have the lord with heroic killing blow, or charge him with banner of eternal flame. Other than that, lore of beasts is pretty choice on brets, and life is great all around. Recomend a lvl 1 or 2 with beasts and a dispell scroll, and a prophetess with life. Sig spell + M@A with Halbreds = dead elves. Given the lady save with the caster there (can't remember how), and they can actually stand up to a lot of things you wouldn't expect. Like execs.

Also, fast cavalry are used to take out war machines, probably 10 of them. But charging a unit of 30 archers in two ranks, means 30 shots, then dangerous terrain tests for whats left and then combat, that can reduce the unit of fast cav to almost negligible size. If they charge the warmachine that means easy pickings for the crew


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Give the prophetess the lore of heavens, the first spell is awesome for brets, the spell allows you to re-roll ones when rolling to hit, wound and friendly AS
If you charge the DE, you will be wounding on 2+ with the knights, so you re-roll all your fail to wound rolls
DE are S3, so your AS is 2+ against their core in CC, re-roll failed AS please!
and the re-roll for hit is handy in getting that extra hit
plus it is cast on a 6+, so your level 4 prophetess only needs to roll one die,
the highest casting value in the lore is 15+ so you don't need to roll that many dice

Is archer range sufficient to burn the hydra while protecting the trebs at the same time?

archers have a range of 30" so have long enough range, plus they are cheap so you can have a lot of them, to remove the regeneration, you only need to cause one wound, then he has no Regeneration for either the turn or the phase, I can't remember?

Phase, but a treb shot usually handles him from there. I've lost more hydras to trebs than dwarf cannons lol.

Strength 10 and D6 wound would do that to you

Two units of 20 archers can deploy at slight angles and create a pocket just big enough for a trebuchet. That makes getting anything in to attack it pretty difficult, without dealing with the archers first.

On the down side, a DE Unkillable Dread on a Dark Peggie can probably manage it unless you have some terrain in there to make the space tolerances tighter. And 40 shots from the archers... well, he'll charge from beyond 15", so you'll only get 13.3 hits, 6.6 wounds, 1.1 will get through armor, and his ward save will make it .6 wounds on the average. Although I'll grant you that is a better 'per round' result than nearly anything else I've seen...

Run a hoard of archers, 50 will work for this. Give them flaming attacks and use them to target priority hydras then witches, then repeating crossbowmen. Run 1 KOTR unit and 1 KE unit with the errantry banner. Run a few hoards of 50 pesants with halberds (3-4). That is all you will need for a basic game. The only real competitive bretonnian army is the pesant army. I have 8000 points now and i have won a couple local tournements with them so i like to think i know what i am talking about. If you have any questions let me know.

Of course, that assumes you like playing a Bret army as if it were an Empire or Skaven army, without their neat toys and using only one of the Bret's neat toys.

Tourney play isn't everything. From my point of view, it actually counts for very little. And if I was going to run an army with lots of cheap gribblies, I'll bring my Skaven instead, thank you. They do it MUCH better than the Brets.