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As a former sports shooter I have no problems with gun ownership BUT I do think you should have to belong to a club and should be required to have a secure (ie bolted to the ground) gun safe.
However there is no reason to let the general population have access to hand guns and any country that does allow hand gun ownership should have mandatory and regular courses on gun safety.
My biggest fear if I was being held up at gunpoint is some dumb rambo trying to intervine and getting me shot due to his own inept use of the weapon.
Damn I cant wait to the GW legal team codex comes out now there is a dex that will conquer all.
Jubear wrote:
My biggest fear if I was being held up at gunpoint is some dumb rambo trying to intervine and getting me shot due to his own inept use of the weapon.
Seriously, that would be your biggest fear? You fear some guy that may or may not be there and may or may not have a gun which he may or may not be proficient with rather than the violent thug that IS there, pointing a gun at you.
My guess is you have never had someone with bad intent actually threaten you with a gun.
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
Jubear wrote:
My biggest fear if I was being held up at gunpoint is some dumb rambo trying to intervine and getting me shot due to his own inept use of the weapon.
Seriously, that would be your biggest fear? You fear some guy that may or may not be there and may or may not have a gun which he may or may not be proficient with rather than the violent thug that IS there, pointing a gun at you.
My guess is you have never had someone with bad intent actually threaten you with a gun.
Nope because I live in oz and its nigh impossible to get a hand gun unless you need it for work (and funnily enough this leads to fairly minimal gun crime) And if someone did stick a gun in my face I think compliance is more likely to get me out alive then some unskilled idiot trying to play at being a hero. You may see that as weak and if you do then that is fine but I prefer my own countries system when it come to handguns. The idea of untrained people carrying around handguns is frankly scary, I am not anti gun at all if you someone enjoys firearms as a hobby and wants to spend some time at the range then I am all for it but I think its just common sense to limit the amount of easily concealed weapons in the hands of the general populace.
I have seen enough fights at the pub to understand that folk do stupid things in the heat of the moment and I would rather see to guys just have a good old fashioned brawl then someone getting shot over a spilled beer.
Damn I cant wait to the GW legal team codex comes out now there is a dex that will conquer all.
Jubear wrote:As a former sports shooter I have no problems with gun ownership BUT I do think you should have to belong to a club and should be required to have a secure (ie bolted to the ground) gun safe.
However there is no reason to let the general population have access to hand guns and any country that does allow hand gun ownership should have mandatory and regular courses on gun safety.
My biggest fear if I was being held up at gunpoint is some dumb rambo trying to intervine and getting me shot due to his own inept use of the weapon.
Really thats your biggest fear? I would think being shot by the robber would be a much more immediate fear.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Jubear wrote: My biggest fear if I was being held up at gunpoint is some dumb rambo trying to intervine and getting me shot due to his own inept use of the weapon.
Really thats your biggest fear? I would think being shot by the robber would be a much more immediate fear.
Obviously a guy using a gun to commit crimes isn't a real threat to his safety.
Maybe where he is from criminals take gun safety course to be authorized by the Muggers Union to use firearms as they ply their trade? You know, they types of courses that concealed carry folks take here in the states.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/18 12:56:59
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
Jubear wrote:As a former sports shooter I have no problems with gun ownership BUT I do think you should have to belong to a club and should be required to have a secure (ie bolted to the ground) gun safe.
However there is no reason to let the general population have access to hand guns and any country that does allow hand gun ownership should have mandatory and regular courses on gun safety.
My biggest fear if I was being held up at gunpoint is some dumb rambo trying to intervine and getting me shot due to his own inept use of the weapon.
Really thats your biggest fear? I would think being shot by the robber would be a much more immediate fear.
Yes it is because its going to escalate the situation if a mugger wants my wallet and hes got a gun pointed at me he can have it. Its not that hard to cancel credit cards and i do not carry around my wages in cash....What I dont want is someone who has no training turning an inconvenience into a potentially lethal situation that could get myself my partner or my friends and family killed.
Besides if someone is threatening me with a pistol they are probably within a few feet of me is it that unreasonable that I do not trust a complete stranger to take a shot when I am within a few feet of his target? Also I do not see how i could get a gun out of a holster if someone has already got the drop on me without forcing them to shoot.
Damn I cant wait to the GW legal team codex comes out now there is a dex that will conquer all.
Jubear wrote:As a former sports shooter I have no problems with gun ownership BUT I do think you should have to belong to a club and should be required to have a secure (ie bolted to the ground) gun safe.
However there is no reason to let the general population have access to hand guns and any country that does allow hand gun ownership should have mandatory and regular courses on gun safety.
My biggest fear if I was being held up at gunpoint is some dumb rambo trying to intervine and getting me shot due to his own inept use of the weapon.
Really thats your biggest fear? I would think being shot by the robber would be a much more immediate fear.
Yes it is because its going to escalate the situation if a mugger wants my wallet and hes got a gun pointed at me he can have it. Its not that hard to cancel credit cards and i do not carry around my wages in cash....What I dont want is someone who has no training turning an inconvenience into a potentially lethal situation that could get myself my partner or my friends and family killed.
Besides if someone is threatening me with a pistol they are probably within a few feet of me is it that unreasonable that I do not trust a complete stranger to take a shot when I am within a few feet of his target? Also I do not see how i could get a gun out of a holster if someone has already got the drop on me without forcing them to shoot.
You haven't thought this out have you. Losing your wallet is the littlest thing. How about a good pistol whipping? How about the robber shoots you in the face and rapes your wife?
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Nor have you, Is the rapist going to walk up to me with a big sign declaring his intent? How am I going to get a weapon out in time if he already has the drop on me?
What if the "hero" misses and shoots my partner or myself and the most importent point of all why are you putting yourself in the situation in the first place?
What ghetto ass areas are you folk living in where you live in constant fear all the time?
Maybe I dont get it because I dont live in fear 24/7 nor do I feel a giant need to play hero or put folk at risk with my own actions.
And besides if it was my X that they were trying to rape I am nearlly 95% sure that her vagina has teeth that she can deploy at will.
Damn I cant wait to the GW legal team codex comes out now there is a dex that will conquer all.
Jubear wrote:Nor have you, Is the rapist going to walk up to me with a big sign declaring his intent? How am I going to get a weapon out in time if he already has the drop on me?
Then you're an idiot? Be aware of your surroundings.
What if the "hero" misses and shoots my partner or myself and the most importent point of all why are you putting yourself in the situation in the first place?
You seem to keep harping on this "play hero thing" when you and only you are talking about it.
What ghetto ass areas are you folk living in where you live in constant fear all the time?
Mass shooting have occurred in churches, hospitals, banks, and restaraunts. Indeed Texas CHL laws were first started by survivors of the cafeteria mass killing here. PLus we have that whole open border / Mexico war going on.
Maybe I dont get it because I dont live in fear 24/7 nor do I feel a giant need to play hero or put folk at risk with my own actions.
I don't either. I also don't worry 24/7 about fires, floods, or auto wrecks, yet I still have insurance for those and escape plans for fire.
And besides if it was my X that they were trying to rape I am nearlly 95% sure that her vagina has teeth that she can deploy at will.
Your X was a faery? Impressive.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Jubear wrote:As a former sports shooter I have no problems with gun ownership BUT I do think you should have to belong to a club and should be required to have a secure (ie bolted to the ground) gun safe.
Feth gun clubs. Just make people take and pass gun safety and responsibility classes.
As an aside, part of self defense classes for women is being aware of your surroundings and not going in to situations where you can be suddenly jumped like Jubear suggests.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/18 14:23:28
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Jubear wrote:Maybe I dont get it because I dont live in fear 24/7 nor do I feel a giant need to play hero or put folk at risk with my own actions.
Do you have a problem with police officers being armed and patrolling the streets to reduce crime?
There is a world of difference between a trained police officer and some random person who has no training. Marksmanship is a perishable skill that requires constant training to maintain, you need the use of that weapon to be a trained reflex through muscle memory etc. If you read my earlier post you will see I advocated mandatory and regular classes on the subject should be part of the conditions of owning a hand gun. I cant stress enough I am in no way arguing Americans rights to bear arms it is obviously part of your collective culture and in some ways I agree with it (we havent been able to own anything but bot action rifles/shotguns etc in Oz for years and it would be nice not to have to reload every fething shot at the range) My argument is that a hand gun is not a toy and part of responsible ownership requires proficiency with the weapon from both a accuracy point of view and safety.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frazzled wrote:
Jubear wrote:Nor have you, Is the rapist going to walk up to me with a big sign declaring his intent? How am I going to get a weapon out in time if he already has the drop on me?
Then you're an idiot? Be aware of your surroundings.
What if the "hero" misses and shoots my partner or myself and the most importent point of all why are you putting yourself in the situation in the first place?
You seem to keep harping on this "play hero thing" when you and only you are talking about it.
What ghetto ass areas are you folk living in where you live in constant fear all the time?
Mass shooting have occurred in churches, hospitals, banks, and restaraunts. Indeed Texas CHL laws were first started by survivors of the cafeteria mass killing here. PLus we have that whole open border / Mexico war going on.
Maybe I dont get it because I dont live in fear 24/7 nor do I feel a giant need to play hero or put folk at risk with my own actions.
I don't either. I also don't worry 24/7 about fires, floods, or auto wrecks, yet I still have insurance for those and escape plans for fire.
And besides if it was my X that they were trying to rape I am nearlly 95% sure that her vagina has teeth that she can deploy at will.
Your X was a faery? Impressive.
Did I not advocate in my post that you should not be putting your self in these type of situations?
The hero reference is regarding fok wanting to try and help by drawing weapons but not having the skill sets to be effective in rendering aid.
Not going to touch the mass shooting thing...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/18 14:40:45
Damn I cant wait to the GW legal team codex comes out now there is a dex that will conquer all.
Having shot at the same club as trained police officers came to qualify I'd be wary of using them as an example of someone that know how to handle a gun.
It might just be a localized issue, police officers in other parts of the world might have better shooting skills (and grasp of the four rules).
My uninformed guess is that most police officers are more concerned with the other bazillion things they need to know in their daily work. And the gun is more of a tool they seldom use, so just barely passing qualifying is OK. Especially when training budgets and time don't allow for keeping your proficeincy above the level of "just passing the grade".
pixelpusher wrote:Having shot at the same club as trained police officers came to qualify I'd be wary of using them as an example of someone that know how to handle a gun.
It might just be a localized issue, police officers in other parts of the world might have better shooting skills (and grasp of the four rules).
My uninformed guess is that most police officers are more concerned with the other bazillion things they need to know in their daily work. And the gun is more of a tool they seldom use, so just barely passing qualifying is OK. Especially when training budgets and time don't allow for keeping your proficeincy above the level of "just passing the grade".
Most cops can't shoot for squat and only care when they have to pass their qualifiers. Some departments have higher standards, but many don't. For obvious reasons their focus is not on shooting but on the more important aspects of policing.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
pixelpusher wrote:Having shot at the same club as trained police officers came to qualify I'd be wary of using them as an example of someone that know how to handle a gun.
It might just be a localized issue, police officers in other parts of the world might have better shooting skills (and grasp of the four rules).
My uninformed guess is that most police officers are more concerned with the other bazillion things they need to know in their daily work. And the gun is more of a tool they seldom use, so just barely passing qualifying is OK. Especially when training budgets and time don't allow for keeping your proficeincy above the level of "just passing the grade".
Really that surprises me, I figured sweedens mandatory military service would result in a population with quite high standards of marksmanship. Still you guys have the highest
(or close to it) rate of gun ownership on earth and almost no gun related crime I think that speaks volumes for what a little training can do.
Damn I cant wait to the GW legal team codex comes out now there is a dex that will conquer all.
Our formerly (we finally did away with a conscript army) mandatory military service never really made people that proficient in gun use. Too much else that matters when being in the military. And besides, after 10+ years you'd still suck if you didnt keep your skills honed and up to date.
Gun related crimes are rising here as well, and it's not rising due to legally obtained weapons. Unless I somehow missed that you can now get licenses for AK-clones. I might get back into shooting just because of that!
pixelpusher wrote:Our formerly (we finally did away with a conscript army) mandatory military service never really made people that proficient in gun use. Too much else that matters when being in the military. And besides, after 10+ years you'd still suck if you didnt keep your skills honed and up to date.
Gun related crimes are rising here as well, and it's not rising due to legally obtained weapons. Unless I somehow missed that you can now get licenses for AK-clones. I might get back into shooting just because of that!
Agreed it takes regular practice to maintain any kind of proficiency my groupings would be terrabad now
I guess sweeden can always rely on the fact that no sane country would want to interfere with the supply of sweedish woman.
Damn I cant wait to the GW legal team codex comes out now there is a dex that will conquer all.
Jubear wrote:
And if someone did stick a gun in my face I think compliance is more likely to get me out alive then some unskilled idiot trying to play at being a hero.
My best friend complied. He got shot anyway. He lived, but compliance didn't help him. After the muggers got what they wanted from him, they shot him anyway. That's what compliance gets you.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And one more thing
Jubear wrote:
There is a world of difference between a trained police officer and some random person who has no training.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/18 15:50:18
Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.
Jubear wrote:And if someone did stick a gun in my face I think compliance is more likely to get me out alive then some unskilled idiot trying to play at being a hero.
My best friend complied. He got shot anyway. He lived, but compliance didn't help him. After the muggers got what they wanted from him, they shot him anyway. That's what compliance gets you.
Indeed. These are criminals. By definition,they are donkey-caves.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Ever go to Camden, New Jeresy? Yeah, not only were they one of the highest ranked in crime, but they also just laid off half their police force. And slightly OT, I'm surprised on how many of us live in southeastern PA. Go team go
feeder wrote: Frazz's mind is like a wiener dog in a rabbit warren. Dark, twisting tunnels, and full of the certainty that just around the next bend will be the quarry he seeks.
Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:Ever go to Camden, New Jeresy? Yeah, not only were they one of the highest ranked in crime, but they also just laid off half their police force.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Jubear wrote:
And if someone did stick a gun in my face I think compliance is more likely to get me out alive then some unskilled idiot trying to play at being a hero.
My best friend complied. He got shot anyway. He lived, but compliance didn't help him. After the muggers got what they wanted from him, they shot him anyway. That's what compliance gets you.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And one more thing
Jubear wrote:
There is a world of difference between a trained police officer and some random person who has no training.
My best friend was held up at gun point.
The mugger ordered him to hand over his wallet. He complied. He didn't get shot. The mugger ran off. My friend had to cancel his bank cards and buy a new wallet.
That's what compliance gets you.
Nice save by that police man.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/18 16:48:16
Jubear wrote:
And if someone did stick a gun in my face I think compliance is more likely to get me out alive then some unskilled idiot trying to play at being a hero.
My best friend complied. He got shot anyway. He lived, but compliance didn't help him. After the muggers got what they wanted from him, they shot him anyway. That's what compliance gets you.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And one more thing
Jubear wrote:
There is a world of difference between a trained police officer and some random person who has no training.
My best friend was held up at gun point.
The mugger ordered him to hand over his wallet. He complied. He didn't get shot. The mugger ran off. My friend had to cancel his bank cards and buy a new wallet.
That's what compliance got him.
I changed your quote to make it more accurate. Doesn't always work out that way.
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
Jubear wrote:
And if someone did stick a gun in my face I think compliance is more likely to get me out alive then some unskilled idiot trying to play at being a hero.
My best friend complied. He got shot anyway. He lived, but compliance didn't help him. After the muggers got what they wanted from him, they shot him anyway. That's what compliance gets you.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And one more thing
Jubear wrote:
There is a world of difference between a trained police officer and some random person who has no training.
My best friend was held up at gun point.
The mugger ordered him to hand over his wallet. He complied. He didn't get shot. The mugger ran off. My friend had to cancel his bank cards and buy a new wallet.
That's what compliance gets you.
Nice save by that police man.
In those situations compliance is a myth. The criminal has pretty much already made up his mind on if he's gonna shoot you either way. Being a hero just ensures that he's gonna try to go for it
feeder wrote: Frazz's mind is like a wiener dog in a rabbit warren. Dark, twisting tunnels, and full of the certainty that just around the next bend will be the quarry he seeks.
In those situations compliance is a myth. The criminal has pretty much already made up his mind on if he's gonna shoot you either way. Being a hero just ensures that he's gonna try to go for it
According to whatever research Richard Poe did for his book, "Seven Myths of Gun Control" he basically flat out refutes this stating in essence, that unless the "criminal" is hopped up on drugs, he is actually most likely more afraid of whats going on than you are. Sure there are all sorts of verbal techniques to diffuse the situation, but refusal to comply and not backing down in a non-threatening manner are actually your best bet.
In those situations compliance is a myth. The criminal has pretty much already made up his mind on if he's gonna shoot you either way. Being a hero just ensures that he's gonna try to go for it
According to whatever research Richard Poe did for his book, "Seven Myths of Gun Control" he basically flat out refutes this stating in essence, that unless the "criminal" is hopped up on drugs, he is actually most likely more afraid of whats going on than you are. Sure there are all sorts of verbal techniques to diffuse the situation, but refusal to comply and not backing down in a non-threatening manner are actually your best bet.
feeder wrote: Frazz's mind is like a wiener dog in a rabbit warren. Dark, twisting tunnels, and full of the certainty that just around the next bend will be the quarry he seeks.
Gun shop guy speaking again ( I only state that since Im unknown on this forum)
I agree with the Aussie Jubear, and as a guy that has been gangmuged, robbed at gun point and way too close to a drive by shooting I can say that if I had a handgun at the time I would have been powerless in most of the above situations. Then gangmug was the only one that a firearm could have helped as it was a garbage can lid did the job and obviously I got away and currently live a fine life.
The drive by was focused on the other side of the street and by the time I comprehended what was happening it was done, no warning to the events, no time for a split second preperation and if I had pulled a gun I probally would have gotten myself and worse some one else near me shot.
The robber was a situation that my arogance and ignorace led me into and if I used a fraction of common sense I would have just walked around the block and avoided the idiot.
Again gun owenership is good in my mind but knowing how to avoid a situation and keeping your head and sense during a crisis is a thousand times more valuable.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
1-i wrote:Again gun owenership is good in my mind but knowing how to avoid a situation and keeping your head and sense during a crisis is a thousand times more valuable.
Already beat you to it.
Melissia wrote:As an aside, part of self defense classes for women is being aware of your surroundings and not going in to situations where you can be suddenly jumped like Jubear suggests.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
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