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thenoobbomb wrote:You cant compare guns with condoms.

Tell that to an AIDs statistic. Yes you can, and the poster your referring to, actually did rather nicely.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jubear wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Jubear wrote:As a former sports shooter I have no problems with gun ownership BUT I do think you should have to belong to a club and should be required to have a secure (ie bolted to the ground) gun safe.

However there is no reason to let the general population have access to hand guns and any country that does allow hand gun ownership should have mandatory and regular courses on gun safety.

My biggest fear if I was being held up at gunpoint is some dumb rambo trying to intervine and getting me shot due to his own inept use of the weapon.

Really thats your biggest fear? I would think being shot by the robber would be a much more immediate fear.

Yes it is because its going to escalate the situation if a mugger wants my wallet and hes got a gun pointed at me he can have it. Its not that hard to cancel credit cards and i do not carry around my wages in cash....What I dont want is someone who has no training turning an inconvenience into a potentially lethal situation that could get myself my partner or my friends and family killed.

Besides if someone is threatening me with a pistol they are probably within a few feet of me is it that unreasonable that I do not trust a complete stranger to take a shot when I am within a few feet of his target? Also I do not see how i could get a gun out of a holster if someone has already got the drop on me without forcing them to shoot.

I can tell you, that yes you can actually get the drop on a criminal in this situation. My oldest brother was an armed security guard a couple years ago. His cruiser broke down so he used his personal car, because it was winter outside and cold. While sitting there in his car, a guy came up and knocked on his window with a gun. As my brother was getting out of his car, my brother positioned himself in such a way that the guy didnt see him pulling his gun. My brother quickly swapped the dudes gun and fired 3 shots into his stomach, putting him down immediately. Keep in mind, the criminals gun WAS loaded with a round in the chamber.

See here, in America, chances are pretty good, that if a criminal has a loaded weapon, your going to be shot. Whats the sense in leaving a witness behind to send you to jail? If it werent for him being armed, my brother probably would of been killed

@Melissa Sorry for not giving the credit due

@Austin, I may have had that same conversation in the last few months, damm Call of Duty.

KingCracker wrote:

thenoobbomb wrote:You cant compare guns with condoms.

Tell that to an AIDs statistic. Yes you can, and the poster your referring to, actually did rather nicely.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jubear wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Jubear wrote:As a former sports shooter I have no problems with gun ownership BUT I do think you should have to belong to a club and should be required to have a secure (ie bolted to the ground) gun safe.

However there is no reason to let the general population have access to hand guns and any country that does allow hand gun ownership should have mandatory and regular courses on gun safety.

My biggest fear if I was being held up at gunpoint is some dumb rambo trying to intervine and getting me shot due to his own inept use of the weapon.

Really thats your biggest fear? I would think being shot by the robber would be a much more immediate fear.

Yes it is because its going to escalate the situation if a mugger wants my wallet and hes got a gun pointed at me he can have it. Its not that hard to cancel credit cards and i do not carry around my wages in cash....What I dont want is someone who has no training turning an inconvenience into a potentially lethal situation that could get myself my partner or my friends and family killed.

Besides if someone is threatening me with a pistol they are probably within a few feet of me is it that unreasonable that I do not trust a complete stranger to take a shot when I am within a few feet of his target? Also I do not see how i could get a gun out of a holster if someone has already got the drop on me without forcing them to shoot.

I have no choice in the matter. We have a pseudo stalker situation, so its irrelevant if a maybe is involved. If said stalker appears its go time on instinct.



I can tell you, that yes you can actually get the drop on a criminal in this situation. My oldest brother was an armed security guard a couple years ago. His cruiser broke down so he used his personal car, because it was winter outside and cold. While sitting there in his car, a guy came up and knocked on his window with a gun. As my brother was getting out of his car, my brother positioned himself in such a way that the guy didnt see him pulling his gun. My brother quickly swapped the dudes gun and fired 3 shots into his stomach, putting him down immediately. Keep in mind, the criminals gun WAS loaded with a round in the chamber.

See here, in America, chances are pretty good, that if a criminal has a loaded weapon, your going to be shot. Whats the sense in leaving a witness behind to send you to jail? If it werent for him being armed, my brother probably would of been killed

That's why I said... don't hold back, don't fight fair. Hurt them so badly they won't ever hurt you again.

Cause criminals aren't gonna hold back on hurting you. They're criminals already after all...

Jeez I'm agreeing with Melissia again.

She does make a frightening amount of sense at times.


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The fundamentalist Christian brainwashig is working.

I can't fathom the minds of people who live in an environment where a random violent attack was perceived to be so commonplace that the only rational thing to do would be to arm yourself.
I mean it's seriously mal-ajusted. Seems strange that so many people are okay with it.

I can't fathom the minds of people who live in an environment where a random violent attack

You mean like Britain the king gak of random violent attacks? Yeah, I can't imagine either.

AustonT wrote:The fundamentalist Christian brainwashig is working.

Nah, my father is an atheist and my mother is non-practicing. I'm probably more religious than either of them, despite the fact that I don't claim any particular religion or sect.

Joey wrote:I can't fathom the minds of people who live in an environment where a random violent attack was perceived to be so commonplace that the only rational thing to do would be to arm yourself.
I mean it's seriously mal-ajusted. Seems strange that so many people are okay with it.

Let me put it like this, I have never gotten into a wreck yet I wear my seat belt all the time. Never been mugged/had a violent crime happen to me, however I still carry. The thing is that the Law Enforcement are NOT on every corner, and in many places response time is attrocious meaning that if someone wanted to commit a violent crime towards myself or those I care about they would have all the time in the world to do it. Now it is my opinion that you should only carry if you have the head for it. If you carry be aware that if you can resolve an issue peacefully e.g. mugging than do so, however if the criminal is intent on hurting yourself or others than you must make the decision to use your firearm.

Melissia wrote:

AustonT wrote:The fundamentalist Christian brainwashig is working.

Nah, my father is an atheist and my mother is non-practicing. I'm probably more religious than either of them, despite the fact that I don't claim any particular religion or sect.

Before I was mostly kidding, but now that you've agreed we can picket the abortion clinic together! Yay! Field Trip.

The thing is, you lot need to start living in the real world and and start dealing with what's most likely. Picking the worst possible scenario in order to illicit an emotional response doesn't make for a good argument, it makes you look childish.

I mean, im not going to pick everyone apart individually but come on.. muggers getting total compliance and then shooting you afterwards for kicks?! Or getting your wallet and then giving your wife a thorough raping afterwards?

And clearly most of you don't believe this nonsense. The politicians play the fear card but not the populous. I don't walk around the US and see fear etched into the faces of an eternally terrified society. I go round the bars and everyone is as friendly and welcoming as at home. It really doesn't marry up with the picture some of you attempt to paint to win your internet debates.

Short answer, a mugger is likely to take your stuff and run off. Not murder you out of malice or stop to finger your wife. Can we stick with what's not an exception to the rule?

The Aussie was spot on. Your less likely to die if the people around you don't have firearms.

mattyrm wrote: The thing is, you lot need to start living in the real world

I do. That's why I want to be prepared.

Melissia wrote:

mattyrm wrote: The thing is, you lot need to start living in the real world

I do. That's why I want to be prepared.

Yes mel but there is an equation to be made between practicality and preparation.

My Dad could have a heart attack, i don't carry adrenalin. A shoe lace could snap, i don't carry laces. My missus could get raped, i don't make her wear a chastity belt. My nephew could get killed by a pedo, I don't keep him on a chain in my house when he visits.

There are infinite possibilities for bad things to happen. But you do the math and come to a conclusion. As i said, im no hippy, if you want a firearm that's your call to make, but it's a fact that your more likely to die when your surrounded by guns, and im glad the UK isn't like the US on this issue even though i kinda want a machine gun in my bedroom.

Joey wrote:I can't fathom the minds of people who live in an environment where a random violent attack was perceived to be so commonplace that the only rational thing to do would be to arm yourself.
I mean it's seriously mal-ajusted. Seems strange that so many people are okay with it.

If you can be prepared, then why not be prepared? I don't have a constant fear of natural disasters either, but I do live in an area where Tornadoes and Winter Storms happen. I have an emergency prepardness kit in the garage for those situations. I carry a spare in the car to be prepared as well, and before I was married I carried condoms.

Guns are simply not a big deal in the US, and since we have laws that state "if you take this class, prove that you are able to safely use a handgun, and pass a pretty stringent background check, then you can be licensed to carry a gun on your person" people will choose to take advantage of it.

I don't go around telling people that they are stupid and irresponsible if they do not carry and are not prepared to defend their family if somebody attacks them or breaks into their home. People make a choice and have to decide for themselves if the risk of having a gun is greater than the risk of not having a gun. I do firmly believe that with owning a firearm comes great responsibility and I don't take gun ownership lightly. I see people with their young kids in the firing range, and I do not have a problem with that at all. Kids need to learn from an early age that death is permament, and that a gun is not a toy but a deadly weapon. If you make sure that kids are familiar with firearms and know about them, then you remove the curiosity that can get kids in trouble with firearms. I think that people who are not responsible with their weapons have no business owning them.

Can we stick with what's not an exception to the rule?

But it's cool to advocate total disarmament, or the banning of certain types of firearms because, well, there may be an exceptional situation? If one side of the argument is guilty of this, the other certainly isn't going to be dodging much.

I hate to say it, but firearm accidents, particularly resulting in a fatality are not the norm. Nor are people taking AK47s to school. Nor is some dude getting ticked off and blowing the head off the cashier for having a <CENSORED> attitude at the wal-mart that day.

None of these things (and similar.) are anywhere approaching "The Rule (TM)"....If it was, with the amount of (HOW many tens of millions again, BATFE?) gun owners in this country, we would all be dead, and the guns would be floating on their own accord across the borders to seek more victims.

mattyrm wrote:

Melissia wrote:

mattyrm wrote: The thing is, you lot need to start living in the real world

I do. That's why I want to be prepared.

Yes mel but there is an equation to be made between practicality and preparation.

My Dad could have a heart attack, i don't carry adrenalin. A shoe lace could snap, i don't carry laces. My missus could get raped, i don't make her wear a chastity belt. My nephew could get killed by a pedo, I don't keep him on a chain in my house when he visits.

1: No, but you do have a car to take him to a hospital, I assume?

I know I do, and I know wheret he closest hospitals are just in case I have to take one of my parents to them. I've had to just that twice in the past half-year (once for my grandmother, once for my father). I do not have the qualifications to procure and inject adrenaline in to my father, nor do I trust myself with needles (or like them particularly).

2: No, but you do (or do you?) have extra laces at home. I mean I do. A shoe is ruined without proper length laces after all, and despite the stereotype I don't have a massive collection-- too expensive and I have other things I need to buy. So an extra set of laces kept at home is perfectly valid preparation. Like having an extra coat-- I kept my old duster after getting my new one, jsut in case something bad happened to the new one.

3: No, but you do have her go to self defense classes at the very least, right? I did. And I want to be armed on top of that, because I don't trust my own martial arts skills, nor do I want to get in close to begin with and risk getting beat up. I also encourage my family to keep physically fit, too, though that is less successful probably.

And even if a chastity belt does its job perfectly, it won't prevent her from being raped. If a gun does its job perfectly, it will prevent this.

4: But you do watch him carefully and tell him not to talk to strangers, right? I talked my (older) nephew in to enrolling in to a karate class for self defense as well, which includes teaching him what NOT to do so he can avoid trouble.

mattyrm wrote:
The Aussie was spot on. Your less likely to die if the people around you don't have firearms.

Yes right.

There was a guy making a post on another gaming forum a while ago, and had posted pictures of a battle report. In one of the pics, below the overhang of his stomach there was a holstered pistol. In a gaming shop that almost certainly had children in it. Now the guy went off on one about how it was his right to carry a gun, and how he was highly trained and would wrestle to the ground anyone who tried to steal the gun off him (although looking at him, the only thing he had wrestled recently was the lid off a KFC family bucket). But if my kid was playing in that store it wouldn't matter if the guy was a Navy Seal, there still exists the potential for something to go wrong and when it does there are few things that can take a life as quickly or as easily (except maybe a bear or a tiger, which you wouldn't allow in a gaming store with children in it, even if it was muzzled).

Pacific wrote:

mattyrm wrote:
The Aussie was spot on. Your less likely to die if the people around you don't have firearms.

Yes right.

There was a guy making a post on another gaming forum a while ago, and had posted pictures of a battle report. In one of the pics, below the overhang of his stomach there was a holstered pistol. In a gaming shop that almost certainly had children in it. Now the guy went off on one about how it was his right to carry a gun, and how he was highly trained and would wrestle to the ground anyone who tried to steal the gun off him (although looking at him, the only thing he had wrestled recently was the lid off a KFC family bucket). But if my kid was playing in that store it wouldn't matter if the guy was a Navy Seal, there still exists the potential for something to go wrong and when it does there are few things that can take a life as quickly or as easily (except maybe a bear or a tiger, which you wouldn't allow in a gaming store with children in it, even if it was muzzled).

You would want to watch what city you lived in in the sates then. Anyplace that allows concealed carry may have armed folks out and about. Of course concealed means concealed, and if you don't conceal you can be busted for brandishing a weapon. Unless of course you are in a place with open carry.

Bottom line, it must suck to live your life in fear that some one may go nuts and have a weapon on them. I feel sorry for you and those like you.

Besides, just cause you don't see guns brandished around you doesn't mean people don't have them anyway.

CptJake wrote:

Pacific wrote:

mattyrm wrote:
The Aussie was spot on. Your less likely to die if the people around you don't have firearms.

Yes right.

There was a guy making a post on another gaming forum a while ago, and had posted pictures of a battle report. In one of the pics, below the overhang of his stomach there was a holstered pistol. In a gaming shop that almost certainly had children in it. Now the guy went off on one about how it was his right to carry a gun, and how he was highly trained and would wrestle to the ground anyone who tried to steal the gun off him (although looking at him, the only thing he had wrestled recently was the lid off a KFC family bucket). But if my kid was playing in that store it wouldn't matter if the guy was a Navy Seal, there still exists the potential for something to go wrong and when it does there are few things that can take a life as quickly or as easily (except maybe a bear or a tiger, which you wouldn't allow in a gaming store with children in it, even if it was muzzled).

You would want to watch what city you lived in in the sates then. Anyplace that allows concealed carry may have armed folks out and about. Of course concealed means concealed, and if you don't conceal you can be busted for brandishing a weapon. Unless of course you are in a place with open carry.

Bottom line, it must suck to live your life in fear that some one may go nuts and have a weapon on them. I feel sorry for you and those like you.

People over in Europe basically don't live in fear that someone may go nuts and have a weapon on them.

Maybe not all folks, but folks who make comments like

But if my kid was playing in that store it wouldn't matter if the guy was a Navy Seal, there still exists the potential for something to go wrong and when it does there are few things that can take a life as quickly or as easily (except maybe a bear or a tiger, which you wouldn't allow in a gaming store with children in it, even if it was muzzled).

Obviously do have some fear of that happening. And it sucks to live that way.

Joey wrote:I can't fathom the minds of people who live in an environment where a random violent attack was perceived to be so commonplace that the only rational thing to do would be to arm yourself.
I mean it's seriously mal-ajusted. Seems strange that so many people are okay with it.

You say that yet you still in Britain? Have you been to s shrink to deal with your mal adjustment?

Jeez, now I find myself agreeing with Matty

But he's right. When I was in New England, I visited towns and villages that were calm, peaceful and packed with friendly people, and the most serious crime was probably jaywalking. And yet, people had Mr Colt nestling in their hip pocket. When I asked why I wondered if they were still fearful of British invasion. Most replies cited constitutional rights, one or two said in case the government came, and bizarrely, one person mentioned terrorism. It was all friendly conversation, and no doubt some people like to go hunting, but it did get me wondering.
In comparison to travels in Switzerland, yeah, the Swiss have guns, but nobody ever made a fuss about in. Ditto Finland as well.

But, and it's a big but, it's not for me to comment on American society. I've seen everything from Carter's inauguration to Bob Dole trying to crack jokes. No More!!!

CptJake wrote:

Obviously do have some fear of that happening. And it sucks to live that way.

We will have to agree to disagree. I feel no fear, neither in the US or the UK, and ive lived in both.

Maybe one day I will get raped and I will walk around in perpetual fear, but until that time, im dandy. It's statistically unlikely that I will be attacked at gunpoint If I dont do stupid gak. There will always be easier marks than me to pick on, so no, there aint no fear here. Im a pretty arrogant and confident bloke, im convicned nobody will look at me and think "target" so I walk around safe in the knowledge that because im not an idiot I wont be a target, statistics (getting attacked by strangers at gun point in civilian settings is rare)and common sense tells me ive got no reason to be afraid. ( a thug will pick on someone older slower, fatter and stupider)

If you lot want to justify your argument by basically boiling it down to "you must be gaking yourself all the time then!" and that's good enough for you, your welcome to it, but its a laughable thing to say. Basically, its a gak argument and Im convicned that you all know it.

Read that.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17922-carrying-a-gun-increases-risk-of-getting-shot-and-killed.html

If you carry a gun your nearly 5 times more likely to get shot. And I didnt need to google it to work that one out, because its common sense.

If you have a gun your more likely to get involved when you dont need to. (witness a guy pull a gun on another guy outside Ralphs, and get involved even though you dont know gak about the situation) In that case, I simply briskly walk in the other direction. = Your more likely to get shot than me.

If you hesitate, your more likely to get shot. Normal humans who havent shot people before sometimes do. They are convinced they are a tough guy till it actually happens and your staring into someones eyes and your going to splatter them across the sidewalk, you can hesistate and wind up getting slotted. = Your more likely to get slotted.

A mugger stops me in an alley and asks for my wallet, im not carrying. I give him it hold my hands up and say "relax, stay calm" 99 times out of 100 he hot foots it with his loot. If your carrying a gun yourself, you might think your a tough guy and go for it, win or lose = Your more likely to get shot than me.

An unarmed burglar is in your house, but you have a gun in your dresser and he finds it and picks it up in a panic because you interrupt him halfway through. = Your more likely to get shot than me.

I could give 100 gak incidents but im not going to bore you, the fact remains the same. If there are guns around, you are more likely to get shot.

With their gun, with your gun, with a gun they found in a dumpster, it makes not a jot of difference. Having guns all over the place increasaes your likelyhood of getting shot.

And in reply to SOFDC, I am NOT arguing for total disarmament! I said ten pages ago that it is impossible. Your stuck with them. And being a green beret, I like guns, and I have no issue with owning them. My argument is very simply boiled down to two points.

1. I am far less likely to get shot in the UK than the US and this is a good thing.

2. People in nations like France and the UK dont walk the streets in perpetual fear, and I would argue that clearly it is more frightening for a citizen in the US because you are far more likely to bump into an irate individual armed with a firearm during your lifetime.

Those two points are what you are all arguing against with me, not total disarmament, because only a moron would advocate attempting to carry out an impossible task. Im not saying that, im merely saying that on this topic, the Europeans are way better off than the Americans, and if you can argue that with a straight face your delluding yourself because you really really really like guns.

There is no need for it, because nobody is going to take your guns off you anyway.

So rather than get all messy, lets just the numerous people disagreeing with me answer this simple question with one word, just so I can see who can actually reason and be honest, and who is fully delluding themselves.

You are more likely to die via gunfire in the US than the UK - Yes/No
Getting shot really ruins your day - Yes/No

Well matty:
yes and
yes

I disagree with your views, but not where they come from. I think that's OK. In between the two is the understanding that we come from different cultures, similar but different. I think I may have said this a couple pages ago.

BTW is it any coincidence that Matty is in California and all of a sudden there's a dismembered body in Hollywood?

AustonT wrote:Well matty:
yes and
yes

I disagree with your views, but not where they come from. I think that's OK. In between the two is the understanding that we come from different cultures, similar but different. I think I may have said this a couple pages ago.

BTW is it any coincidence that Matty is in California and all of a sudden there's a dismembered body in Hollywood?

Obviously more than a coincidence.

And in reply to SOFDC, I am NOT arguing for total disarmament!

There was another qualifier just after the quoted bit, and there are more people in this thread than yourself arguing with me, after all.

Read that.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17922-carrying-a-gun-increases-risk-of-getting-shot-and-killed.html

If you carry a gun your nearly 5 times more likely to get shot.

And this study needs another qualifier: "In the city of Philadelphia." Philadelphia sucks. It is also not representative of the entire US.

While you might be less likely to get shot in the UK, you are far more likely to be assaulted or the victim of a petty crime or a rape. Per capita the UK leads the US in all those areas.

The chances of someone coming into my home and shooting me with my own gun are nil, because when I'm not home my gun IS WITH ME.

As for all this "perpetual fear" blathering... having a spare in my trunk doesn't make me "perpetually afraid" of having a flat tire. It just makes me prepared for a flat tire. I don't carry a weapon out of fear; it is a method of preparing me to handle an unexpected emergency, nothing more.

Crime rates in the UK are pretty misleading. If you remove the statistics from less than half a dozen inner city areas in London especially, also Birmingham and Manchester, then the per capita crime figures are tiny.
To take my own county as a microcosm, if you removed the crime figures from say Chaddeston and Sinfin from the crime figures of all 1,000 square miles of Derbyshire, crime would be virtually non-existant.
Outside of inner city areas like that, crime is very, very low. Most places in the UK are very safe areas to live.
I had assumed it was the same in the USA, that outside of crime-ridden ghettos, in the sub-urbs, it was actually pretty safe.
But apparently people on here seem to be so scared of a home invasion that their only option is to arm themselves.