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Some stores ban it because they can't sell it and assume that a sale to FW is a sale lost. Sometimes this is true other times it is not.

Some player worry about units they are unfamiliar with with players they don't know well because its very easy to make a good unit broken if you misread the rules.

I am usually fine with forgeworld as long as a copy of the rules is available. I have several of my own forgeworld units.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wow.

I have no words for the travesty that is people banning Forge World.

I would be unable to participate in their events, as my only armies are 30k Mechanicum and Armored Battlegroup.

The fact that this is going on only reinforces to me the correlation between obstinacy and ignorance.

I looooove hyprbole.

If that's your only army then yeah. You wont have an option. You're the exception to the rule though. Most people have an army. Most are smart enough to build one without Forge World stuff. But if thats all you choose to own, then yeah. You'd be left out.

What's the red part supposed to mean? That I'm stupid? That I lack the intelligence to build a list without Forge World models and rules?

Because if that's actually what you meant, then you really need to both 1) Check Rule #1 and 2) deeply consider why you believe there is a correlation between intelligence and using Forge World army lists.

If it isn't what you meant, then could you care to explain how I should interpret that phrase?

Yup. My apology. That wasnt the intent. You should interpret that as two separate statements. As in: most people are smart enough to build a list without forge world so doing so should present little challenge to them aaaand that if you have no force other than forge world, youd be the exception to the rule that would be left out.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wow.

I have no words for the travesty that is people banning Forge World.

I would be unable to participate in their events, as my only armies are 30k Mechanicum and Armored Battlegroup.

The fact that this is going on only reinforces to me the correlation between obstinacy and ignorance.

I looooove hyprbole.

If that's your only army then yeah. You wont have an option. You're the exception to the rule though. Most people have an army. Most are smart enough to build one without Forge World stuff. But if thats all you choose to own, then yeah. You'd be left out.

What's the red part supposed to mean? That I'm stupid? That I lack the intelligence to build a list without Forge World models and rules?

Because if that's actually what you meant, then you really need to both 1) Check Rule #1 and 2) deeply consider why you believe there is a correlation between intelligence and using Forge World army lists.

If it isn't what you meant, then could you care to explain how I should interpret that phrase?

Yup. My apology. That wasnt the intent. You should interpret that as two separate statements. As in: most people are smart enough to build a list without forge world so doing so should present little challenge to them aaaand that if you have no force other than forge world, youd be the exception to the rule that would be left out.

But the problem isn't that I -can't- build a list without Forge World. The problem is that I shouldn't be forced to. It's like telling a Chaos player "Oh, you can just build a guard army" if you ban Chaos from a tournament.

Like, yes, it's feasible for them to build a Guard army, but they play -Chaos-.

 TheAvengingKnee wrote:
Some stores ban it because they can't sell it and assume that a sale to FW is a sale lost. Sometimes this is true other times it is not.

Some player worry about units they are unfamiliar with with players they don't know well because its very easy to make a good unit broken if you misread the rules.

I am usually fine with forgeworld as long as a copy of the rules is available. I have several of my own forgeworld units.

I own some by accident, some death korps models that were left at my hisoos but i just use them as Guard. Its not like youre evil for buying or playing w them. Thats really not the suggestion. And I can totally see the argument by the stores on a "sale lost". Of the four stores I run tournies for, this has never come up, but it could!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wow.

I have no words for the travesty that is people banning Forge World.

I would be unable to participate in their events, as my only armies are 30k Mechanicum and Armored Battlegroup.

The fact that this is going on only reinforces to me the correlation between obstinacy and ignorance.

I looooove hyprbole.

If that's your only army then yeah. You wont have an option. You're the exception to the rule though. Most people have an army. Most are smart enough to build one without Forge World stuff. But if thats all you choose to own, then yeah. You'd be left out.

What's the red part supposed to mean? That I'm stupid? That I lack the intelligence to build a list without Forge World models and rules?

Because if that's actually what you meant, then you really need to both 1) Check Rule #1 and 2) deeply consider why you believe there is a correlation between intelligence and using Forge World army lists.

If it isn't what you meant, then could you care to explain how I should interpret that phrase?

Yup. My apology. That wasnt the intent. You should interpret that as two separate statements. As in: most people are smart enough to build a list without forge world so doing so should present little challenge to them aaaand that if you have no force other than forge world, youd be the exception to the rule that would be left out.

But the problem isn't that I -can't- build a list without Forge World. The problem is that I shouldn't be forced to. It's like telling a Chaos player "Oh, you can just build a guard army" if you ban Chaos from a tournament.

Like, yes, it's feasible for them to build a Guard army, but they play -Chaos-.

First, understand that "should" isnt an argument I'll ever accept. Not attacking you, just letting you know where I am coming from.

But what happened in your case... is... that you chooooose not to be able to. And I respect your choice. It still means you will not be in our tournaments, were you in my area, but casual play isnt going to be affected I am sure. Someone choosing to play nothing but Forge World is not a crime.

You also cannot expect some armies to reasonably compete without FW, because they're willing to plug in the holes that GW leaves.

Take the newest CSM codex for example. It sucks. Flat out simple as that. Loyalist versions are better, they lack allies, the internal balance is horrible, etc.
If you actually live in an area where people are good and not CAAC, you cannot bring stuff from the codex and expect to actually have a decent chance of winning.

SO, queue Forge World to bring in an armory for CSM's to actually have reasonable options. When Serpent Spam was big, I actually had a chance because I had Sicarans, and with the Purge FOC, I can better utilize my slots and ally in different things.

So PLEASE explain how you want CSM players to compete. I don't want your people's garbage of "Oh they do fine here". Anecdotal evidence of your LGS means little. Someone proved that earlier when they made mention that a tournament banned FW and only 4 people showed up.

Build me a winning CSM list without FW. You cannot.

 Jancoran wrote:

I'm pretty sure I did this already. The codex's and the main rulebook. Thats the core. We've typically allowed the Campaign setting stuff as well, since GW uses it like Prestige Classes in 3.X D&D to sell their books. Quite annoying. I am happy that they arent doing that with the Tau Codex and are including the Campaign stuff i nthe Codex. It appears they've wised up on that? Hope to see more of that in the future.

I specifically said 'no fanfiction'.

Give. Me. The. Source.

If people think FW is balanced, try playing against the new Supremacy armour.

Yeah

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So PLEASE explain how you want CSM players to compete. I don't want your people's garbage of "Oh they do fine here". Anecdotal evidence of your LGS means little. Someone proved that earlier when they made mention that a tournament banned FW and only 4 people showed up.

Likewise, there have been two posters and many supporters regarding tournaments of ~30 people showing up to FW banned events, so evidence of your poor turnouts matter little to us. Local Game Stores vary greatly and the area you're housed in matters. If you're living in the ghetto surrounded by underpaid blue collars on welfare your meta is going to differ from the one invested into by suburbanites living on capitol hill. Perhaps a group even bans unpainted models, penalizes them in tournaments, or disallows proxies because you should own hundreds of configurations or magnetized models. What if the CSM player is near the top of the meta and "doing fine here"? The assumptions made across the board here are that players will only run the 5 Wraithknight list when playing Eldar, the Skyhammer Annihilation Force if playing Space Marines, or the War Convocation when playing AdMech. Sometimes even competitive players don't feel the need to obliterate their opponents with something they KNOW to be excessive force and prefer to compete with a self-imposed handicap. Other times they just want to field the models they actually OWN without buying an entirely new CSM army because Thousand Sons aren't cool anymore.

I think the tendencies of your local area matter a great deal. What I need you to PLEASE explain is why you're turning the topic into a definitive YMDC on the merits of banning Forgeworld when it's clearly a widely varying opinion influenced by location and community. Maybe people in New Jersey are simply friendlier than you are and less prone to bring TFG lists to even a competitive tournament.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You also cannot expect some armies to reasonably compete without FW, because they're willing to plug in the holes that GW leaves.

Take the newest CSM codex for example. It sucks. Flat out simple as that. Loyalist versions are better, they lack allies, the internal balance is horrible, etc.
If you actually live in an area where people are good and not CAAC, you cannot bring stuff from the codex and expect to actually have a decent chance of winning.

SO, queue Forge World to bring in an armory for CSM's to actually have reasonable options. When Serpent Spam was big, I actually had a chance because I had Sicarans, and with the Purge FOC, I can better utilize my slots and ally in different things.

So PLEASE explain how you want CSM players to compete. I don't want your people's garbage of "Oh they do fine here". Anecdotal evidence of your LGS means little. Someone proved that earlier when they made mention that a tournament banned FW and only 4 people showed up.

Build me a winning CSM list without FW. You cannot.

I can and have. I just took my Night Lords, as mentioned to an ITC tournament brimming with Forge World. Defeated a Forge World Tyranid list, defeated the Decurion Necrons list and would have defeated the Chaos Daemon list with its flying Sorcerers had I not forgotten to score points on two different occassions ( that loss was on me, not my list. Just boned it).

So I'm really not in agreement at all. In another game most recently they fought the Iron Hands and I tied that game after killing just one Tactical Marine the entire game. My opponent was in the ard boyz finals and has a lot of tourney wins.

So I guess what Im saying is: maybe its not the codex. Maybe its the list or maybe the General. As I proved last Saturday, you can be very competitive with Chaos. I can't sit here and have an entire thread on that so feel free to pm me but I dont share this mentality on Chaos. Ill agree with you this far though: there is no doubt the codex needs an update but I also dont think its so terrible that you need Forge World to make a difference. Well let me rephrase that. I don't.

 Caranthir987 wrote:
If people think FW is balanced, try playing against the new Supremacy armour.

Yeah

Oneshotted by grav.

Next!

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

I'm pretty sure I did this already. The codex's and the main rulebook. Thats the core. We've typically allowed the Campaign setting stuff as well, since GW uses it like Prestige Classes in 3.X D&D to sell their books. Quite annoying. I am happy that they arent doing that with the Tau Codex and are including the Campaign stuff i nthe Codex. It appears they've wised up on that? Hope to see more of that in the future.

I specifically said 'no fanfiction'.

Give. Me. The. Source.

Eh... what? I did.

No. You repeat that rulebook + codex is 'core' but you have no source. Where did GW say they are? Quote page and paragraph.

I hear tell the tau supremacy armor is prrrreeeeettttttyyyy good for its points cost. Hope they dont start swinging back to the old "stat it so it sells" fallback.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

I'm pretty sure I did this already. The codex's and the main rulebook. Thats the core. We've typically allowed the Campaign setting stuff as well, since GW uses it like Prestige Classes in 3.X D&D to sell their books. Quite annoying. I am happy that they arent doing that with the Tau Codex and are including the Campaign stuff i nthe Codex. It appears they've wised up on that? Hope to see more of that in the future.

I specifically said 'no fanfiction'.

Give. Me. The. Source.

Eh... what? I did.

Aren't the codices listed as an "Expansion of the warhammer 40,000 core rulebook" which would mean the only core rules are literally just the BRB?

Everything else, codex included, is an expansion of the basic game.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Caranthir987 wrote:
If people think FW is balanced, try playing against the new Supremacy armour.

Yeah

Oneshotted by grav.

Next!

haha nope

Someone did the math and it would take 2 cent stars with reroll misses to take it down in one turn.

Even if they come in by pod, they are going to eat interceptor from the inevitable 4+ sources, usually a riptide pie plate or two. And you can forget a land raider or walking to get in range. They would be focused by the entire tau army before then.

Because it has 10 wounds and 4++?

Well, send two sword-Wraithknights at it then. Cheaper and dispatches it swiftly in melee.

Or hell, send something Invisible at it and it can't do anything.

 Orock wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Caranthir987 wrote:
If people think FW is balanced, try playing against the new Supremacy armour.

Yeah

Oneshotted by grav.

Next!

haha nope

Someone did the math and it would take 2 cent stars with reroll misses to take it down in one turn.

What?

 Orock wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Caranthir987 wrote:
If people think FW is balanced, try playing against the new Supremacy armour.

Yeah

Oneshotted by grav.

Next!

haha nope

Someone did the math and it would take 2 cent stars with reroll misses to take it down in one turn.

Even if they come in by pod, they are going to eat interceptor from the inevitable 4+ sources, usually a riptide pie plate or two. And you can forget a land raider or walking to get in range. They would be focused by the entire tau army before then.

equivalent points of grav destroyers from Cult Mechanicus will one-shot it in one turn without utilizing -any- of their free special rules.

The tau'nar is very good. It's also a titian, and it's rules are 1st generation PDF rules, so it really isn't comparable to most of FW.

 Orock wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Caranthir987 wrote:
If people think FW is balanced, try playing against the new Supremacy armour.

Yeah

Oneshotted by grav.

Next!

haha nope

Someone did the math and it would take 2 cent stars with reroll misses to take it down in one turn.

Even if they come in by pod, they are going to eat interceptor from the inevitable 4+ sources, usually a riptide pie plate or two. And you can forget a land raider or walking to get in range. They would be focused by the entire tau army before then.

True Dat

It's not like, you know.. with all that interceptor the Tau have, that they wouldn't have like ... you know.. considered that someone may try to grav it to death, and put riptides and broadsides in with EWO's. Considering they are the best units in the Tau codex and all...

Ashiraya, its good how you have all the solutions to taking out the Supremacy armour. Play against a decent player who has a couple of goalkeeper riptides round one, and let us know how you get on


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unit 1126 PL - do you think that your grav servitors are going to get near the supremacy suit? Without weathering several rounds of supremacy fire or eating some high yield missiles to the face with your 4+ save.

I like the model, and its a cool concept, but I'll put my battle reports up from my tournament at the weekend and you can see how it just dominates everything.

The best way to deal with it, is to try and tie it up for a round or two and then get a knight or wraithknight in there. But it still has a chance to smash you in combat as well.

I agree with some posts on here - regular GW codices like Eldar and Necron Decurion are fairly unbalanced. However FW is exceptional at putting out unplayable units, especially when the opponent has an army that adheres to normal codices FOC.

Let's give it a rest, everyone.

The Casual At All Costs mindset is such that anything outside of their narrow definition of fun is to be considered suspect at best and invalid at worst. As they see their version of the game as superior to all others, CAAC players cannot be reasoned with as they will resort to any argument to maintain what they considered to be the be-all end-all of the game, no matter how blatantly irrational their arguments may be.

Mods, lock this thread. It stopped being productive twelve pages ago.

I think a lot of the problems would be solved by merging the FW and normal GW sites into one, my friend refuses to play vs forgeworld because he only want to fight 'official GW stuff'

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
I think a lot of the problems would be solved by merging the FW and normal GW sites into one, my friend refuses to play vs forgeworld because he only want to fight 'official GW stuff'

Tell your friend to stop being stupid. If FW isn't "official GW stuff" then neither are your friend's Citadel miniatures.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Caranthir987 wrote:
However FW is exceptional at putting out unplayable units, especially when the opponent has an army that adheres to normal codices FOC.

No, they really aren't. You can complain about the Tau abomination, but does anyone remember the Revenant titan and Ctan (you know, the reasons why the entire Escalation book was banned in most tournaments)? Those were "main GW" units that were at least as bad as the Tau thing, and arguably much worse.

Also, why are we talking about "normal codices FOC" as if that means anything in 7th edition? This isn't 5th edition anymore.

 Peregrine wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
I think a lot of the problems would be solved by merging the FW and normal GW sites into one, my friend refuses to play vs forgeworld because he only want to fight 'official GW stuff'

Tell your friend to stop being stupid. If FW isn't "official GW stuff" then neither are your friend's Citadel miniatures.

Oh trust me I know. "sorry man, no FW, you can play with ___ instead then."
And living in a small town an hour highway drive from the nearest LGS... its hard to get games as is, so i havn't bought any cool FW models :(

 Jancoran wrote:


"People would be fine with that" is an indicator to me that you understand on some level the need for balance. yet despite your understanding of the need for it, you don't include economic balance amongst those virtues you defend.

No, I understand that, however, as I've explained multiple times, the "economic balance" isn't what you have claimed it is, and you don't seem to apply the "economic balance" argument to anything but Forgeworld as some unfortunate double-standard that for some reason doesn't apply to anything else.. Should Green Tide armies be banned because they cost twice what Grey Knight armies cost to build? Different armies and units have always had different costs, often wildly different.

You don't seem too hot on banning DLC-style dataslates or extraneous campaign books nor be advocating the banning of web-bundle-exclusive formations that require several hundred dollars of investment to legally obtain. Should CSM's be banned since they have two supplement books people have to buy while Tyranids have none?

Again when codex books were $20, and Character models were $12, you might have had a point. When Codex books are now $60, charactrs are $25-35, sorry, the argument just no longer holds.

Your "economic balance" argument has no legs to stand on at this point, and feels like a flimsy justification to continue a bias held over from multiple editions ago.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:


If it wasnt core to the game, you'd have a point. But anyone who doesnt want to do that much is probably not going to tournaments anyways. So there's that.

Define 'core to the game'.

Be sure to include a source, I am not interested in fanfiction.

I'm pretty sure I did this already. The codex's and the main rulebook. Thats the core.

No, that's what *you* call the core, but there is no such definition to be found in the rules of the game. No such concept of a "core" game is to be found within the 7th edition rules.

Additionally, by your definition, dataslates, campaign books, etc are not "core" either, but you don't seem to have an issue with those.

I have nothing against Forgeworld at all, some of my best friends use Forgeworld! The rulebook is very 'Citadel minature' orientated though.

"An army is a collection of one or more units of Citadel miniatures"
Are Forgeworld models 'Citadel miniatures'?

It also says "The rules for your Citadel miniatures are found in a wide range of Games Workshop's publications such as codexes, codex supplements and datslates".
It doesn't explicitly mention Forgeworld rules, but they aren't excluded either; are they Games Workshop publications?

Personally I am happy to play anything*, the person I am up against is more important to me than the models we happen to be using.

That said, I don't think anyone is wrong for having their own preferences on how they like to play or creating restrictions for their events.

nareik wrote:
I have nothing against Forgeworld at all, some of my best friends use Forgeworld! The rulebook is very 'Citadel minature' orientated though.

"An army is a collection of one or more units of Citadel miniatures"
Are Forgeworld models 'Citadel miniatures'?

It also says "The rules for your Citadel miniatures are found in a wide range of Games Workshop's publications such as codexes, codex supplements and datslates".
It doesn't explicitly mention Forgeworld rules, but they aren't excluded either; are they Games Workshop publications?

Given that they're written by GW employees at GW HQ with GW Copyrights and state that they are "Published by Games Workshop", with a "Games Workshop" stamp on the spine, one would assume so . One will notice the above line does not mention White Dwarf, Campaign books, or other such things either that nobody seems to discriminate against the way they do FW

nareik wrote:
I have nothing against Forgeworld at all, some of my best friends use Forgeworld! The rulebook is very 'Citadel minature' orientated though.

"An army is a collection of one or more units of Citadel miniatures"
Are Forgeworld models 'Citadel miniatures'?

It also says "The rules for your Citadel miniatures are found in a wide range of Games Workshop's publications such as codexes, codex supplements and datslates".
It doesn't explicitly mention Forgeworld rules, but they aren't excluded either; are they Games Workshop publications?

Personally I am happy to play anything*, the person I am up against is more important to me than the models we happen to be using.

That said, I don't think anyone is wrong for having their own preferences on how they like to play or creating restrictions for their events.

Spoiler:

*as long as it is form the stock chaos marine codex and nothing else

Problem is there is no actual definition of what a Citadel miniature is in the BRB. It's why MFA is such a divisive issue.

Actually, trying to follow the BRB by the letter rather than the spirit is a exercise in insanity. I believe one awesome poster made a list of the the insanity of pure RAW WH40k.

And given that in the intro to most of the current FW books, it explicitly says that the rules presented here, are intended as official rules of GW and 40k products, and as was mentioned above, published by GW, I tend to go with that. Oh, there is the standard caveat that some players might not know the rules, so be sure to discuss it with your opponent before the game. Problem solved.

I am still unsure what the holdout is. The idea they are overpowered is debunked (as they themselves seem to admit). The idea they are over costed vs. GW is debunked is debunked. The idea that it is just one more rule set seems to be the sticking point, but is ridiculous when GW's rules are looked at in their entirety across various platforms (nobody can fully know even one army based on the various addememndum.) So I'm not really sure what the holdup is other than some folks who don't like it...it seems, based upon the complaints raised, that they would actually prefer to play 30k if they only knew what it was about.

"I don't care that you spent a gakload of cash and effort buying, building and painting this model, nor do I care that you got it because you think its awesome and has awesome rules, its a minor inconvenience to me to face unknown units so put it back in your bag and prepare to footslog your boys into my new stormsurge spam list"