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 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 HollowAcid wrote:
The first one is about Sisters of Battle Dominion squad with new acts of faith combo. According to the index, the dominion sisters can move at the begining of the game because of a special rule. Can I move, then Act of Faith hand of the Emperor (to move again) and then move normally like moving phase? I think this is a good combo to hunt monsters with a full melta squad. Any suggestion or combos for the sisters?

First: No, you can't. Because Acts of Faith occur before the movement phase, and a vehicle is ineligible to be the target of an Act of Faith, Dominions cannot move under Vanguard, move under Hand of the Emperor, and then disembark/move in the movement phase, because they'll still be loaded up in their transport at the time Hand of the Emperor occurs and aren't on the board to act.

That isn't entirely accurate. The question was if Dominions can Vanguard move then move again with Hand of the Emperor then move normally in the movement phase. There was no mention of the Dominions being in a transport at any point during the sequence so the answer to the question is

Yes. As long as they're not in a transport at the start of the game, you can do exactly what you described for a 18+3d6 series of moves -- both Vanguard and Hand of the Emperor let you move as if it were the movement phase, so the unit can advance each time. Also, if you choose not to advance during the actual Movement phase you don't suffer the -1 to hit for Advancing with assault weapons and your rapid fire weapons can still shoot normally.

If the Dominions are in a transport, then they cannot be targeted by an Act of Faith but the rest is perfectly legal, including the bit about advancing. Just now you move and advance using the transport's speed.

Second: Seraphim or Dominions are fairly effective at protecting Celestine. She is a character, and cannot be targeted if a friendly unit is closer than she is, so Seraphim, who match her movement, and Dominions, who can get ahead of her with their Vanguard move, make good bodyguards. Hiding Celestine isn't something you want to do, because her shooting attack is hilariously weak. You want her to be in the enemy's face and hacking those traitors and xenos apart with her sword. Seraphim are better bodyguards than Dominions, because they can join her in the hack-and-slashing without a significant reduction in efficiency, but if you don't have any, just stay behind a Dominion squad. Also, the Dominions' transport can make an excellent bodyguard for her, just keep it between her and the scary enemy that might kill her.

I run Celestine either alone in small games or accompanied by a block of Seraphim. The Seraphim can help to soften up enemies and screen Celestine from fire, and are the target for the Saintly Blessings ability, so that both them and Celestine move up 12+D6" as an Act of Faith, and then move another 12" during their movement phase, then charge in the charge phase together.

Think of Celestine as a distraction Carnifex -- something you know will draw a lot of firepower to take down. Also remember that she can use her own Act of Faith on herself and can use it to either revive a lost Geminae (at 1 wound) OR to heal herself D3 wounds in addition to using it to move or fight. In addition, if Celestine has passed her once per game return from the dead roll, dies again, and you still have Geminae on the table you can use her automatic Act of Faith to bring Celestine back with 1 Wound because the Geminae only go away if you fail her Miraculous Intervention roll and as long as at least 1 model is alive in the unit, the AoF can be used to bring back any model in the unit.

 HollowAcid wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

First: No, you can't. Because Acts of Faith occur before the movement phase, and a vehicle is ineligible to be the target of an Act of Faith, Dominions cannot move under Vanguard, move under Hand of the Emperor, and then disembark/move in the movement phase, because they'll still be loaded up in their transport at the time Hand of the Emperor occurs and aren't on the board to act.

Second: Seraphim or Dominions are fairly effective at protecting Celestine. She is a character, and cannot be targeted if a friendly unit is closer than she is, so Seraphim, who match her movement, and Dominions, who can get ahead of her with their Vanguard move, make good bodyguards. Hiding Celestine isn't something you want to do, because her shooting attack is hilariously weak. You want her to be in the enemy's face and hacking those traitors and xenos apart with her sword. Seraphim are better bodyguards than Dominions, because they can join her in the hack-and-slashing without a significant reduction in efficiency, but if you don't have any, just stay behind a Dominion squad. Also, the Dominions' transport can make an excellent bodyguard for her, just keep it between her and the scary enemy that might kill her.

I run Celestine either alone in small games or accompanied by a block of Seraphim. The Seraphim can help to soften up enemies and screen Celestine from fire, and are the target for the Saintly Blessings ability, so that both them and Celestine move up 12+D6" as an Act of Faith, and then move another 12" during their movement phase, then charge in the charge phase together.

Thanks for the tips!

My army consists of:

Celestine and her bodyguards
1 Canoness
2 Imagifiers
20 Battle Sisters
1 Immolator
1 Penitent Engine
1 Rhino
5 Sisters of Silence
1 Canonness

and then 17 space marines that I play them like regular battle sisters since it's an expensive army and I can't afford the official price ones, so I stick with these guys and slowly replace them with sisters.


How should I continue my army? Maybe repentias or seraphims? Or stack even more battle sisters? Thanks for your help!

'

More vehicles, I'd recommend. While the Exorcist was nerfed hard, by comparison, it still isn't bad, and having transport tanks for Dominions is, in my opinion, a must-have. In addition, if you don't have special-weapon wielding Sisters, I'd pick up a pile pronto. Right now, I'm having a hard time finding a reason not to run an army consisting almost entirely of Storm Bolter and Melta Dominions in Repressors and Immolators or than "I won't have friends anymore". [Also, I don't nearly have enough Storm Bolters]


Also, Taikishi is right. Dominions can receive and Act of Faith on turn one, but if and only if they didn't start the game inside of a transport. I personally think that the transports are essential, but that may also be ingrained experience from editions gone by.


For the Emperor! May He grant you victory in your battles!

Why take an Exorcist when the Manticore is better and cheaper?

For that matter, why take an Exorcist when you can take a quad-las Predator. The Exorcist is 20% cheaper that a quad-las Predator but 40% less effective against vehicles. :(


If anything, the Exorcist is a heavy armored infantry killer now, not a vehicle/MC killer, and there are probably other vehicles in the Imperial Armory that can do that job better as well.

Taikishi wrote:

Think of Celestine as a distraction Carnifex -- something you know will draw a lot of firepower to take down. Also remember that she can use her own Act of Faith on herself and can use it to either revive a lost Geminae (at 1 wound) OR to heal herself D3 wounds in addition to using it to move or fight. In addition, if Celestine has passed her once per game return from the dead roll, dies again, and you still have Geminae on the table you can use her automatic Act of Faith to bring Celestine back with 1 Wound because the Geminae only go away if you fail her Miraculous Intervention roll and as long as at least 1 model is alive in the unit, the AoF can be used to bring back any model in the unit.

Her AoF wouldn't fire if she's dead, but you can burn one of the standard ones on the initial phase. It would be hilarious if she rez'd next to an imagifier, and then fired off a D3 heal after the rez. Oh....and now that's she on the board after her rez, can she then use her AoF if you haven't started your movement portion of the phase?

Taikishi wrote:
For that matter, why take an Exorcist when you can take a quad-las Predator. The Exorcist is 20% cheaper that a quad-las Predator but 40% less effective against vehicles. :(


If anything, the Exorcist is a heavy armored infantry killer now, not a vehicle/MC killer, and there are probably other vehicles in the Imperial Armory that can do that job better as well.

Id like to see your math on that (just curious), but the Exorcist is also a tougher nut to crack than the Predator is due to that increased toughness and extra wound. The price difference means that for the points I save on one of them I can include a Canoness to confer rerolls in the backfield.

Compare to the melta-dominions or penitent engine which gives you more immediate bang but less longevity.

My wife and I played a game yesterday where she made her army "Imperial" instead, and simply swapped out her Exorcists/Cannoness/Imagifier points (from pre-FAQ she was running a little gun-castle with 2x each and a Cannoness for buffs in the backfield), with the same points in Earth-shaker Batteries... and the increase in power was horrific and shocking.

She had almost triple the amount of shots, between the Shaker's costing half an Exorcist, and their rolling 2d6 taking highest for number of shots.

It was also a bummer for her, as she would much rather use her well painted, well loved Sisters models... and yet here is a weird case of one model just objectively being better than hers in every meaningful way.

I clearly don't know guard enough. Are you talking about a bassilisk or something else?

 Captain Joystick wrote:
I clearly don't know guard enough. Are you talking about a bassilisk or something else?

Sounds like the Forgeworld earhshaker bwtteries, which are basically the basilisk gun without the tank part.

 Captain Joystick wrote:
I clearly don't know guard enough. Are you talking about a bassilisk or something else?

I think he means the Forge World Earthshaker Battery, which are an Earthshaker gun minus the Chimera chassis. They're immobile gun platforms that trade mobility and a fair bit of durability for a ~25% decrease in cost. For reference, two of them are the same cost as a single Exorcist.

Taikishi wrote:
Also, if you choose not to advance during the actual Movement phase you don't suffer the -1 to hit for Advancing with assault weapons and your rapid fire weapons can still shoot normally.

Unfortunately I don't think this part isn't completely accurate, as Advancing states:

A unit that Advances can’t shoot or charge later that turn.

So if you Advance during any of the the Vanguard/Act of Faith/normal Movements, you forego non-assault shooting later that turn. Interestingly I think this would cause you to be unable to fire Overwatch with non-Assault weapons on the first turn if you Advance during your Vanguard movement.

Vanguard happens before the first turn so you can advance with that without any problems.

Yeah I don't think Vanguard would trigger your advance (and block the assault later) - since you get to move again in the normal phase. It happens before the game actually starts. That's a good one for a FAQ though.

 AlexHeap wrote:
Vanguard happens before the first turn so you can advance with that without any problems.

Quite true! Thanks for pointing that out. That does eke out a bit more movement for the Dominions.

I'm not seeing a lot of reason to take Sisters that aren't Dominions or Seraphim. Vanguard is such a powerful rule, and the ability to take 4 specials more than makes up for Dominions' increased cost over Battle Sisters. Seraphim have several things going for them as well, though I still think more than a single unit as a Celestine escort is probably too many. I predict a lot of Outrider detachments in our future, unless people are willing to dip into non-Sororitas Troops choices.

Yeah, I was referring to the Earth-Shaker FW thingie. It looks like a Howitzer. Crazy efficient models, and their barrels are so long she could hide them almost entirely in terrain for cover, with just the barrel sticking out for LoS purposes.

Finally finished painting my 1500 list for later this month. So many heavy bolters.

KestrelM1 wrote:

I'm not seeing a lot of reason to take Sisters that aren't Dominions or Seraphim. Vanguard is such a powerful rule, and the ability to take 4 specials more than makes up for Dominions' increased cost over Battle Sisters. Seraphim have several things going for them as well, though I still think more than a single unit as a Celestine escort is probably too many. I predict a lot of Outrider detachments in our future, unless people are willing to dip into non-Sororitas Troops choices.

Retributors can make for solid gun line support. And if you've got primarily Dominions in vehicles, they can make for solid use of acts of faith to pepper the enemy with heavy bolter shots in the early-game.

So I started re-basing all the girls on 32mm - I do like it overall. I had to clip the stock seraphim supports, so currently messing with 3mm acrylic rod to make new flying bases. Wish I still had my mini-lathe, I'd just cut down the stems a bit on the ends and drill out a 2mm hole in their base :(

I'm probably going to do the same after my kill team turned out so good on the 32mm urban bases.

The occasional question about it is a small price to pay for never falling over again.

The seraphim will be tricky, because I mounted them my way of wires and green-stuff smoke trails from their backpacks.

So I'm thinking of grabbing a talons of the emp and was wondering how to include them as anti psyer and a little bit more beef with the custodes. What's the best outfit for them to support sisters?

Oberron wrote:
So I'm thinking of grabbing a talons of the emp and was wondering how to include them as anti psyer and a little bit more beef with the custodes. What's the best outfit for them to support sisters?

I'd probably give the sisters of silence swords, since sisters of battle already have the bolter and flamer thing pretty much covered. They also look cool.

I run the SoS with greatblades - they function as either SoS, or as Crusaders. The Crusader wargear only lists the blade, the stormshield is an ability - so it fits WYSWG - and looks fantastic. You could always toss some shields on their back for fun too

Oberron wrote:So I'm thinking of grabbing a talons of the emp and was wondering how to include them as anti psyer and a little bit more beef with the custodes. What's the best outfit for them to support sisters?

Executioner Greatswords. Apart from the fact that they look awesome with the swords, they're really good. They're less good this edition, because the value of AP2 is reduced and they no longer have I5, but the other two options are covered better and cheaper by our own troops.

 Captain Joystick wrote:
I clearly don't know guard enough. Are you talking about a bassilisk or something else?

There are actually 2 dismounted Earthshaker units, the Earthshaker Platform, which has a cruciform chassis with the Basilisk platform, gun, and shield on a swivel on top of it, and the Heavy Artillery Carriage with Earthshaker Gun, which is a split-trail artillery carriage with the gun mounted on it.

I'm guessing it's the latter of the two, because the former is fairly uncommon to see and hear about, and the latter is apparently really, really good this edition.




Anyway, with regards to the towed artillery units, they've always outclassed other artillery options, because they're half the price of the self-propelled kind and it's not like the armor of the Basilisk was doing any work. For the record, though, because of the Medusa's really short range, I preferred the self-propelled Medusa Siege Gun to the towed Medusa Siege Gun.

 Captain Joystick wrote:
I'm probably going to do the same after my kill team turned out so good on the 32mm urban bases.

The occasional question about it is a small price to pay for never falling over again.

The seraphim will be tricky, because I mounted them my way of wires and green-stuff smoke trails from their backpacks.

Ah, I just glued a quarter to the bottom of each 25mm seaphim basr. The extra weight makes them stable.

I put washers on all my bases anyways (due to tablewar case), so mine are doing pretty well on the stability front.

Fafnir wrote:Why take an Exorcist when the Manticore is better and cheaper?

Taikishi wrote:For that matter, why take an Exorcist when you can take a quad-las Predator. The Exorcist is 20% cheaper that a quad-las Predator but 40% less effective against vehicles. :(

Why take Sisters at all if you would rather just play SM or IG units?

Why come to a Sisters of Battle thread and yap on about playing other armies?

Or, why not just bring Repressor Doms and Celestine and Inferno Seraphim and smoke all your Moo moo's and quad-las Poo poo's?

Sisters players play them because they love the army, not because they are hunting for the best math hammered abomination of a net list.

What about custodes and their dread to help sisters? Would the custodes fit a good melee roll too and the dread as fire support/bullet sponge

 dracpanzer wrote:

Fafnir wrote:Why take an Exorcist when the Manticore is better and cheaper?

Taikishi wrote:For that matter, why take an Exorcist when you can take a quad-las Predator. The Exorcist is 20% cheaper that a quad-las Predator but 40% less effective against vehicles. :(

Why take Sisters at all if you would rather just play SM or IG units?

Why come to a Sisters of Battle thread and yap on about playing other armies?

Or, why not just bring Repressor Doms and Celestine and Inferno Seraphim and smoke all your Moo moo's and quad-las Poo poo's?

Sisters players play them because they love the army, not because they are hunting for the best math hammered abomination of a net list.

...because you can easily run a Manticore as part of a Sisters army?

Math on Exorcist vs 4x Las Predator

Exorcist firing at T5-7, 3+ save:
3.5 shots on average
2/3 chance to hit (stationary)
2/3 chance to would
No save
2 wounds average per damage roll

7/2 * 4/9 * 2/1 = 56/18 = 3.11 unsaved wounds per turn


Predator against same target
4 shots, 2/3 chance to hit, 2/3 chance to wound, 6+ save, 3.5 wounds average.
4/1 * 4/9 * 5/6 * 7/2 = 560/108 = 5.19 unsaved wounds per turn

3.11/5.19 = 0.599
160/202 = 0.792

Edited to correct a phone auto correct or three and to bring everything to at least 2 significant figures


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dracpanzer wrote:

Fafnir wrote:Why take an Exorcist when the Manticore is better and cheaper?

Taikishi wrote:For that matter, why take an Exorcist when you can take a quad-las Predator. The Exorcist is 20% cheaper that a quad-las Predator but 40% less effective against vehicles. :(

Why take Sisters at all if you would rather just play SM or IG units?

Why come to a Sisters of Battle thread and yap on about playing other armies?

Or, why not just bring Repressor Doms and Celestine and Inferno Seraphim and smoke all your Moo moo's and quad-las Poo poo's?

Sisters players play them because they love the army, not because they are hunting for the best math hammered abomination of a net list.

Because Sisters tactica at this point might as well include all Imperium since we can cherry pick what we want to bring? Like I said (possibly elsewhere), Exos are a better heavy infantry killer then tank killer now.

But for tank and monster hunting? Exorcist currently aren't worth their points. Maybe once the codex drops or if we could still AoF to double fire, but we don't know when the Codex is dropping and the AoF wagon has currently passed.

Oberron wrote:
What about custodes and their dread to help sisters? Would the custodes fit a good melee roll too and the dread as fire support/bullet sponge

I've done that.

I can say that, honestly, I was unimpressed by the Custodians this edition. They are extremely expensive.

In an IG list, I tried to fight carnifexes with them, which was unsuccessful, to say the least. That way my bad, though. However, the points spent on them, their vehicle, and their dreadnought could have gone towards an entire battery of artillery and another Leman Russ Punisher, which would have added far more than they did to the list.

In a Sisters list, my Necron opponent nearly quit the match over their presence, because "he couldn't kill them", but up unto that point he actually hadn't fired a thing at them apart from a single round of overwatch from an Annihilation Barge that they killed in melee [which, for the record, was the only thing they managed to kill. Their Land Raider killed a Triarch Stalker, too.] He killed 3 of them in the following turn with all his remaining firepower. However, I can't say for certain if additional Sisters would have been better because our Meltaguns are almost entirely ineffective against the Annihilation Barges and Ghost Arks, thanks to Quantum Shielding. I can't really think of a good way to penetrate Quantum Shielding, but I'm almost 100% certain bringing Earthshakers or Exorcists would have been more efficient.

Because I'm bored, more math on the Exo vs Pred:

Probability of inflicting at least 1 wound/turn:

P(at least 1w) = 1 - P(no wounds)

Exorcist: 87.2% chance to inflict at least one unsaved wound a turn


Quad Las Predator: 98.1% chance to inflict at least one unsaved wound per turn


.872/.981 = 12% difference

TL;DR, use Exorcists to hunt bikes, TEQ, etc. Use Predators to hunt things like a Carnifex, Wraithlord, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For kicks, here's how the value changes if you use a command point to re-roll a 1 or 2 for your shots:

Average # of shots goes up to 4.17 a turn from 3.5

Average wounds/turn: 3.71


3.71/5.18 = 0.716

That means that, with a command point, Exorcists are only 30% less effective than Predators instead of 40%. It's an improvement, but still not enough to justify the fact they're only 20% cheaper than Predators.

Here's what the numbers looked like when we could RAW AoF them using an Imagifier:

No CP: 4.67 wounds per turn


4.67/5.18 = 0.902
200/202 = 0.99

At that point the Exorcist is still a bit overcosted even with the additional cost of an Imagifier added to the equation

With CP: 5.26


5.26/5.18 = 1.015
200/202 = 0.99

So with the ability to use an AoF AND a CP, an Exorcist + Imagifier is 2% more effective than a Quad-las Predator. While that looks good on paper, that still seems a bit overcosted because you're now using three resources (Heavy slot, Elites slot, CP) and spending similar amounts of points (200 vs 202) for the same level of effectiveness.