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I got lucky and ate Njal Stormcaller on T1 with a Heldrake with half a dozen buffs from powers and strats. Gave me psychic supremacy and let me Warptime key units up the board in what was essentially a lengthwise strongpoint attack.

I do intend to try them in a hybrid Epidemius - Slaanesh list at some point. If a Fiend can prevent a T1 whipping boy from running away, they could well be utterly lethal.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Heldrakes have two aspects to take advantage of:
1. An auto hitting weapon with an okay profile, which counters stuff
2. Insane speed to make charges and therefore tie up units (and they'll fall back or you will)
If you aren't making use of everything, they're never gonna make their points back. Quite honestly, they're unlikely to ever make their points back anyway.

Didn't they go down in price in Chapter Approved too?

They did, and still lack a -1 to hit.
Still are only 4+ hitters if no flamer get's involved, which is a shame since the Hades autocannon is just more versatile.


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Its one of the best troop choice or the most dakka able unit with abby for a CSM player. Okay, they get rekt against T5 and good LOS terrain.

The ammount of additional dakka in combination with the higher pricetag is kinda the issue.
Also remember plague marines dropped again and don't see widespread use. (they make a good alpha legion cheapo plasma msu though)

Honestly the Hades was garbage on them last edition too, to the point there's no point to it existing on a Heldrake. It's a weapon that requires heavy saturation and other platforms can do that, whereas this is the only platform with a Bale and it has a specified role.

Also don't get me started on Plague Marines. They have several issues last edition and they have several this edition.

Hades Heldrake had so much potential to be interesting in a game with armour facing and manoeuvres. Death From The Skies and Stormcloud Attack hinted at this and then it was whipped out from under our noses. Shame.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Heldrakes have two aspects to take advantage of:
1. An auto hitting weapon with an okay profile, which counters stuff
2. Insane speed to make charges and therefore tie up units (and they'll fall back or you will)
If you aren't making use of everything, they're never gonna make their points back. Quite honestly, they're unlikely to ever make their points back anyway.

Didn't they go down in price in Chapter Approved too?

They did, and still lack a -1 to hit.
Still are only 4+ hitters if no flamer get's involved, which is a shame since the Hades autocannon is just more versatile.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Its one of the best troop choice or the most dakka able unit with abby for a CSM player. Okay, they get rekt against T5 and good LOS terrain.

The ammount of additional dakka in combination with the higher pricetag is kinda the issue.
Also remember plague marines dropped again and don't see widespread use. (they make a good alpha legion cheapo plasma msu though)

Honestly the Hades was garbage on them last edition too, to the point there's no point to it existing on a Heldrake. It's a weapon that requires heavy saturation and other platforms can do that, whereas this is the only platform with a Bale and it has a specified role.

Also don't get me started on Plague Marines. They have several issues last edition and they have several this edition.

Plague marines, are still the better cultmarines, compared to noise marines.
As for the helldrake, it probably still has to pay for the sins at it's introduction.

It's hard to make any cult marines work but plague have the nicest sculpts. I kinda want to run death guard and knights just cuz everything looks awesome.

Nature's Minister wrote:
It's hard to make any cult marines work but plague have the nicest sculpts. I kinda want to run death guard and knights just cuz everything looks awesome.

Khorne Berzerkers do work, they are just inflexible glasscannons, but they do work.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Heldrakes have two aspects to take advantage of:
1. An auto hitting weapon with an okay profile, which counters stuff
2. Insane speed to make charges and therefore tie up units (and they'll fall back or you will)
If you aren't making use of everything, they're never gonna make their points back. Quite honestly, they're unlikely to ever make their points back anyway.

Didn't they go down in price in Chapter Approved too?

They did, and still lack a -1 to hit.
Still are only 4+ hitters if no flamer get's involved, which is a shame since the Hades autocannon is just more versatile.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Its one of the best troop choice or the most dakka able unit with abby for a CSM player. Okay, they get rekt against T5 and good LOS terrain.

The ammount of additional dakka in combination with the higher pricetag is kinda the issue.
Also remember plague marines dropped again and don't see widespread use. (they make a good alpha legion cheapo plasma msu though)

Honestly the Hades was garbage on them last edition too, to the point there's no point to it existing on a Heldrake. It's a weapon that requires heavy saturation and other platforms can do that, whereas this is the only platform with a Bale and it has a specified role.

Also don't get me started on Plague Marines. They have several issues last edition and they have several this edition.

Plague marines, are still the better cultmarines, compared to noise marines.
As for the helldrake, it probably still has to pay for the sins at it's introduction.

I'm still bitter that they basically lost an attack and their Bolters aren't Plague Weapons. You give me that and I'll gladly pay 17 or 18 points.

Noise Marines simply need cheaper Blasters. Otherwise they fulfill their role of bullying Cover Cowards.

Berserker Marines actually work. Somewhat. I just wish the squad had Power Fists or (my favorite) Eviscerators as an option.

Rubric Marines are in the same durable camp as Plague Marines, but I see Plague Marines as wanting to be up close and Rubric Marines don't. I had a fix last edition that the Sorcerer could cast different buff each turn and I'd like to actually see it come to fruition. It never will though.


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Also yeah Heldrakes are still paying for last edition. At least they aren't worse off than Devastator Centurions.

as of Vigilus, Heldrakes are definitely worse than Devastator Cents


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also noise marines are much more than cover-hunters

 SHUPPET wrote:
as of Vigilus, Heldrakes are definitely worse than Devastator Cents


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also noise marines are much more than cover-hunters

If you're referring to the particular detachment benefit you can CP for...yeah no.

Also I know they're a little more than cover hunters, but it's one of the roles they're kinda destined for based on everyone ignoring cover.

I think all the cult marines have their place, they're just hard to build an entire list around. Throw in a unit or two of any of them, and they still do good work.

-Berserkers are probably the most straightforward of the bunch. Get them in a rhino or termite drill and mulch things and die. You can stack a mountain of buffs on them too via apostle/exalted, prescience, and VoTL if you REALLY need to shred something.
-Rubrics are decent all-rounders, able to suck up damage and dish it out. With flamers they're awesome close-range killers, and the sorcerer is a cherry on top. Use chaos familiar to swap out smite for something useful.
-Plagues are good MSU special weapon squads, with either 3 plasma, or two blightlaunchers and a plasma. Just hang around in cover and throw out wounds.
-Noisyboys kill chaff like nobodies business, and with stratagems and their death ability, they just put out so many goddamn bullets they're almost always worth it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
as of Vigilus, Heldrakes are definitely worse than Devastator Cents


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also noise marines are much more than cover-hunters

If you're referring to the particular detachment benefit you can CP for...yeah no.

I am... and, no, yeah.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Nature's Minister wrote:
It's hard to make any cult marines work but plague have the nicest sculpts. I kinda want to run death guard and knights just cuz everything looks awesome.

Khorne Berzerkers do work, they are just inflexible glasscannons, but they do work.

I'm having trouble keeping mine alive after they jump out of their box and kill everything in 12". Love them, but really hard to tri-point a unit when it's wiped or flees. I also mostly play vs. BA and Guard and Necron.

Unrelated, back to chosen, anyone have anecdotal support that 6 flamers and chainswords work?

 SHUPPET wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
as of Vigilus, Heldrakes are definitely worse than Devastator Cents


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also noise marines are much more than cover-hunters

If you're referring to the particular detachment benefit you can CP for...yeah no.

I am... and, no, yeah.

Each one is 70 points at minimum. Are you sure about that statement?

After all of the FAQ etc. can noise marines still shoot characters if they die outside of their own shooting phase despite character targeting rules? What is the current thought on noise marines? With cover start they get 2+ and the ignore cover rule seems decent, slightly over costed but getting off 1st turn seems to guarantee another turn of shooting and even better if charge goes off... Not sure if it can be competitive...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
as of Vigilus, Heldrakes are definitely worse than Devastator Cents


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also noise marines are much more than cover-hunters

If you're referring to the particular detachment benefit you can CP for...yeah no.

I am... and, no, yeah.

Each one is 70 points at minimum. Are you sure about that statement?

Each Castellan is 600 pts minimum, they must be extra bad


Their points are representative of what they bring to the table, which in this case, is more than the same amount of points in Heldrake's does.

They really aren't that bad, but you will never see it until someone better than you beats you with it, so whatever.

Dactylartha wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Nature's Minister wrote:
It's hard to make any cult marines work but plague have the nicest sculpts. I kinda want to run death guard and knights just cuz everything looks awesome.

Khorne Berzerkers do work, they are just inflexible glasscannons, but they do work.

I'm having trouble keeping mine alive after they jump out of their box and kill everything in 12". Love them, but really hard to tri-point a unit when it's wiped or flees. I also mostly play vs. BA and Guard and Necron.

Unrelated, back to chosen, anyone have anecdotal support that 6 flamers and chainswords work?

Again, expecting Khorneberzerker to survive is the wrong attitude. It's like saying shocktroops should hold onto a trench forever, even though their tactical plan is to breakthrough and make way for other stuff.
Basically, Khorneberzerkers eliminate chaff or big problem targets and afterwards all they do is soak fire. They are f.e. not intended to hold an objective, for that you have cultists or even regular marines.

As for chosen, why would you equip them with anything else then a combibolter? They are way cheaper and in the same area can generate an equal ammount of dakka, not to mention that they still can engage at 24"

If any sepcial wepon should take your fancy, get your hands on plasma chosen, combi plasma chosen, since they can solve all problems, but are too expensive.

Edit: if you really want to burn things, renegade militia can get 1 special weapon per 5 militia members in a squad, max squad size is 20 --> 4 flamers, and they can be easily somewhat made morale immune, but even there, why bother with flamers when you get grenade launchers for half the price and heavy stbbers for 2 pts a pop.


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 lindsay40k wrote:
Hades Heldrake had so much potential to be interesting in a game with armour facing and manoeuvres. Death From The Skies and Stormcloud Attack hinted at this and then it was whipped out from under our noses. Shame.

The problem i see with it, there is no cheap bood bs plattform for it. Nothing against daemon engines but even the ones designed for shooting just suck thanks to bs4+ and a pricing based more on their durability then real effectiveness.

If we could've gotten say a predator with twin Hades autocannon in it's turret, the story would change drastically but atm the gun which is actually fairly great, is stuck on vehicles that A, suck (Helldrake) B are overpriced (Dakkafiend) and C struggle from BS4+.

With the points drop in seriously considering a kytan but really not keen on the legs. I've seen a couple of conversions where people have attached the lord of skulls torso to imperial Knight legs.
Anybody have any experience or know of any tutorials/blogs about it? Or good examples? Google is only coming up with a couple of images, I'm concerned maybe the IK legs are a little squat for the kytan torso...

Abaddon303 wrote:
With the points drop in seriously considering a kytan but really not keen on the legs. I've seen a couple of conversions where people have attached the lord of skulls torso to imperial Knight legs.
Anybody have any experience or know of any tutorials/blogs about it? Or good examples? Google is only coming up with a couple of images, I'm concerned maybe the IK legs are a little squat for the kytan torso...

An amiriger is too stubby, fits with daemonengines though sizewise, so i'd say the next bigger one. point in case i am just eyeballing, you should probably go the modeling blogs with that question.

Yeh I was thinking the full size Knight. I think the castellan is slightly taller and might be the right dimensions although will probably be more expensive to buy spare legs from a bitz store

Beginning to think that Knights are being meta against now. Alot more heavy weapons are now brought because of knights. Honestly though, a Castellan is still hard to deal with. And don't get me started on the Valiant. That thing is so dangerous to charge, but just as hard to kill with shooting as a Castellan.

How do you guys deal with knight lists?

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Beginning to think that Knights are being meta against now. Alot more heavy weapons are now brought because of knights. Honestly though, a Castellan is still hard to deal with. And don't get me started on the Valiant. That thing is so dangerous to charge, but just as hard to kill with shooting as a Castellan.

How do you guys deal with knight lists?

Sick of fighting them, sick of jiggering lists to deal with them.

Lascannons and Bloodletter Bombs are how I deal with them. Shoot from a distance and drop infantry close enough to charge.

Last night, the guy at the table next to me was paying 3 Sicarans against them. Not sure why, but the accelerator autocannons were getting some work done.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Beginning to think that Knights are being meta against now. Alot more heavy weapons are now brought because of knights. Honestly though, a Castellan is still hard to deal with. And don't get me started on the Valiant. That thing is so dangerous to charge, but just as hard to kill with shooting as a Castellan.

How do you guys deal with knight lists?

Sick of fighting them, sick of jiggering lists to deal with them.

Lascannons and Bloodletter Bombs are how I deal with them. Shoot from a distance and drop infantry close enough to charge.

Last night, the guy at the table next to me was paying 3 Sicarans against them. Not sure why, but the accelerator autocannons were getting some work done.

The Accel Autocannon has a high rate of fire and doesn't pay a lot for an AP value. It's no wonder it works decently against Knights, but you'd for sure need the rerolls handy for hitting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The fact the Sicaran went down in points with Chapter Approved helps too. You might prefer them to actual Razorbacks at this point for all I know.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Beginning to think that Knights are being meta against now. Alot more heavy weapons are now brought because of knights. Honestly though, a Castellan is still hard to deal with. And don't get me started on the Valiant. That thing is so dangerous to charge, but just as hard to kill with shooting as a Castellan.

How do you guys deal with knight lists?

Sick of fighting them, sick of jiggering lists to deal with them.

Lascannons and Bloodletter Bombs are how I deal with them. Shoot from a distance and drop infantry close enough to charge.

Last night, the guy at the table next to me was paying 3 Sicarans against them. Not sure why, but the accelerator autocannons were getting some work done.

The Accel Autocannon has a high rate of fire and doesn't pay a lot for an AP value. It's no wonder it works decently against Knights, but you'd for sure need the rerolls handy for hitting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The fact the Sicaran went down in points with Chapter Approved helps too. You might prefer them to actual Razorbacks at this point for all I know.

Basically any faction /army that either does not want to bring a knight or can't bring a knight with the required relics is suffering atm.
Take a regular mono IG list, leman russes have no place in it beyond tank commanders because there is so much AT saturation atm that it puts that well priced tank out of commision, in favour of suicide Hellhounds.
Same with ork Battlewagons, or any former heavy tank. It also does not helpt that f.e. space marine tanks are just terrible aswell in most cases.
Additionally since everyone and their mother needs to bring preferably allround weapons with an ap value space marines and other high armor elite armies get the double middlefinger.

orkswubwub wrote:
After all of the FAQ etc. can noise marines still shoot characters if they die outside of their own shooting phase despite character targeting rules? What is the current thought on noise marines? With cover start they get 2+ and the ignore cover rule seems decent, slightly over costed but getting off 1st turn seems to guarantee another turn of shooting and even better if charge goes off... Not sure if it can be competitive...

The CSM FAQ didn’t receive any changes. Go ahead and snipe with blastmasters whenever they get caught with their pants down.

As for thoughts, with wider access to cover, they seem ok. Maybe not undercosted great, but certainly nice. I certainly don’t regret spending ages on a unit

I didn't realize Noise Marines could ignore those targeting restrictions if they die.

Sonic Dreads and a suicide Termite of Noise Marines might be fun.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I didn't realize Noise Marines could ignore those targeting restrictions if they die.

Sonic Dreads and a suicide Termite of Noise Marines might be fun.

Its one of those raw vs rai issues, but even then rai is questionable because if it wasnt working the way they intended you would think that they would have fixex it by now. So yes, at the moment they can shoot chrs when they die. They can also all throw grenades when they die since each one is activated one at a time as its own thing.

I would say if its a tournament do what works, but if its a friendly game i wouldnt do it unless your opponent was fully aware about it. It can come off as a bad taste in your mouth kind of thing.

Azuza001 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I didn't realize Noise Marines could ignore those targeting restrictions if they die.

Sonic Dreads and a suicide Termite of Noise Marines might be fun.

Its one of those raw vs rai issues, but even then rai is questionable because if it wasnt working the way they intended you would think that they would have fixex it by now. So yes, at the moment they can shoot chrs when they die. They can also all throw grenades when they die since each one is activated one at a time as its own thing.

I would say if its a tournament do what works, but if its a friendly game i wouldnt do it unless your opponent was fully aware about it. It can come off as a bad taste in your mouth kind of thing.

I mean you'd never throw a Frag vs using the Blaster, but sometimes a Krak might be a better option. I know about that little tidbit of course, but the character targeting was honestly brand new to me.

Azuza001 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I didn't realize Noise Marines could ignore those targeting restrictions if they die.

Sonic Dreads and a suicide Termite of Noise Marines might be fun.

Its one of those raw vs rai issues, but even then rai is questionable because if it wasnt working the way they intended you would think that they would have fixex it by now. So yes, at the moment they can shoot chrs when they die. They can also all throw grenades when they die since each one is activated one at a time as its own thing.

I would say if its a tournament do what works, but if its a friendly game i wouldnt do it unless your opponent was fully aware about it. It can come off as a bad taste in your mouth kind of thing.

In the first games, i shot with my dying Noise Marines even if the their unit was in 1 inch of an enemy unit
then i just shot with models of that unit that werent in one inch.
Now i am a really friendly gamer and just shoot pistols into the nearest models...
I miss the old times. Yeah its a really fethed up rule, which brings total chaos to the game... i love it!!

Fun fact - if a Loyalist character is munching through your NMs in melee, you can use a Krak Grenade with Music of the Apocalypse - and it benefits from DttFE

I was considering just doing a knight conversion as a base to a kytan because I like the look of knights better. Can't imagine anyone would be too ticked about it since they're both in the same class.