The Power Armor Problem

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**Marmatag**

There is a gulf spanning from my house to England that is comparable in size to the distance between elements of a competitive list, and a true competitive list.

**Bharring**

"Ravagers alone would kill nearly 30 per turn, not even factoring in blasters, poison, etc. "
Wow, that's some really hot rolling.

I assume you hit and wound with every shot. Then charge into CC and get a kill for every attack. Then he rolls terribad for leadership with 10man units?

Isn't Ravagers a max of 18 Dissie shots (3 boats, 2 guns each, 3 shots per gun)?

**Insectum7**

Marmatag wrote:
There is a gulf spanning from my house to England that is comparable in size to the distance between elements of a competitive list, and a true competitive list.

And yet, at the same time you're in the minority of 40K players, play a particular ruleset, and this needs to be understood when we're talking about balance.

**Asherian Command**

Insectum7 wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
There is a gulf spanning from my house to England that is comparable in size to the distance between elements of a competitive list, and a true competitive list.

And yet, at the same time you're in the minority of 40K players, play a particular ruleset, and this needs to be understood when we're talking about balance.

Minority of players or pro-players where the game starts to break as players push the game to its very limits. If there is a fundamental game flaw it becomes more apparent at pro level play.

**Vaktathi**

Marmatag wrote:
God I would love to play someone who spams power armored marines.

Ravagers alone would kill nearly 30 per turn, not even factoring in blasters, poison, etc.

I wouldn't even need Doom.

I'm wondering how, without substantial rerolls or other bonuses, against marines in the open without cover, 3 Ravagers with 3 Disintegrators each are going to average 10 dead marines, not 30. Even with rerolls to hit and wound, you're only averaging 20.

Unless I'm missing something?

**Xenomancers**

Insectum7 wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:
Okay, see this is what I'm talking about. That's exactly the sort of poor, bad faith reasoning that's easily avoided, but you shoot right down that path.

A: Chapter Master upgrade is 3 CP.
B: That 150 points + 3 CP is buffing 90% of my 2000 point army.
C: The Tactical Squad is engaging the Guardsmen at the same time as they engage something else.

So. . . 350 points isn't just squaring off against 40 in a vacuum, as you illustrate it.

If you're going to continue down that path, we're done.

How is that bad faith your assuming that your tactical squad and your army is always in range of those auras! Auras are not board wide they are within a certain range. Assuming that they are always there to buff that squad is disingenious unless you run your whole army as a giant blob. 6 inches! away from your chapter master is nothing and should not be taken into account for every single space marine shot. If it were then space marines would be far better, but they aren't! They always have to be in range and 6 inches is nothing on the board. If you running your army as a blob you cannot capture objectives. a 150 pts + 170 = 320 pts + 65 pts for a LT. thats 385pts investment. Your using up an entire round of shooting of one 170 pt squad at 1 40pt unit.

If you assume it is buffing 90% of your army your clearly not playing space marines.

Or you've never seen me play Space Marines. 90% of my army being buffed is the norm for my games. Only one model from a unit (usually 10 man) needs to be in range for the unit to get the buff. The line could be 30+ inches wide if it needs to be. I wish I didin't feel like I had to blob, but that seems like the most effective thing to do, so that's what I do.

Absolutely - You are doing it right. with Calgar or Gman in my army. Most of my army is getting buffed. A lot of times I will swing chronos out on a flank with 1 squad of intercessors so I can hold and objective and get LOS on something cheaky. I use Scions of Gman a lot on that one unit though. Only missing out on reroll wounds over there. Plus Chornos hits on 2's anyways. This is the key to playing mono space marines. Big units spread out wide with ancient banner and buffs rerolls all over. Not saying it's strong but its the most effective way to play it.

**Sir Heckington**

The solution is to make no difference between Primaris and Mini marines. I'm more than convinced they should all be 2W, 2A, with -1 AP Boltguns.

While I would like to see marines become dedicated squad focused, like primaris, overall, it'd invalidate armies and I ain't about that. I do think it could provide an actual meaningful difference between LSM and CSM other than spikes.

**Xenomancers**

Vaktathi wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
God I would love to play someone who spams power armored marines.

Ravagers alone would kill nearly 30 per turn, not even factoring in blasters, poison, etc.

I wouldn't even need Doom.
I'm wondering how, without substantial rerolls or other bonuses, against marines in the open without cover, 3 Ravagers with 3 Disintegrators each are going to average 10 dead marines, not 30. Even with rerolls to hit and wound, you're only averaging 20.

Unless I'm missing something?

Hes exagerating a little bit. Unless hes also bringing jetfighters with dessie as well.

**Bharring**

"Even with rerolls to hit and wound, you're only averaging 20."
You can't Doom 20 Marines. That's capped at 10. And they're super unlikely to be units of 6+, so really you're just dooming 5.

Also, what reroll-all-misses to DE have?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Hes exagerating a little bit. Unless hes also bringing jetfighters with dessie as well."
Something that averages 10 is 'nearly 30' is not a slight exaggeration. It's a complete whiff of scale.

**dhallnet**

"A little bit" when he can kill nearly 30 marines with 27 shots ?

**Crimson**

Sir Heckington wrote:
The solution is to make no difference between Primaris and Mini marines. I'm more than convinced they should all be 2W, 2A, with -1 AP Boltguns.

While I would like to see marines become dedicated squad focused, like primaris, overall, it'd invalidate armies and I ain't about that. I do think it could provide an actual meaningful difference between LSM and CSM other than spikes.

Well, there could be Hellblaster style special weapon squads for weapons other than the plasma too, and people could form their displaced special weapon guys into those.

**Bharring**

Dhallnet,
You're forgetting CC and morale! They actually *can* kill 30!

**Crimson**

dhallnet wrote:
"A little bit" when he can kill nearly 30 marines with 27 shots ?

See, we are ignoring the morale again! The last three die of that!

**dhallnet**

Bharring wrote:
Dhallnet,
You're forgetting CC and morale! They actually *can* kill 30!

But dakka told me morale was useless !

And yeah, ravager CC of course

**Sir Heckington**

Crimson wrote:
Sir Heckington wrote:
The solution is to make no difference between Primaris and Mini marines. I'm more than convinced they should all be 2W, 2A, with -1 AP Boltguns.

While I would like to see marines become dedicated squad focused, like primaris, overall, it'd invalidate armies and I ain't about that. I do think it could provide an actual meaningful difference between LSM and CSM other than spikes.

Well, there could be Hellblaster style special weapon squads for weapons other than the plasma too, and people could form their displaced special weapon guys into those.

True true, it'd be an odd thing to work with for sure, but I think it'd help alot. Obviously chaos would get the new statline, but I think it'd be cool to see Chaos play drastically different from normal Marines in this case.

**Insectum7**

Asherian Command wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
There is a gulf spanning from my house to England that is comparable in size to the distance between elements of a competitive list, and a true competitive list.

And yet, at the same time you're in the minority of 40K players, play a particular ruleset, and this needs to be understood when we're talking about balance.

Minority of players or pro-players where the game starts to break as players push the game to its very limits. If there is a fundamental game flaw it becomes more apparent at pro level play.

That's only sort of true in this situation. Like has been acknowledged earlier, progressive scoring actually changes quite a bit. And since armies are built to a particular mission type, that skews results when trying to use that data for non ITC.

**Asherian Command**

Sir Heckington wrote:
The solution is to make no difference between Primaris and Mini marines. I'm more than convinced they should all be 2W, 2A, with -1 AP Boltguns.

While I would like to see marines become dedicated squad focused, like primaris, overall, it'd invalidate armies and I ain't about that. I do think it could provide an actual meaningful difference between LSM and CSM other than spikes.

It would be interesting to see honestly, I think giving all squad sarges for space marines +1 wound would help tremendously and -1 AP boltguns, heavy bolters, storm bolters, would help as well. +1 wound for all vets would be nice. And then special rules for tactical squads that make them competitive such as taking an objective entirely from the opponent if they are close to it. Or a bolter drill mechanic for tacticals.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sir Heckington wrote:
Crimson wrote:
Sir Heckington wrote:
The solution is to make no difference between Primaris and Mini marines. I'm more than convinced they should all be 2W, 2A, with -1 AP Boltguns.

While I would like to see marines become dedicated squad focused, like primaris, overall, it'd invalidate armies and I ain't about that. I do think it could provide an actual meaningful difference between LSM and CSM other than spikes.

Well, there could be Hellblaster style special weapon squads for weapons other than the plasma too, and people could form their displaced special weapon guys into those.

True true, it'd be an odd thing to work with for sure, but I think it'd help alot. Obviously chaos would get the new statline, but I think it'd be cool to see Chaos play drastically different from normal Marines in this case.

Give Chaos daemons and better possessed. Bam Instant chaos primaris space marines.

Maybe something similar to the Gal Valrok?

For hellblasters I wouldn't mind a mini-gatling gun.

**epronovost**

dhallnet wrote:
"A little bit" when he can kill nearly 30 marines with 27 shots ?

If I made my calculous well that be 8 dead marines per round on average provided there is no cover. It would be around 30 marines over the span of a 5 turn games on average if you factor in some cover and some ravagers being damaged.

**Xenomancers**

Sir Heckington wrote:
The solution is to make no difference between Primaris and Mini marines. I'm more than convinced they should all be 2W, 2A, with -1 AP Boltguns.

While I would like to see marines become dedicated squad focused, like primaris, overall, it'd invalidate armies and I ain't about that. I do think it could provide an actual meaningful difference between LSM and CSM other than spikes.

A tactical marine should probably be 15 points and be a baseline intercessor with all the tactical gear options and bolters should be ap-1

An intercessor should be like a space marine Ogran WS3 BS3 Str5 T5 3W A3 3+ and should have str 5 ap-1 bolters and ap-1 CC attacks for like 25 points. Instead they have shoehorned primaris into this garbage area that is barely tougher than a 1 wound marine at all. Like half the weapons in the game have d3 or flat 2 damage. Instead we pay that price fro the base statline on an agressor with -1s -1w and -1a. Very weak stuff.

**dhallnet**

epronovost wrote:
dhallnet wrote:
"A little bit" when he can kill nearly 30 marines with 27 shots ?

If I made my calculous well that be 8 dead marines per round on average provided there is no cover. It would be around 30 marines over the span of a 5 turn games on average if you factor in some cover and some ravagers being damaged.

He said 30 per turn though.

**Sir Heckington**

Xenomancers wrote:
Sir Heckington wrote:
The solution is to make no difference between Primaris and Mini marines. I'm more than convinced they should all be 2W, 2A, with -1 AP Boltguns.

While I would like to see marines become dedicated squad focused, like primaris, overall, it'd invalidate armies and I ain't about that. I do think it could provide an actual meaningful difference between LSM and CSM other than spikes.

A tactical marine should probably be 15 points and be a baseline intercessor with all the tactical gear options and bolters should be ap-1

An intercessor should be like a space marine Ogran WS3 BS3 Str5 T5 3W A3 3+ and should have str 5 ap-1 bolters and ap-1 CC attacks for like 25 points. Instead they have shoehorned primaris into this garbage area that is barely tougher than a 1 wound marine at all. Like half the weapons in the game have d3 or flat 2 damage. Instead we pay that price fro the base statline on an agressor with -1s and -1a. Very weak stuff.

Nah, just have no difference between mini Marines and Primaris. There never should have been a difference, they are just new sculpts, thats all they ever should have been. GW should have taken the idea with 8th and gone and upgraded all marines.

**Crimson**

Xenomancers wrote:

A tactical marine should probably be 15 points and be a baseline intercessor with all the tactical gear options and bolters should be ap-1

An intercessor should be like a space marine Ogran WS3 BS3 Str5 T5 3W A3 3+ and should have str 5 ap-1 bolters and ap-1 CC attacks for like 25 points. Instead they have shoehorned primaris into this garbage area that is barely tougher than a 1 wound marine at all. Like half the weapons in the game have d3 or flat 2 damage. Instead we pay that price fro the base statline on an agressor with -1s and -1a. Very weak stuff.

Except you can't do that. Minimarines will be squatted eventually, so Primaris cannot have completely crazy stats, as they will be the standard marines soon enough.

**Xenomancers**

Bharring wrote:
"Even with rerolls to hit and wound, you're only averaging 20."
You can't Doom 20 Marines. That's capped at 10. And they're super unlikely to be units of 6+, so really you're just dooming 5.

Also, what reroll-all-misses to DE have?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Hes exagerating a little bit. Unless hes also bringing jetfighters with dessie as well."
Something that averages 10 is 'nearly 30' is not a slight exaggeration. It's a complete whiff of scale.

No - not really.

Hes getting reroll 1's to hit and wound if he is blackheart. Killing 20 is well within reason if they aren't in cover.

**Tyel**

Pedantry demands.

27 dissie shots with reroll 1s to hit and wound (this is the normal loadout since its , its dead easy to do) would expect to kill 13.6~ marines with average dice. This pretty horrible if they are tacticals - its comical if they are carrying anything heavier than a bolter (although to be fair any marine not carrying a 3++ in the new version of the game is a chump.)
Also non T5 Primaris. (Although obviously if you can kill 10 Aggressors you are laughing all the way to the bank).

Maybe this doesn't sound too bad - but this is literally a quarter of a DE/Eldar army in a 2k list. Have fun with the rest.

**Insectum7**

Xenomancers wrote:
Bharring wrote:
"Even with rerolls to hit and wound, you're only averaging 20."
You can't Doom 20 Marines. That's capped at 10. And they're super unlikely to be units of 6+, so really you're just dooming 5.

Also, what reroll-all-misses to DE have?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Hes exagerating a little bit. Unless hes also bringing jetfighters with dessie as well."
Something that averages 10 is 'nearly 30' is not a slight exaggeration. It's a complete whiff of scale.

No - not really.

Hes getting reroll 1's to hit and wound if he is blackheart. Killing 20 is well within reason if they aren't in cover.

That gets my math about 13.5 kills?

**dhallnet**

Xenomancers wrote:

An intercessor should be like a space marine Ogran WS3 BS3 Str5 T5 3W A3 3+ and should have str 5 ap-1 bolters and ap-1 CC attacks for like 25 points. Instead they have shoehorned primaris into this garbage area that is barely tougher than a 1 wound marine at all. Like half the weapons in the game have d3 or flat 2 damage. Instead we pay that price fro the base statline on an agressor with -1s -1w and -1a. Very weak stuff.

Ogrins are 30/35 points (?) and your Hulk Intercessor seems better from a quick glance. You're quite missing the mark imho with 25pts

**Xenomancers**

Crimson wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:

A tactical marine should probably be 15 points and be a baseline intercessor with all the tactical gear options and bolters should be ap-1

An intercessor should be like a space marine Ogran WS3 BS3 Str5 T5 3W A3 3+ and should have str 5 ap-1 bolters and ap-1 CC attacks for like 25 points. Instead they have shoehorned primaris into this garbage area that is barely tougher than a 1 wound marine at all. Like half the weapons in the game have d3 or flat 2 damage. Instead we pay that price fro the base statline on an agressor with -1s and -1a. Very weak stuff.

Except you can't do that. Minimarines will be squatted eventually, so Primaris cannot have completely crazy stats, as they will be the standard marines soon enough.

Maybe so but a space marine should be more like the stats I listed above anyways - maybe not the 3 wounds profile but if a standard marines has 2 wounds then a primaris would have to have 3. If I could squat secondis right now and make the stats for a primaris marine it would be WS3 BS3 Str5 T5 2W A3 3+ with -1 ap from any weapons attack and theyed be 20 points.

**Bharring**

I don't disagree that Dissies kill Marines well.

I just don't want us trying to rebalance around the "fact" that Ravagers kill 30/round without rerolls.

Also, the 'averaging 20' was rerolling all failed hits and wounds. As Tyel points out, rerolling just 1s is only 13.6.

(None of this is to say Marines are fine or Ravagers/Dissies aren't OP.)

**Xenomancers**

dhallnet wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:

An intercessor should be like a space marine Ogran WS3 BS3 Str5 T5 3W A3 3+ and should have str 5 ap-1 bolters and ap-1 CC attacks for like 25 points. Instead they have shoehorned primaris into this garbage area that is barely tougher than a 1 wound marine at all. Like half the weapons in the game have d3 or flat 2 damage. Instead we pay that price fro the base statline on an agressor with -1s -1w and -1a. Very weak stuff.

Ogrins are 30/35 points (?) and your Hulk Intercessor seems better from a quick glance.

Organs would be pretty bad without their gear giving them tons of autocannon attacks in CC and 1+ save action going on with stratagems. Go ahead and put some geared out bulgrans against my hulk intercessors with stratagems and all available. My marines are going to get wooped.

**dhallnet**

Xenomancers wrote:
dhallnet wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:

An intercessor should be like a space marine Ogran WS3 BS3 Str5 T5 3W A3 3+ and should have str 5 ap-1 bolters and ap-1 CC attacks for like 25 points. Instead they have shoehorned primaris into this garbage area that is barely tougher than a 1 wound marine at all. Like half the weapons in the game have d3 or flat 2 damage. Instead we pay that price fro the base statline on an agressor with -1s -1w and -1a. Very weak stuff.

Ogrins are 30/35 points (?) and your Hulk Intercessor seems better from a quick glance.

Organs would be pretty bad without their gear giving them tons of autocannon attacks in CC and 1+ save action going on with stratagems. Go ahead and put some geared out bulgrans against my hulk intercessors with stratagems and all available. My marines are going to get wooped.

The price was without the gear afaik (they should be 42 with shield+maul). And I'll admit I'm not aware of every shenanigans they can pull. But on paper your profile+loadout seems a bit too much to me for 25 pts. Not that it matters anyway, I get the intent was to show intercessors should be stronger, which I do not completely disagree with but there isn't much space for that (the whole primaris line is trapped between minimarines & custodes)