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 insaniak wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:


Yes and no, since Titanicus wasn't ever hyped by GW themselves as a return of Epic.

This isn't being hyped as a return of Warhammer Fantasy Battles, either... Just a return of the Old World. They've very carefully not called it 'Warhammer Fantasy Battles'...

Perception is reality though. From talking at my FLGS yesterday that is what a lot of people presume it is going to be, and it is entirely possible a lot of those people are going to be disappointed.

Warmaster, unfortunately, doesn't have the winning combo that Epic had. Everything you could run in Warmaster you could already run in WFB proper, you just had a harder to paint micro sized version of it. Epic at least benefitted from the fact that you didn't really have a bunch of the heavier stuff in 40K proper without going Armorcast at the time. Forgeworld as helped that ship sail, and now we basically have NOTHING except the playstyle to draw people to either Warmaster or Epic.

plessiez wrote:They didn't say its the return of Warhammer Fantasy Battle, just the return of the Old World.

I think its very unlikely that this will be coming back as WFB 9th edition with rank-and-file square bases. Firstly, even more of the WFB old world ranges will have gone last-chance-to-buy and disappeared by then. I can't imagine them re-releasing old 7th edition kits in a couple of years time and I can't see them having the capacity to update all the required ranges as new multi-part kits.

Could it be AoS with an old-world setting for whatever kits are left by then? Yes, maybe. That's probably the easiest thing for them to do. But that doesn't seem like it would take that long for them to do.

Could it be a re-scale? If they do a smaller scale they don't need to do multi-part kits which should lead to quicker design. Something Warmaster-y, but obviously not in the Warmaster scale so people have to buy it all again.

You assume that they simply carried out their old molds and slagged them. Look at those Revell kits that were released recently, They dug out some 2nd Ed. to 5th Ed. 40K plastic molds to make stuff to be released through Europe by Revell. If they still have THOSE molds floating around, it isn't unreasonable at all to think that their other plastics aren't floating around as well.

Which reminds me: Dear GW, run off more Talisman/Warhammer Quest plastics. I need the Wizards and characters again, as well as tons of the swarm animals and those monopose MInotaurs please.

Been seeing a few videos on youtube about this.

It's amazing how people can take a vague blog post by a company and make, in at least one case, a 1hr + video from it!?! You've got nothing but that blog post people, and it's not even at all detailed!!

I know everyone’s saying, they never said return of WHFB so it could be Warmaster.
But the whole thing is the marketing of the return of the square base.
Not a tray of figures.
They even showed a base along with it.
That’s was a 20/25mm Base.

Old World and square bases is enough info. Its clearly classic 25mm scale bases they talk about, and the squares are only good for getting the models in old school rank and file units.

GW has proved they still can do 25mm models with the new take of Lord of the Rings -and that game is probably a good hint of what the future old world game wll be like.

Danny76 wrote:
I know everyone’s saying, they never said return of WHFB so it could be Warmaster..

Everyone's not saying that. It's not going to be Warmaster. That doesn't mean it will be WHFB, or that it won't be a different scale.

I wonder, seeing as they probably will design the game to please the biggest possible group interested in Old World, that being Total War players who never played the original, wouldn't it make more sense to make it strategic-scale game, instead of tactical skirmish like WFB was?

Hmm. At around 3 years out it's nothing to get excited about yet.

GW: "In about 3 years we're going to make a new game!"
Me: "Duh, you're GW."

Meanwhile, in the here & now, I've got existing games to play using my fantasy stuff - some AoS, an occasional game of WHFB 3rd - 8th ed (depending upon players), KoW....

 CragHack wrote:
WHFB fared poorly because it was neglected and mostly ignored by GW at that time. Had it received this kind of monstrous attention Sigmar currently has, I've zero doubts it would've been as successful if not even more, because of the well established setting everyone knew and loved.

Please, FW, don't feth it up.

Can we please not indulge in this myth?

Fantasy had about the same amount of support as 40k had. During the period of WHF 6th to 8th, that system received the exact same amount of army books as 40k had codexii for 3rd and 5th, its contemporanies (and more supplements).

In the matter of kits (with my source being warseer's track of warhammer releases) it also got a very similar support. 40k got more but the difference isn't that big: during the period of 2010-2013 fantasy got 106 out of the 220 kits that gw released for the warhammer games (40k and fantasy), or 48% of the warhammer releases. The rate would actually keep a similar pace across time (for example in 2008, they released 23 40k kits vs 20 fantasy kits, but fantasy got more released stuff back in 2009)


And it certainly did not neglect armies that hard.


Bretonnia was left abandoned, lacking an update since 6th... but that was a span of 10 years up until the game's demise. Both blood angels and Dark eldar spent the same time without a codex update, sororitas spent longer.

The following armies, tomb kings and wood elves spent 8 years. For 40k that would be dark angels, space wolves *and* necrons, which would take 9 years to get a codex update.


Fantasy *got* supported the same way the other main system did. To claim otherwise is just utter bad faith.

It is not about Codex updates, talking about that, Warhammer had more Factions that did not got a Codex at all and not just "not a new Codex" and were left with semi-official lists from a previous edition.

It was about model updates in the Core. Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Necrons and so on, had all nice models to fill a minimum Core Tax.

Khemri had early 90ies models with an early 00ies upgrade frame to fill the necessary huge core
Everyone waited for new core models to start that army.

Design changes for the armies without updating all the units was another problem.

than, started with 7th, another reason was that there was no rules support outside of the army books.

Just imagine how well 40k would be received if the Codex FAQ/Errata would just say "we don't make mistakes, everything is intended" (the shitstorm after the Iron Hands Codex would have been big after such a statement, back than it was "at least we got one")

And, GW tried to make more profit by increasing amounts of models needed and reduced the amount of them in a Box.

They tried the same with Lord of the Rings, but here people playing that game were not identical with the Warhammer crowed and most of the historical players, the community collapsed the day after the price change (not only did the stopped buying stuff, they stopped playing the game at all)

The core of the Warhammer community lasted a little bit longer but most people left already at the beginning of 8th as they saw were the game was going and the left overs were not enough to keep up the profit even with higher margin.



Endtimes was a big push in popularity of the game, in sales and playtime, showing what a little more support can do and because of that people hoped for a new Warhammer and instead got AoS.

If GW would have treated Fantasy like 40k, and revamp 8th after 2 years (as they did with 6th 40k) or 1 year (like with AoS), tried to balance the game (like with 40k and AoS) would have updated factions with models and rules like they do now with AoS
The game would have never died

But instead they decided to make AoS soon after 8th release (3-4 years are needed for new plastic models with new designs, so 8th and the Warhammer community was left to die)

I think people are reading the square base post a bit too literally. I think its just that the Warhammer Community team - who probably have about as much information as us at this point - had to run with something so they went with something iconic from the old world that they could make a pun out of.

 kodos wrote:

than, started with 7th, another reason was that there was no rules support outside of the army books.

Just imagine how well 40k would be received if the Codex FAQ/Errata would just say "we don't make mistakes, everything is intended" (the shitstorm after the Iron Hands Codex would have been big after such a statement, back than it was "at least we got one")

40k went through the same FAQ dry spell.

There were multiple factors in WHFBs demise, but ultimately from what I saw it was more a rules issue than a rules support issue that killed it. People just didn't like the game that it had become.

Mordheim!

plessiez wrote:
They didn't say its the return of Warhammer Fantasy Battle, just the return of the Old World.

I think its very unlikely that this will be coming back as WFB 9th edition with rank-and-file square bases. Firstly, even more of the WFB old world ranges will have gone last-chance-to-buy and disappeared by then. I can't imagine them re-releasing old 7th edition kits in a couple of years time and I can't see them having the capacity to update all the required ranges as new multi-part kits.

Could it be AoS with an old-world setting for whatever kits are left by then? Yes, maybe. That's probably the easiest thing for them to do. But that doesn't seem like it would take that long for them to do.

Could it be a re-scale? If they do a smaller scale they don't need to do multi-part kits which should lead to quicker design. Something Warmaster-y, but obviously not in the Warmaster scale so people have to buy it all again.

GW have even recently massively expanded their production capacity, also the Horus Heresy is arguably going to end in some fashion in the next few years, they simply have no content left unless they go into weirdness like creating Interex armies. I wouldn't be surprised if they did have the capacity now - question is whether it'll be Forge World or plastics, the wording in the article seems to suggest it'll be done by the central studio, which is a massive indication of their commitment, but it's not clear enough to confirm that.

They've already confirmed on FB that we should expect plenty of new models:

 insaniak wrote:

 kodos wrote:

than, started with 7th, another reason was that there was no rules support outside of the army books.

Just imagine how well 40k would be received if the Codex FAQ/Errata would just say "we don't make mistakes, everything is intended" (the shitstorm after the Iron Hands Codex would have been big after such a statement, back than it was "at least we got one")

40k went through the same FAQ dry spell.

There were multiple factors in WHFBs demise, but ultimately from what I saw it was more a rules issue than a rules support issue that killed it. People just didn't like the game that it had become.

40k had the same issues, but the also the better rules by that time.
Having 3 different profiles for same weapons was less of an issue then Beastman need to rank up 4 wide after the minimum width was changed to 5.

and 40k got some changes after the new game was not well received, while Fantasy did not

and yes I agree that the game became something people did not like, this is why I can see them still fail here.
If they take 8th Edition as a base to move on, they are only targeting the small group that liked that game, and most of those play 9th Age now

starting with 6th again and this can be huge

 Hulksmash wrote:
I would love to see a 10-15mm release for the old world. I don't think I could contain my joy at plastics in that size range. Warmaster release would be amazing. The only downside would be no "warmaster" style release in AoS which would be epic give that it feels even more suited to mass apoc sized battles than wfb.

It actually makes financial sense to do WFB in the 10-15mm and not AoS. That way it wouldn't in theory cannibalize sales from AoS but they could use the old world.

Ten again AOS groups don't really look like organized armies going to war. More like individual gung ho warriors fighting so for them skirmish battles is appropriate. Old world armies looked like...well organized armies rather than ninja wannabes on 1 on 1 duel

What turned me off on fantasy was the amount of miniatures you needed for effective units, the associated cost to purchase and paint those units and the complexity of the rules, in that order.

One core unit in WHFB could be 30-50% of an entire 40k army in some instances.

Londinium wrote:

 Aesthete wrote:
Sources on the internet (i.e. one post I made on my blog with exactly 0% basis in anything) predict that the new game will be in 15-18 mm.

Because that would totally make sense.

Every game around that scale that GW has tried has died, it simply doesn't allow for much in the way of hobby activities such as conversions and interesting paint jobs, beyond the truly huge units and we now have Adeptus Titanicus for that. Plus the miniatures look god awful.

If WHFB isn't in standard GW scale, I'll eat my hat. The rules could be anything from WHFB 9e to AoS with Old World factions (I'd err more towards the former, as GW needs to differentiate it's games) but the scale will be the usual. It totally undermines the nostalgia pitch if you make it Warmaster 2.0, which frankly is something only internet nerds could come to, given the heavy emphasis on square bases in the marketing and what a commercial non-entity the original Warmaster was.

Simple way to solve the financial aspect of it, is to make 9e use the same kind of model numbers as 6e. Still likely expensive but not the ridiculous money sink that 8th was.

So go for smaller. 6mm has been succesfull with GW before until GW either screws with rules(Epic40000) or kills off non sales related(epic armageddon that outsold GW's own expectations by 400%).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
15mm?
At GW's ability to giant size everything, it would mean the figures might fit nicely with everyone elses 25-28mm models.

All I see in reality is GW making a few collectable ltd edition models and a rulebook for the older gamers to keep the IP alive and their possesion.
That way, they keep the IP and licence it out to make phone apps, pc games and rpgs.

If that was the case why waste time thwidling thumbs just for fun of it? Because if they went what you say no way it would take 3+ years.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

N3p3nth3 wrote:
IIRC MESBG units went down in price with the new edition. So having cheaper rank and file while rakingbin with popula characters is not outside the realm of possibility and in fact the apparent success of MESBG might be another reason for this, especially as both AOS and MESBG are skirmish games...

Correct. And they have been making things actually CHEAPER there recently bundling stuff together and slapping in hefty discounts(like with the ringwraiths). MSGB is rare beast in GW games that it actually is getting cheaper rather than more expensive to collect it...

 kodos wrote:

If they take 8th Edition as a base to move on, they are only targeting the small group that liked that game, and most of those play 9th Age now

starting with 6th again and this can be huge

I very much doubt it will be based on a previous WHFB system. Far more likely for it to be a revised version of the AoS rules with unit formation rules bolted on.

Sounds great and pretty obvious - they have the molds for pretty much everything and a lot of the elite model kits would be pretty recent and good so they can just concentrate on the parts they want to without having to redo full ranges all at once. Plus they would be cross over between some AoS stuff- the new Slaves to Darkness start collecting would fit in well with the old chaos warriors. They could do campaign books like War Of the Beard etc as well- makes a lot of sense as there will still be a lot of demand for it and it can sit beside AoS asa compliment rather than in competition.
Pretty pleased my Dwarfs might have a place again while I still have my Kharadrons for AoS.

 kodos wrote:
I
Khemri had early 90ies models with an early 00ies upgrade frame to fill the necessary huge core

No it did not. The Skellybob box they were based on came out in 1998.

If it does wind up being a ranked unit game, and if it does stay the same scale, there will be minimal model crossover from AoS, for the simple reason that AoS models haven't been designed to rank up.

That was one of the design constraints from WHFB that moving to loose formations was able to address.

 insaniak wrote:

 kodos wrote:

If they take 8th Edition as a base to move on, they are only targeting the small group that liked that game, and most of those play 9th Age now

starting with 6th again and this can be huge

I very much doubt it will be based on a previous WHFB system. Far more likely for it to be a revised version of the AoS rules with unit formation rules bolted on.

It would be less work to start from a previous edition of whfb or even from scratch than to try and make AoS a fully featured wargame.

 insaniak wrote:

 kodos wrote:

If they take 8th Edition as a base to move on, they are only targeting the small group that liked that game, and most of those play 9th Age now

starting with 6th again and this can be huge

I very much doubt it will be based on a previous WHFB system. Far more likely for it to be a revised version of the AoS rules with unit formation rules bolted on.

They have used old rules for the re-release of other Specialist Games as well

And going the retro-route with new rules but old background does not really make sense.

Lord Kragan wrote:

 CragHack wrote:
WHFB fared poorly because it was neglected and mostly ignored by GW at that time. Had it received this kind of monstrous attention Sigmar currently has, I've zero doubts it would've been as successful if not even more, because of the well established setting everyone knew and loved.

Please, FW, don't feth it up.

Can we please not indulge in this myth?

Fantasy had about the same amount of support as 40k had. During the period of WHF 6th to 8th, that system received the exact same amount of army books as 40k had codexii for 3rd and 5th, its contemporanies (and more supplements).

In the matter of kits (with my source being warseer's track of warhammer releases) it also got a very similar support. 40k got more but the difference isn't that big: during the period of 2010-2013 fantasy got 106 out of the 220 kits that gw released for the warhammer games (40k and fantasy), or 48% of the warhammer releases. The rate would actually keep a similar pace across time (for example in 2008, they released 23 40k kits vs 20 fantasy kits, but fantasy got more released stuff back in 2009)


And it certainly did not neglect armies that hard.


Bretonnia was left abandoned, lacking an update since 6th... but that was a span of 10 years up until the game's demise. Both blood angels and Dark eldar spent the same time without a codex update, sororitas spent longer.

The following armies, tomb kings and wood elves spent 8 years. For 40k that would be dark angels, space wolves *and* necrons, which would take 9 years to get a codex update.


Fantasy *got* supported the same way the other main system did. To claim otherwise is just utter bad faith.

You mean the 40k that GW nearly killed with their greed, bad rules and mismanagment, the largest difference being the buy in for fantasy was huge by design.

I am with Kragan on this, the Fantasy IP is much much better than AOS and I like the newer AOS stuff, had it had the marketing that GW uses now it would be at least as popular as AOS.

tneva82 wrote:

N3p3nth3 wrote:
IIRC MESBG units went down in price with the new edition. So having cheaper rank and file while rakingbin with popula characters is not outside the realm of possibility and in fact the apparent success of MESBG might be another reason for this, especially as both AOS and MESBG are skirmish games...

Correct. And they have been making things actually CHEAPER there recently bundling stuff together and slapping in hefty discounts(like with the ringwraiths). MSGB is rare beast in GW games that it actually is getting cheaper rather than more expensive to collect it...

It also happens to be run by run by a semi-independent small team of people who are fully immersed in the community. Their plans for future releases appear to be based on a combination of stuff that they happen to be very excited about themselves, and things they know the community would like. A big gripe some time ago was the unavailability of many miniatures, making playing some armies very difficult. Within a year or two, they brought a pile of figures back into production, and as they struggled with stock and production, released another bunch in what may well be the largest Made-to-Order wave GW has done so far.
Same ruleswise; the latest edition and profile revision included pretty much everything fans have been asking for for years.

It's almost as if knowing what people want and being passionate about it yourself can actually be pretty darn efficient for a business.

Some thoughts.

1. I trust FW far, far more to do the Fantasy World justice than I do 'GW prime'. They do lore really well. They honor the past, they don't steamroller it.
2. FW, or more specifically, Specialist Games, which I'd imagine this would fall under, does plastics, so all of those crying out that it will be entire resin armies are unlikely to be correct.
3. The FW crowd love the obscure stuff, so zoats and fimir and Nippon ninja mercs ahoy!
4. I'm very curious as to how certain units would be handled, such as say Witch Elves, where they now have a strong showing in AoS. Duel boxes featuring both bases seems unlikely as GW doesn't seem to like crossing the streams between their various games.
5. For all of those saying 'I rebased now what do I do?' You get a new army for WHFB. I sold all my old armies off a while back, I'm totally ready to return to a brand new army, I have so many ideas rattling around in my head.
6. GW, for all it's faults, does seem damned, 'they never tell us what they're doing' vs 'why are they telling us what they're doing in 3 years time?', I prefer to know and wait (and start saving some cash towards my army, whatever it will be...).
7. I don't play the Mantic game, but since it was designed to pick up disgruntled WHFB players, there should be nothing stopping an easy reverse engineering to armies to make them viable in both games.
8. I cannot tell you how totally over the moon(s) I am that the world I loved so much will live again. Skarsnik, Settra, Vlad and Isobella, Thrott, Kemmler, Marius Lietdorf, The Ice Queen, Genevieve, Valkia, Brunner and a vast host of others will be back.

I know there is a wait ahead, but I'm so bloody happy. I tried and tried to get into AoS and it just never clicked with me, I certainly don't begrudge others really enjoying it, but it wasn't for me. I'm totally ready for WHFB to come back.

 insaniak wrote:
If it does wind up being a ranked unit game, and if it does stay the same scale, there will be minimal model crossover from AoS, for the simple reason that AoS models haven't been designed to rank up.

That was one of the design constraints from WHFB that moving up loose formations was able to address.

For the last decade half the bloody WHFB models didn’t rank up either.

At this point, isn't it safer to just start basing models on square bases, if you prefer WHF to AOS? Since you're allowed to use any base in AOS, and we don't know whether we'll have LOTR movement trays to use AOS models in the eventually WHF

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
If it does wind up being a ranked unit game, and if it does stay the same scale, there will be minimal model crossover from AoS, for the simple reason that AoS models haven't been designed to rank up.

That was one of the design constraints from WHFB that moving up loose formations was able to address.

For the last decade half the bloody WHFB models didn’t rank up either.

Just look at the new Slaves to Darkness models. There’s no way they’re going back to static models like the old chaos warriors. And if they did who would buy them over the new ones? GW are too proud of their quality. This isn’t the same as pushing old stuff out through toy shops to kids. I just can’t see them proudly re-releasing a bunch of 7 year old kits in 3 years time.