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I feel like it was widely accepted that Fantasy was prohibitively expensive and time consuming to play as opposed to 40k, getting even more expensive during the latter years around the release of Witch Elves, the new Dwarfs, ect..., where ten model boxes went for $50.

Since then prices have only increased. I just looked at a getting started box of Dwarfs that was $100 for 10 men, a gyrocopter, and 2 characters. I can't even imagine what prices will look like 3 years from now.

I'm happy it's coming back, and I will certainly keep an eye out for new models to add (The new goblin wolf riders from Beastgrave are amazing), but I don't feel like GW will address the problems that likely ushered in its demise in the first place.

I'm happy to be wrong, but rank and file games need lots of models. At current pricing that is going to turn away a lot of people.

Even though I'm bitter about the world being blown up, I'm just as happy playing AOS with Old World models on an Old World table. I feel like a circle based "skirmish" game was really what they needed in the first place.

10 to 15mm is a bit too small in my opinion. 18mm would be the best compromise between the ability to field large blocks of troops and big monsters in a reasonable gaming space and still keep the detail that GW is known for on their minis.

I hope they stick to 28mm. I neked some propebly sized Necropolis knights.

But that's the problem, it's a compromise and so doesn't really please anybody.

28-32mm is the sweet spot for highly detailed miniatures that still get put on the table in enough numbers to at least pretend you're fighting a battle rather than having a pub brawl.

6-10mm is the sweet spot for having big impressive forces that still have sufficient detail that you can tell different types of unit apart.

Going right in the middle results in armies that don't look that much bigger than 32mm, while also not approaching them in detail.

I'm unconvinced by the idea they'll be going for a smaller scale. It removes any cross-compatibility with their other main ranges, it removes any potential to cross-sell people on a new version of Mordheim if they eventually choose to do that, and it makes the whole thing reek of a cynical desire to invalidate existing collections of WHFB models. But, if they did decide to go smaller, I'd rather they go whole hog and do 6-10mm.

IMHO: There is no way GW would change the scale for Fantasy. The whole point of bringing something back is to flirt with retro feelings.

Also Scale Creep at GW is going in the opposite direction as they love to show off their designs (on big minis) using plastic injection tech that crushes the competition. No other miniature wargaming company is even close.

This said I do not think they will bring back mass battle in 28+ mm either as this would be too expensive - and the paint process would kill the hype.

What I do think we will see is boxed releases (New games, Mordheim, Warhammer Quest, etc.) set in the Old World - as well as reprinted BL books.

 Strombones wrote:
I feel like it was widely accepted that Fantasy was prohibitively expensive and time consuming to play as opposed to 40k, getting even more expensive during the latter years around the release of Witch Elves, the new Dwarfs, ect..., where ten model boxes went for $50.

Since then prices have only increased. I just looked at a getting started box of Dwarfs that was $100 for 10 men, a gyrocopter, and 2 characters. I can't even imagine what prices will look like 3 years from now.

I'm happy it's coming back, and I will certainly keep an eye out for new models to add (The new goblin wolf riders from Beastgrave are amazing), but I don't feel like GW will address the problems that likely ushered in its demise in the first place.

I'm happy to be wrong, but rank and file games need lots of models. At current pricing that is going to turn away a lot of people.

Even though I'm bitter about the world being blown up, I'm just as happy playing AOS with Old World models on an Old World table. I feel like a circle based "skirmish" game was really what they needed in the first place.

This is, in a nutshell, why I don't care at all about this announcement. Despite being interested in WFB...I could never afford or stomach buying an army back in the day. With GW's current prices? Absolutely out of the question. Within 2-3 years we'll be looking at $60 as a standard price for 10 models. A "regiment" of 30 Empire spearmen? That could be a $180 purchase which is fething insane for a wargame. Even more so considering there are more and more plastic fantasy alternatives which are still $35 for 25-40 miniatures. I don't see how GW can support a mass rank and file game with their current pricing. That means we'd either see cheaper prices (which would immediately make more people question the other GW lines) or...some alternative will have to exist.

I simply cannot fathom GW thinking the market exists to support this and AoS at current GW boxed prices, etc.

They'll change the scale, solving the pricing issue, and the fallout will be nuclear...

I certainly don't see them messing with the scale, but they will enlarge it enough to bring the old WFB scale inline with the new models. If it's true WFB they bring back, they will probably stick with 5th/6th edition sized units. 20 man units will be the norm.

No way will they want smaller models or sets of 20+ models on sale against AoS models, as people will start proxying in those cheaper & smaller models for AoS units. Whilst there is nothing wrong with this as a hobbyist (I use a lot of proxies & cheap alternatives myself quite happily) it will knock sales of AoS and have a lot of AoS purists or even tournament players getting annoyed that people are using these cheaper/smaller 'alternatives'. Much like people don't really accept the use of lord of the rings models in AoS or WFB.

 kendoka wrote:


What I do think we will see is boxed releases (New games, Mordheim, Warhammer Quest, etc.) set in the Old World - as well as reprinted BL books.

If it's not true WFB coming back, then this would be the best thing we could hope for. That would be enough old world models for characters and terrain to still be able to get a real old world feel from our games, even if we are stuck using alternative models (not a bad thing at all)

 kendoka wrote:
IMHO: There is no way GW would change the scale for Fantasy. The whole point of bringing something back is to flirt with retro feelings.

There's no indication that this is WHFB. All we know is that it is based in the Old World and will use square bases. We don't have enough information to say what this game is, or if it will even be the same game as GW currently envisions it when it is finally released 3+ years from now.

WHFB fared poorly because it was neglected and mostly ignored by GW at that time. Had it received this kind of monstrous attention Sigmar currently has, I've zero doubts it would've been as successful if not even more, because of the well established setting everyone knew and loved.

Please, FW, don't feth it up.

Before Adeptus Titanicus I would have said that there's no way they would change the scale by anything significant. Now, I'm less sure they won't do so to force people to buy the new models and corresponding newly scaled terrain.

 Aesthete wrote:
Sources on the internet (i.e. one post I made on my blog with exactly 0% basis in anything) predict that the new game will be in 15-18 mm.

Because that would totally make sense.

Every game around that scale that GW has tried has died, it simply doesn't allow for much in the way of hobby activities such as conversions and interesting paint jobs, beyond the truly huge units and we now have Adeptus Titanicus for that. Plus the miniatures look god awful.

If WHFB isn't in standard GW scale, I'll eat my hat. The rules could be anything from WHFB 9e to AoS with Old World factions (I'd err more towards the former, as GW needs to differentiate it's games) but the scale will be the usual. It totally undermines the nostalgia pitch if you make it Warmaster 2.0, which frankly is something only internet nerds could come to, given the heavy emphasis on square bases in the marketing and what a commercial non-entity the original Warmaster was.

Simple way to solve the financial aspect of it, is to make 9e use the same kind of model numbers as 6e. Still likely expensive but not the ridiculous money sink that 8th was.

Londinium wrote:

 Aesthete wrote:
Sources on the internet (i.e. one post I made on my blog with exactly 0% basis in anything) predict that the new game will be in 15-18 mm.

Because that would totally make sense.

Every game around that scale that GW has tried has died, it slightly doesn't allow for much in the way of hobby activities. Plus the miniatures look god awful.

If WHFB isn't in standard GW scale, I'll eat my hat. The rules could be anything from WHFB 9e to AoS with Old World factions (I'd err more towards the former, as GW needs to differentiate it's games) but the scale will be the usual. It totally undermines the nostalgia pitch if you make it Warmaster 2.0, which frankly is something only internet nerds could come to, given what a commercial non-entity the original Warmaster was.

Simple way to solve the financial aspect of it, is to make 9e use the same kind of model numbers as 6e. Still likely expensive but not the ridiculous money sink that 8th was.

We are at a different time than we were back in the day when smaller scale mass battle games died. GW has shown the detail they can get on 8mm models in plastic. GW has also shown they're supporting their mainline games now. We see regular releases for anything they do in plastic (LotR, AoS, 40k, Titanicus, Necromunda, Shadespire, etc). with all of those being over a year old with consistent releases. I think part of this is to build it up properly, it'll also diffuse a lot of the damage of a fresh drop if they take 3 years to introduce and show what they're doing. That's the main reason I see why it's taking 3 years.

I'd argue Kings of War is a terrible 28mm game even with model minimums closer to 6th ed fantasy. It shines at 10mm too. Bear in mind that even with 6th ed numbers for models we'd still be looking at crazy pricing by the time this drops.

 Hulksmash wrote:
I would love to see a 10-15mm release for the old world. I don't think I could contain my joy at plastics in that size range. Warmaster release would be amazing. The only downside would be no "warmaster" style release in AoS which would be epic give that it feels even more suited to mass apoc sized battles than wfb.

It actually makes financial sense to do WFB in the 10-15mm and not AoS. That way it wouldn't in theory cannibalize sales from AoS but they could use the old world.

I'd love this so much!! As others have noted, games like KoW also would benefit from this.

For folks commenting on detail, look at the Joan of Arc models to see what's possible at a smaller scale in plastic now. And GW is the best in the business - they'd do it even better.

Here's hoping

 Hulksmash wrote:

I'd argue Kings of War is a terrible 28mm game even with model minimums closer to 6th ed fantasy. It shines at 10mm too. Bear in mind that even with 6th ed numbers for models we'd still be looking at crazy pricing by the time this drops.

The problem with KoW for me isn't the number of models so much as the fact that the individual models don't actually matter. It does feel like it was designed more as a mass-battles game that was inexplicably produced in 28mm instead.

I'd hate to see WHFB go down that road, both from a rules perspective, and because I have no interest in painting smaller scale models.

insaniak wrote:Before Adeptus Titanicus I would have said that there's no way they would change the scale by anything significant. Now, I'm less sure they won't do so to force people to buy the new models and corresponding newly scaled terrain.

Thats an odd sort of beast though. The original AT was that scale as the plastic tech at the time wasn't like what we have now. They couldn't make the type of kits they do now, the old titans are tiny because that is all they could make at the time. They were 1:500 scale, where as the rest of the range was between 1:285 and 1:300 scale.
The new titans and terrain are the correct scale for Epic models and work brilliantly with the old stuff. While the 'new' scale does force people to buy new models, this time I don't really think that it was the driving force between this decision. They went with the larger scale as they future proofed the game in case the brought marines out for Epic later on so we could use the titans.

That and some people have played the new rules with old models and the game runs fine. (I also think the new terrain only seems big because people build the kits big)

Londinium wrote:

Spoiler:

 Aesthete wrote:
Sources on the internet (i.e. one post I made on my blog with exactly 0% basis in anything) predict that the new game will be in 15-18 mm.

Because that would totally make sense.

Every game around that scale that GW has tried has died, it simply doesn't allow for much in the way of hobby activities such as conversions and interesting paint jobs, beyond the truly huge units and we now have Adeptus Titanicus for that. Plus the miniatures look god awful.

If WHFB isn't in standard GW scale, I'll eat my hat. The rules could be anything from WHFB 9e to AoS with Old World factions (I'd err more towards the former, as GW needs to differentiate it's games) but the scale will be the usual. It totally undermines the nostalgia pitch if you make it Warmaster 2.0, which frankly is something only internet nerds could come to, given the heavy emphasis on square bases in the marketing and what a commercial non-entity the original Warmaster was.

Simple way to solve the financial aspect of it, is to make 9e use the same kind of model numbers as 6e. Still likely expensive but not the ridiculous money sink that 8th was.

Whilst I agree that that the larger scale is more GWs thing and certainly appeals to a larger fan base due to conversions & paint jobs, if GW wanted to they could make a 6mm scale WFB and it would outshine old WFB by miles. 6mm scale fantasy has some fantastic fantasy lines from garage companies and they don't have thousands of £$€ to chuck at moulds. 6mm sci-fi is in a golden age, the quality of the models is insane compared to what we had 15 or even 10 years ago.

Not every game has died. GW has done some pretty poor management of the small scale games, but Epic has remained strong enough without support that there are whole companies based around making models to use with the various editions. I'm sure that GW bringing AT back is in some way to do with Epic keeping such a large fan base, even after support was totally wiped out.

I very much doubt this is going to be warmaster, I think they they would have dropped a hint that it was going to be a small scale game if so, simple to avoid people getting fired up. But with the quality we have with 6mm scale, 10mm scale warmaster being redone would be amazing.

Londinium wrote:

Every game around that scale that GW has tried has died,

The reality is nearly every game GW has ever made has died, I'm not sure scale is a factor.

Some of those games are being resurrected, a couple for more than the first occasion, so we're yet to see if they last in a modern climate.

I would prefer they do Old World in 28-32mm, and look into reviving Warmaster in 10-12mm scale. I would like a 15mm official version of fantasy, but I am likely in the minority there.

Frankly a moot point. I have about 12,000 points of Skaven I have never rebased since my friends don’t care about base styles, so if the Rank and File comes back, I’m good. If not, I still have a massive Skaven horde usable in whatever system. I’ll just happily wait for new models.

15mm?
At GW's ability to giant size everything, it would mean the figures might fit nicely with everyone elses 25-28mm models.

All I see in reality is GW making a few collectable ltd edition models and a rulebook for the older gamers to keep the IP alive and their possesion.
That way, they keep the IP and licence it out to make phone apps, pc games and rpgs.

Put me down for 28mm models, apocalpyse scale armies and based off Warmaster's system of command roles, but with unit specific roles to hit and resist damage.

Though I'd love a return to 6th edition, where my Dark Elves could play the psychology rules like a fiddle to take on mortal armies much larger than them.
A greenskin rout is a fundamental part of old warhammer for me (though if it were countered against a chance that they'd just get angry and surge forward - that might make the game more fun for both people).

AngryAngel80 wrote:

Chikout wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
As an old world lover, this is great. However, let me say if they do this right I'm all on board 100,000%.

That said, how far away its to be sounded a little tongue in cheek, dry humor. I'd be willing to bet we will see it much sooner than 3 years from now. Just my hunch. Makes no sense to announce it so far out, and say how far away it is in great detail, feel like a touch of the english wit on display.

No, this is not the kind of thing a company makes jokes about. If anything they are lowballing that number. When gw said Sisters of Battle in 2019 emperor willing, they meant just a taste in 2019 but most stuff in 2020.
I think summer 2023 is a likely date.
I think the early announcement is so they can do a slow drip of news as they have done for the sisters.

Hey, we live in rumors, but it just doesn't make any sense to announce it so far in advance.

I really doubt the slow drip of news, 3 years is way too long a time table to build hype, if it was a year, I'd say probably, but 3 or 4 ? No way, so my money is on it being further along than the statement and them being all like " Ha ha fooled you ! See we were full of sneaky schemes ! "

They love their jokes in GW. Just my opinion however, could be wrong but I guess we'll see in time.

The drip feed of news will start 18 months out or so.
So we may not hear anything else for ages now. It’s just the announcement.

Do you not remember the TV show news breaking?

A change in scale and not making it play near enough to older editions would make this game DOA. Doing so would only serve to kill the nostalgia sales and split the already heavily fractured vet community even further. You'll draw in people coming in from Total War and die hards that need a supported system sure, but it will also drive away the core base of players/buyers they're looking to bring back into the fold.

 Platuan4th wrote:
A change in scale and not making it play near enough to older editions would make this game DOA. Doing so would only serve to kill the nostalgia sales and split the already heavily fractured vet community even further. You'll draw in people coming in from Total War and die hards that need a supported system sure, but it will also drive away the core base of players/buyers they're looking to bring back into the fold.

The same could have been said about Adeptus Titanicus, but that seems to have not been the case.

 insaniak wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
A change in scale and not making it play near enough to older editions would make this game DOA. Doing so would only serve to kill the nostalgia sales and split the already heavily fractured vet community even further. You'll draw in people coming in from Total War and die hards that need a supported system sure, but it will also drive away the core base of players/buyers they're looking to bring back into the fold.

The same could have been said about Adeptus Titanicus, but that seems to have not been the case.

Yes and no, since Titanicus wasn't ever hyped by GW themselves as a return of Epic.

 Strombones wrote:
I feel like it was widely accepted that Fantasy was prohibitively expensive and time consuming to play as opposed to 40k, getting even more expensive during the latter years around the release of Witch Elves, the new Dwarfs, ect..., where ten model boxes went for $50.

Since then prices have only increased. I just looked at a getting started box of Dwarfs that was $100 for 10 men, a gyrocopter, and 2 characters. I can't even imagine what prices will look like 3 years from now.

I'm happy it's coming back, and I will certainly keep an eye out for new models to add (The new goblin wolf riders from Beastgrave are amazing), but I don't feel like GW will address the problems that likely ushered in its demise in the first place.

I'm happy to be wrong, but rank and file games need lots of models. At current pricing that is going to turn away a lot of people.

Even though I'm bitter about the world being blown up, I'm just as happy playing AOS with Old World models on an Old World table. I feel like a circle based "skirmish" game was really what they needed in the first place.

IIRC MESBG units went down in price with the new edition. So having cheaper rank and file while rakingbin with popula characters is not outside the realm of possibility and in fact the apparent success of MESBG might be another reason for this, especially as both AOS and MESBG are skirmish games...

I think a new fantasy would be good if it was made with the intent a small unit was a box, and a large was 2 and no bigger.

With the rules being deep enough that you do not end up with any one unit being the only real important one.
If they did it at a scale other than 28 I would ignore it if it was not amazing probably.

It could be, and I could very easily be wrong but sometimes I like the far off guess sometimes they actually turn out to be right.

Though if this is just a different scale old world based thing, it's a hard pass for me and I'd be sad. So still wishing it would be a rebuild of WHFB for my old armies that I still have kicking about.

kendoka wrote:IMHO: There is no way GW would change the scale for Fantasy. The whole point of bringing something back is to flirt with retro feelings.

Also Scale Creep at GW is going in the opposite direction as they love to show off their designs (on big minis) using plastic injection tech that crushes the competition. No other miniature wargaming company is even close.

This said I do not think they will bring back mass battle in 28+ mm either as this would be too expensive - and the paint process would kill the hype.

What I do think we will see is boxed releases (New games, Mordheim, Warhammer Quest, etc.) set in the Old World - as well as reprinted BL books.

I can't see GW switching the scale for Warhammer Fantasy. Then again, I also couldn't see them getting rid of Warhammer Fantasy, or bringing Warhammer Fantasy back, so.. who the heck knows.

In theory, applying their excellent figure sculpting and casting technology to a smaller scale could also be quite novel. Upon entry, they could easily start to dominate the far less crowded market of 10-15mm Fantasy. With good sculpts and nice paintjobs, a table full of those is an incredibly impressive sight, and far more viable to get on the table in terms of effort and especially money.

That said, I like your last idea. The current market is one of many skirmish games, and this could scratch the itch of old Warhammer quite well. No need for large armies, no need for GW to keep enormous amount of stock, limited overlap with AoS, and making full use of the strong pull of narrative moments in the setting, one of the greatest strengths of Warhammer Fantasy. One downside is that these are typically quite limited in scope, and people will no doubt want to see their favourite faction and favourite character return as soon as possible. And of course, it doesn't hold the same nostalgia as blocks of infantry.. nor indeed does it really require square bases. Square bases are to rank up blocks of infantry.

Londinium wrote:

 Aesthete wrote:
Sources on the internet (i.e. one post I made on my blog with exactly 0% basis in anything) predict that the new game will be in 15-18 mm.

Because that would totally make sense.

Every game around that scale that GW has tried has died, it simply doesn't allow for much in the way of hobby activities such as conversions and interesting paint jobs, beyond the truly huge units and we now have Adeptus Titanicus for that. Plus the miniatures look god awful.

I'd contest that point. While there is less space for effects than in 28mm, models half that size can hold plenty of detail and obviously allow for variant colour schemes - besides which, many people like to use prescribed standard uniform colours anyway, if they don't see painting as a chore rather than a joy anyway. As it happens, I've heard those Contrast paints seem to work very well at 10-15mm. At any rate, the effect is one of scale rather than individual detail.

Anyway, here are some figures I painted a couple of years ago (yes, they are historical figures now in the service of Kislev. Gotta scratch that itch somehow!). I am by no means a world-class painter, and the miniatures are among the better, but probably not quite strictly the very best ones out there - and these are only 10mm scale. Looks pretty decent as far as I'm concerned; I've seen worse in 28mm... Now, imagine a table full of them. Those bases are just 1.25cm wide, so you can fit rather a few on a table! I struggle to see how it wouldn't appeal. Though again, I don't think GW would go for it.. but at some level, it wouldn't necessarily be a terrible idea.

They didn't say its the return of Warhammer Fantasy Battle, just the return of the Old World.

I think its very unlikely that this will be coming back as WFB 9th edition with rank-and-file square bases. Firstly, even more of the WFB old world ranges will have gone last-chance-to-buy and disappeared by then. I can't imagine them re-releasing old 7th edition kits in a couple of years time and I can't see them having the capacity to update all the required ranges as new multi-part kits.

Could it be AoS with an old-world setting for whatever kits are left by then? Yes, maybe. That's probably the easiest thing for them to do. But that doesn't seem like it would take that long for them to do.

Could it be a re-scale? If they do a smaller scale they don't need to do multi-part kits which should lead to quicker design. Something Warmaster-y, but obviously not in the Warmaster scale so people have to buy it all again.

 Platuan4th wrote:


Yes and no, since Titanicus wasn't ever hyped by GW themselves as a return of Epic.

This isn't being hyped as a return of Warhammer Fantasy Battles, either... Just a return of the Old World. They've very carefully not called it 'Warhammer Fantasy Battles'...