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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Maybe I'm misremembering, but the new Unholy Essence strat for The Inexorable, that does nothing in 9th, right? Vehicles can already move and fire without penalty, so what good is Inexorable Advance for them?

Full list:
The blight drone can advance and shoot its heavy blight launcher without penalty (an overpriced option no one uses)
Rhinos, Predators, Landraiders and Scourges can rapid fire their combi-plasma at 18" or advance and shoot their combi-melta without penalty
And there is a bunch of FW unis which can shoot their random assault weapons without penalty after advancing, but all of them are also equipped with heavy weapons that you can't shoot if you do.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
There‘ll be a lot of useless and unclear 8th Ed. rules, once 9th hits.

All the new AdMech „instead of Overwatch“ strats for example are also weird now, if you need to pay a CP to Overwatch to than again replace Overwatch with another Strat.

People just need to accept that Pychic Awakening is just random bloat thrown out with minimal editions and testing to milk the end of 8th., not some secret „designed with 9th in mind“-masterplan

Battleforged armies, per Stu Black today, can only use a stratagem once per turn(or phase--I couldn't hear him too well as phone was ringing). So only one unit can Overwatch per turn or phase unless you get it on a datasheet or via another stratagem/ability.
So Serberys Raiders? They can bait a charge and then fall back, leaving the charger open instead of Overwatching...or another unit that might have been selected as part of the charge can instead Overwatch.

That's two CPs that can be used to funnel a unit into a bad spot via charging.

 MinMax wrote:
Why, it allows your Rhino to rapid-fire its combi-plasma from 18" away! Up to three of them, in fact! That is surely worth 1 CP.

Ah yes. Combi-Plasmas on Chaos Rhinos, the case study for why USRs are better than "bespoke" rules.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
There‘ll be a lot of useless and unclear 8th Ed. rules, once 9th hits.

All the new AdMech „instead of Overwatch“ strats for example are also weird now, if you need to pay a CP to Overwatch to than again replace Overwatch with another Strat.

People just need to accept that Pychic Awakening is just random bloat thrown out with minimal editions and testing to milk the end of 8th., not some secret „designed with 9th in mind“-masterplan

Battleforged armies, per Stu Black today, can only use a stratagem once per turn(or phase--I couldn't hear him too well as phone was ringing). So only one unit can Overwatch per turn or phase unless you get it on a datasheet or via another stratagem/ability.
So Serberys Raiders? They can bait a charge and then fall back, leaving the charger open instead of Overwatching...or another unit that might have been selected as part of the charge can instead Overwatch.

That's two CPs that can be used to funnel a unit into a bad spot via charging.

That wasn't his point. His point was does "instead of overwatch" now mean only if you spend 1CP to overwatch, and then do this thing instead? So does it now cost 3CP to do the "run away instead of overwatch" stratagem, assuming Radiers don't have native overwatch on their datasheet?

Presumably the answer is "no," but he's right that the wording is super unclear as a result of overwatch becoming something that not all units can do base.

Did you even actually read how the Overwatch stratagem is worded? Serious question.
Here it is. Read it.

Now, Tactica Obliqua(which is the Serberys Raiders Stratagem for Falling Back) says the following:

Use this Stratagem in your opponent's Charge phase when a Serberys Raiders unit from your army is chosen as the target of a charge for the first time that turn. Instead of firing Overwatch, that unit can move or Fall Back as if it were your Movement phase (it cannot Advance as part of this move).

There is no suggestion you're required to pay 1CP for the 'Fire Overwatch' Stratagem in order to use the Tactica Obliqua stratagem.
If you use Tactica Obliqua, you cannot choose your Serberys Raiders as part of your Fire Overwatch Stratagem.

Any interesting background spoilers?

 Kanluwen wrote:
Did you even actually read how the Overwatch stratagem is worded? Serious question.
Here it is. Read it.

Spoiler:

Now, Tactica Obliqua(which is the Serberys Raiders Stratagem for Falling Back) says the following:

Use this Stratagem in your opponent's Charge phase when a Serberys Raiders unit from your army is chosen as the target of a charge for the first time that turn. Instead of firing Overwatch, that unit can move or Fall Back as if it were your Movement phase (it cannot Advance as part of this move).

There is no suggestion you're required to pay 1CP for the 'Fire Overwatch' Stratagem in order to use the Tactica Obliqua stratagem.
If you use Tactica Obliqua, you cannot choose your Serberys Raiders as part of your Fire Overwatch Stratagem.

Did you even actually read the actual overwatch rule? Serious question. The stratagem isn't overwatch, and it is not the only source of overwatch. The stratagem merely lets you overwatch on a unit that cannot otherwise do so, following the general overwatch rule.

If you can't overwatch, can you do something "instead" of overwatching? It's unclear. Unless Raiders have a base ability to overwatch, it's arguable whether they can do something that requires you to do it "instead" of overwatching.

For example, in 8th edition, if someone puts a psychic power on the raiders that prevents them from firing overwatch, would that also prevent them from using the strat "instead" of overwatch? It's certainly arguable - nay, even probable - that the answer is yes.

Now I think it's pretty clear the RAI is that they can use the stratagem without having to pay 1CP to get the ability to overwatch so they can do the other thing "instead." But the rule as written is unclear. What the strat should say is "a unit that uses this stratagem cannot fire overwatch in the same phase it used the stratagem" or something like that.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
There‘ll be a lot of useless and unclear 8th Ed. rules, once 9th hits.

All the new AdMech „instead of Overwatch“ strats for example are also weird now, if you need to pay a CP to Overwatch to than again replace Overwatch with another Strat.

People just need to accept that Pychic Awakening is just random bloat thrown out with minimal editions and testing to milk the end of 8th., not some secret „designed with 9th in mind“-masterplan

Well, when they say "designed with 9th in mind" people assume they mean "designed to be compatible with 9th" when what they really mean is "didn't put a whole lot of effort in because we knew 9th was coming."

yukishiro1 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Did you even actually read how the Overwatch stratagem is worded? Serious question.
Here it is. Read it.

Spoiler:

Now, Tactica Obliqua(which is the Serberys Raiders Stratagem for Falling Back) says the following:

Use this Stratagem in your opponent's Charge phase when a Serberys Raiders unit from your army is chosen as the target of a charge for the first time that turn. Instead of firing Overwatch, that unit can move or Fall Back as if it were your Movement phase (it cannot Advance as part of this move).

There is no suggestion you're required to pay 1CP for the 'Fire Overwatch' Stratagem in order to use the Tactica Obliqua stratagem.
If you use Tactica Obliqua, you cannot choose your Serberys Raiders as part of your Fire Overwatch Stratagem.

Did you even actually read the actual overwatch rule? Serious question. The stratagem isn't overwatch, and it is not the only source of overwatch. The stratagem merely lets you overwatch on a unit that cannot otherwise do so, following the general overwatch rule.

If you can't overwatch, can you do something "instead" of overwatching? It's unclear. Unless Raiders have a base ability to overwatch, it's arguable whether they can do something that requires you to do it "instead" of overwatching.

For example, in 8th edition, if someone puts a psychic power on the raiders that prevents them from firing overwatch, would that also prevent them from using the strat "instead" of overwatch? It's certainly arguable - nay, even probable - that the answer is yes.

Now I think it's pretty clear the RAI is that they can use the stratagem without having to pay 1CP to get the ability to overwatch so they can do the other thing "instead." But the rule as written is unclear. What the strat should say is "a unit that uses this stratagem cannot fire overwatch in the same phase it used the stratagem" or something like that.

Well you can do actions that are instead of shooting(like smoke launcher) when you can't shoot(advance)

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
There‘ll be a lot of useless and unclear 8th Ed. rules, once 9th hits.

All the new AdMech „instead of Overwatch“ strats for example are also weird now, if you need to pay a CP to Overwatch to than again replace Overwatch with another Strat.

People just need to accept that Pychic Awakening is just random bloat thrown out with minimal editions and testing to milk the end of 8th., not some secret „designed with 9th in mind“-masterplan

Well, when they say "designed with 9th in mind" people assume they mean "designed to be compatible with 9th" when what they really mean is "didn't put a whole lot of effort in because we knew 9th was coming."

Ding ding ding we have a winner!

tneva82 wrote:

Well you can do actions that are instead of shooting(like smoke launcher) when you can't shoot(advance)

Pretty sure that's been FAQed in both directions, though, depending on the particular rule.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
There‘ll be a lot of useless and unclear 8th Ed. rules, once 9th hits.

All the new AdMech „instead of Overwatch“ strats for example are also weird now, if you need to pay a CP to Overwatch to than again replace Overwatch with another Strat.

People just need to accept that Pychic Awakening is just random bloat thrown out with minimal editions and testing to milk the end of 8th., not some secret „designed with 9th in mind“-masterplan

Well, when they say "designed with 9th in mind" people assume they mean "designed to be compatible with 9th" when what they really mean is "didn't put a whole lot of effort in because we knew 9th was coming."

I do not feel it takes much imagination to see where a few easy errata can render incompatible rules fit for 9th. Besides, are they supposed to specifically make the rules not function for the current edition?

I also feel like the PA books do not mark a particular degradation of rules quality that would be the case should such a theory be true.

Would love to hear what my fellow Death Guard players have to say about my hour-long deep dive into all the new rules in War of the Spider! I looked into almost every new DG rule, ability, and combo. This is based on my perspective of having played Death Guard at a large number of competitive tournaments over the last three years, with an eye towards 9th Edition. I think GW mostly knocked it out of the park.

 Virules wrote:
Would love to hear what my fellow Death Guard players have to say about my hour-long deep dive into all the new rules in War of the Spider! I looked into almost every new DG rule, ability, and combo. This is based on my perspective of having played Death Guard at a large number of competitive tournaments over the last three years, with an eye towards 9th Edition. I think GW mostly knocked it out of the park.

Spoiler:

Excellent video. Anyone who runs mono-DG should watch this.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Virules wrote:
Would love to hear what my fellow Death Guard players have to say about my hour-long deep dive into all the new rules in War of the Spider! I looked into almost every new DG rule, ability, and combo. This is based on my perspective of having played Death Guard at a large number of competitive tournaments over the last three years, with an eye towards 9th Edition. I think GW mostly knocked it out of the park.

Spoiler:

Excellent video. Anyone who runs mono-DG should watch this.

Thanks, kind of you to say. I am still trying to figure out why the background imagery is not high quality when I use high res images and stream in HD! Hard being a one man outfit, hah.

Your positivity has no place here!!

Begone foul optimist! The power of salt compels you!

Sometimes you do wonder about the rules writers at GW...

It seems completely random as to whether a faction just gets normal strategems or whether it gets these wierd variable cost for different unit size strategems.

Daemons originally got one but it was based on power level.
Then they did it with the Imperial Knight Rotate Ion Shield FAQ.
Tau got some in The Greater Good.
Now they show up again for War of the Spider.

Even Space Marines 2019 has a single variable cost strategem!

Its the same with the randomness of whether you can get no extra warlord trait, just one extra warlord trait or you can get as many as you like.

Not sure why you're trying to be positive about it. Several things that should've been there to begin with cost a bunch of CP.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Not sure why you're trying to be positive about it. Several things that should've been there to begin with cost a bunch of CP.

Not sure what exactly you were expecting out of a PA? Have you not read any of the previous books?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Not sure why you're trying to be positive about it. Several things that should've been there to begin with cost a bunch of CP.

While I agree, and wish we had improved legion traits and traits on vehicles, keep in mind that these things are factored into the costs of the units. A lot of things that are now accessible with command paints, including pre-game upgrades that last all game, would cause the units to cost substantially more points if they came automatically and lasted all game. I would rather be able to pick and choose pregame what upgrades I use, or surge some CP during the game during a key moment, than have all my units less expensive.

Though yes, trying to fix fundamentally problematic Plague Marines with a variety of stratagems that all cost CP (some 2 or 3 CP) is definitely the most frustrating part. Asking someone to dump a bunch of CP into Plague Marines every turn to deal with the fact that they are 1-wound models with normal bolters is frustrating.

 Virules wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Not sure why you're trying to be positive about it. Several things that should've been there to begin with cost a bunch of CP.

While I agree, and wish we had improved legion traits and traits on vehicles, keep in mind that these things are factored into the costs of the units. A lot of things that are now accessible with command paints, including pre-game upgrades that last all game, would cause the units to cost substantially more points if they came automatically and lasted all game. I would rather be able to pick and choose pregame what upgrades I use, or surge some CP during the game during a key moment, than have all my units less expensive.

Though yes, trying to fix fundamentally problematic Plague Marines with a variety of stratagems that all cost CP (some 2 or 3 CP) is definitely the most frustrating part. Asking someone to dump a bunch of CP into Plague Marines every turn to deal with the fact that they are 1-wound models with normal bolters is frustrating.

We have traits on vehicles

 ph34r wrote:

 Virules wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Not sure why you're trying to be positive about it. Several things that should've been there to begin with cost a bunch of CP.

While I agree, and wish we had improved legion traits and traits on vehicles, keep in mind that these things are factored into the costs of the units. A lot of things that are now accessible with command paints, including pre-game upgrades that last all game, would cause the units to cost substantially more points if they came automatically and lasted all game. I would rather be able to pick and choose pregame what upgrades I use, or surge some CP during the game during a key moment, than have all my units less expensive.

Though yes, trying to fix fundamentally problematic Plague Marines with a variety of stratagems that all cost CP (some 2 or 3 CP) is definitely the most frustrating part. Asking someone to dump a bunch of CP into Plague Marines every turn to deal with the fact that they are 1-wound models with normal bolters is frustrating.

We have traits on vehicles

Only Helbrutes?

Oh and you can pay 1CP a turn for Inexorable Advance while locking you out of other stuff!

I do hope the salty players do not engage in the hypocrisy of buying the book or using the stratagems, given how supposedly awful they are.

 Jidmah wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Not sure why you're trying to be positive about it. Several things that should've been there to begin with cost a bunch of CP.

Not sure what exactly you were expecting out of a PA? Have you not read any of the previous books?

Psychic awakening has been highly variable in what it does rules wise for armies.

stratigo wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Not sure why you're trying to be positive about it. Several things that should've been there to begin with cost a bunch of CP.

Not sure what exactly you were expecting out of a PA? Have you not read any of the previous books?

Psychic awakening has been highly variable in what it does rules wise for armies.

Variable?
As soon as sm were the topic it was not variable at all and that's just 65% of the players.

stratigo wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Not sure why you're trying to be positive about it. Several things that should've been there to begin with cost a bunch of CP.

Not sure what exactly you were expecting out of a PA? Have you not read any of the previous books?

Psychic awakening has been highly variable in what it does rules wise for armies.

It wasn't though? The list of things a PA adds to its respective armies is: stratagems, warlord traits, relics, relics for non-characters, psychic powers, alternate sub-faction rules and maybe a model or two. Not a single PA changed any existing army rules or updated all datasheets. The only way PA impacts units that did not get new models were through stratagems or relics.
Yet, here we have slayer whining in six(!) threads in parallel about how it surprisingly was not a codex 2.0 and instead "just" a PA that went above and beyond what any DG player would have expected, ticking off almost every point on every wish list and even more. DG were successfully brought up to the same level where all the other chaos legions are. The only thing one that could have been but wasn't would be getting new psychic powers - however, neither did any of the other chaos marines.

Slayer is just being negative for negativity's sake, he wasn't involved in any of the DG topics of the last years, so I seriously doubt he is qualified to judge this update at all. I mean, look at his posts, he is raging about two stratagems that every DG player just skipped over because they will never take them - in between dozens of great stratagems which are so great you will use them every game.

Sounds like a decent improvement then Jid.

point still stands tho , the results of what' a faction got out of PA was quite variable, with SM profiting often the most, whilest others have had wierd shortcomings.

But if it improved DG a bit then it achieved atleast partially a better influence on the meta, allbeit , i think we all kinda agree to avoid something like possessed bomb enabling like stratagems.

I think most people wanted the grey knight threatment for the worst armies out there. But it is obvious that was something for them. Not undeserved, of course.

 Jidmah wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Not sure why you're trying to be positive about it. Several things that should've been there to begin with cost a bunch of CP.

Not sure what exactly you were expecting out of a PA? Have you not read any of the previous books?

Psychic awakening has been highly variable in what it does rules wise for armies.

It wasn't though? The list of things a PA adds to its respective armies is: stratagems, warlord traits, relics, relics for non-characters, psychic powers, alternate sub-faction rules and maybe a model or two. Not a single PA changed any existing army rules or updated all datasheets. The only way PA impacts units that did not get new models were through stratagems or relics.
Yet, here we have slayer whining in six(!) threads in parallel about how it surprisingly was not a codex 2.0 and instead "just" a PA that went above and beyond what any DG player would have expected, ticking off almost every point on every wish list and even more. DG were successfully brought up to the same level where all the other chaos legions are. The only thing one that could have been but wasn't would be getting new psychic powers - however, neither did any of the other chaos marines.

Slayer is just being negative for negativity's sake, he wasn't involved in any of the DG topics of the last years, so I seriously doubt he is qualified to judge this update at all. I mean, look at his posts, he is raging about two stratagems that every DG player just skipped over because they will never take them - in between dozens of great stratagems which are so great you will use them every game.

Some factions got subfactions that consisted of actual rules you didn't have to do anything to activate. Some didn't. Some factions got a build your own subfaction tool. Some didn't. Some factions got new units and rules. Some didn't. Some factions were made actually good. Some weren't.

Highly variable