Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Does anyone else get discouraged seeing so many spammy lists? IMHO it can really take away from the hobby, making it dull and redundant. Does anyone have any suggestions as how to make a solid list that is not spammy?

I disagree, I think spam is fun. Having many of one unit not only gives you game advantages (redundancy and strength (by taking lots of the good units)) but fluff advantages too.

My deep striking blood angels rely on spamming assault squads, each with a fist and 2 meltas. This isn't dull, it's how real, military forces work. An assault squad like that can be combat squadded or deployed as one, and provides excellent anti horde and anti tank (not great against meqs without a nearby priest). Therefore, I can use an assault squad like that in many places simultaneously across the field. It's a case of, take more of the best units. E.g. when you know you need to have anti horde and anti tank and scoring troops then assault squads with fists and meltas are the best for the job in the whole codex. So take 3, or 4!

I think a force with spamming of units gives a nice sense of theme and order to an army, makes it look like a proper military force and not a random collection of units thrown together by a 13 year old warhammer player back in the 90s!

My army is heavily themed as a jump pack equipped assault list, and it wouldn't be possible to convey such a theme without spamming the above assault squad.

How do you make a bike army without spamming bike squads? or a deathwing army without spamming terminator squads? or a chaos rhino rush army without spamming rhinos?! To give an army a theme, without a hugely strong modelling theme (not an option for many people), you have to spam units! Otherwise your army can seem very vanilla.

Interesting perspective. Apart from themed forces that require an obvious component (i.e., bikes or terminators only), I think the aesthetic of given range can provide enough "theme" for an army, especially if the hobbyist puts enough time into it. As for order, why does every unit have to be the same to have order? If different units work in different manners, but add up to a great army, isn't that order as well?

I think a lot of people confuse 'theme' with 'strategy'.

Look, I personally loathe spam. I think spamming of units is the least interesting thing about 40k, and I think playing 'competitively' at excessively high point levels allows people to compensate for the weaknesses of spam. But I don't consider myself a fluff bunny - I like 40K fluff, and I like experimenting to find ways to make less useful units usable, but I won't cram them in out of stubbornness just because. I think spamming units is a poor man's alternative to strategy, and the shortcomings of it are covered by the very limited range of point levels people like to play at.

That said, I don't have a problem with an army focused around a certain strategy of play. If you want an army that uses a lot of fast vehicles, that's cool. If you want a lot of jump infantry, that's fun and interesting too. I like my bike army and Terminator army just as much as the next guy. I just don't think that the strategy really is a 'theme'.

'Theme' is a broad idea, an aesthetic - it goes beyond game strategy. Simply put, it's fluff, and should be considered an artistic element of the army, just like painting is an artistic element. In other words, the art of it is separate to the game element. Themes that make me sit up and take interest are ideas - an Eldar Exodite army, or a force representing the Ultramarines reorganised after the Battle for Macragge, with Tyranid trophies, lots of veteran-type troops, few Terminators, and so forth. That's a theme.

Sure, you can say 'my army is a Chapter from a world with rough terrain, which is why they use a lot of Speeders and Dreadnoughts, and their Chapter Master likes assault cannons, so that's why they all have them' - and I heard that a lot back in 3rd Ed when AssCans were god - but I think we can all see the artistic element, the theme, is pretty feeble there. In short, if people want to theme their spammy army of Razorbacks, please do, but 'theme' is an artistic, aesthetic element of the army, and a lame attempt at it as spam justification isn't going to impress anyone.

So long as the spam isn't all elites all the time or all fast attack all the time or what not, same for heavy support, I'm cool with it, especially if there is a theme.

That said, if the spam is minimum squads with transports, well FFFF, but as a general rule I don't mind spam so long as the list isn't WAAC.

You can take all the transports you want imo, so long as the squad is maximum strength.

lunarman wrote:I disagree, I think spam is fun. Having many of one unit not only gives you game advantages (redundancy and strength (by taking lots of the good units)) but fluff advantages too.

My deep striking blood angels rely on spamming assault squads, each with a fist and 2 meltas. This isn't dull, it's how real, military forces work.

My army is heavily themed as a jump pack equipped assault list, and it wouldn't be possible to convey such a theme without spamming the above assault squad.

Good response, I run 6 full ten man BA assault squads with power fist and 2 meltas , 3 of them on jump packs and 3 in rhinos along with land speeders and 3 samguinary priest with a Libby (2000 points). It woks very, very well. 60 marines with half of them dropping in is fairly potent but I don't consider it SPAM I consider it effective .

I assume you don't like playing against orks, do you?

MORE BOYZ, MORE DAKKA! MORE BOYZ, MORE DAKKA! MORE BOYZ, MORE BOYZ, MORE DAKKA! MORE BOYZ, MORE DAKKA! MORE BOYZ, MORE DAKKA! MORE DAKKA! MORE BOYZ, MORE DAKKA! MORE BOYZ, MORE DAKKA! And so on...

snake wrote:Does anyone else get discouraged seeing so many spammy lists? IMHO it can really take away from the hobby, making it dull and redundant. Does anyone have any suggestions as how to make a solid list that is not spammy?

Spam isn't always a bad thing. Spam can follow from a theme. Certainly a White Scars army would no doubt often contain a large number of bikes, or a Steel Legion army lots of chimeras and Leman Russ tanks, or Haemonculus coven large numbers of Wracks and Pain engines?

Spam only becomes a negative thing when done for the purposes of power.

That said, if you want suggestions on solid lists that aren't spammy, you're basically looking for similar capabilities in different units and ensuring you have all of your potential bases covered.

I'm all for redundancy for effectiveness (3x Trueborn in Venoms, etc) but if your 'themed' army is 6x Troops in Razorbacks, with 3x Heavy Support and some spammable character/SC just go the full mile and call them the Boring Bros.

I hate it. When I collected my Eldar, I made sure I had one of every codex unit before buying a second set of one. Admittdely I dropped that idea for my DA, but still.

If its themed, such as Deathwing Dark angels, then I can understand the termies only. Same if BA players are only using assault marines, it fits the fluff.

But I really hate razorspam. Hell's fires hath no fury like mine when I see razorspam.

I loathe spam with a passion, but don't mind it so much with troops selections, because there's a lot of them about 'init. The thing I really don't like is tripling up on Elites, Fast Attack and Heavy Support. And what really does my swede in is Chaos Marine armie with multiples of exactly the same squad; not very chaotic is it?

I hate spam. Hate playing it, playing against it, or even seeing it played. Makes the game boring.

To overcome this; I play at small pts values. It actually forces people not to spam, as they struggle to cover all the bases. Also; as the people I play against are ideologically similar, we all have a gentleman's agreement not to spam.

If its done for fluff or the 'cool factor' im all for it. But i cant stand it when it boils down to WAAC lists, such as the notorious Long-Fang Spam.

Though some of the themed 'spammy' lists are just too boring. I know Space-Marine Chapters have a few companies that are mostly just rank-and-file tac marines with maybe some Heavy support. While im not fond of a Tac-Marine army in a Rhino, my Dark-lances tend to like em.

though i dont think spam is spam unless said spam comprises more than 70% of the entire army, like the tac+rhino list.

There are alot of unit in a lot of codexes that need redundancy to be effective, as they are either: too fragile (all of DA), too slow (any MC), too weak (Gunline IG, no HWS), or simply to not have enough number of shots/attacks

I don't mind spammy lists, I have brought spammy Ig and SW lists to games and have faced many spammy lists.

If it's allowed by the rules then I will play it.

That said my regular group were a good bunch of chaps not a WAAC gamer amongst us, so that helps.

Anidem wrote:

There are alot of unit in a lot of codexes that need redundancy to be effective, as they are either: too fragile (all of DA), too slow (any MC), too weak (Gunline IG, no HWS), or simply to not have enough number of shots/attacks

Redundancy does not have to mean spam.

My defination of spammy list is one where it spams a single unit over and over for an in-game advantage.The Purifier list is a good example.I think a themed army is good.A list where Crowe is the HQ is a Purifier themed army.

Is it a matter of playing the same people with that list over and over again? Or is it you game many different places and find the same race & list a lot?

But in general spam is quite tasty when grilled or fried.

Does anyone else get discouraged seeing so many spammy lists?

I am so sick of people complaining of spam. No I am not discouraged, by spam. I expect it, because it works. It's logical. It's real.

it can really take away from the hobby, making it dull and redundant. IMHO

The Hobby is Modeling, Conversions, Basing, Painting, and Sharing your hard work with others. The Game is pushing around plastic/resin/metal models in a strategic tactical simulation using a muddy ruleset, with many inconsistencies(sp?).

Can I say I hate SM painted Blue because there are so many poeple playing UltraMarines and it's making it dull and redundant?

[

If its themed, such as Deathwing Dark angels, then I can understand the termies only. Same if BA players are only using assault marines, it fits the fluff.

But I really hate razorspam. Hell's fires hath no fury like mine when I see razorspam.

How is one spam ok and not another. So it fits the fluff, it's ok.

Well how about this Egil Iron Wolf <Space Wolf Fluff pg. 17> "The armoured assaults of Egil's Company are famous across the Fenris system, typified by great roaming packs of transport vehicles that cut off the prey's escape routes..."

So Razorspam should be ok now right? I just quoted the the fluff reasoning behind it. Or is it because Little Jimmy has his own razorspam army and he keeps beating you because you decide that a military force in your mind would not be prepared with the right equipment available before deployment.

I can see it now...
Sgt.: "Excuse me Captain we could use some meltas to fight the battle down on the planet. We have intelligence that the Space Wolves are down below, and are deployed in armoured transports."

Capt: "No sergeant. Use of that many meltas is not in line with the Codex Astartes as to running a Fluffy Chapter. You'll just have to make due."

UsdiThunder wrote:

Does anyone else get discouraged seeing so many spammy lists?

I can see it now...
Sgt.: "Excuse me Captain we could use some meltas to fight the battle down on the planet. We have intelligence that the Space Wolves are down below, and are deployed in armoured transports."

Capt: "No sergeant. Use of that many meltas is not in line with the Codex Astartes as to running a Fluffy Chapter. You'll just have to make due."

Bwahahaha, +1

Spam is efficient. If you don't like it, just refuse to play the opponent playing it. If you see it in competitions and it annoys you, don't show up to competitions.

I like what a previous poster said, if the rules allow it I will play it.

I think it's fun once in a while.

It is fun,but it becomes annoying when every person has nothing but Purifiers,Genestealers,Wolf Guard,Paladins Venoms, etc.It is a hobby that should challenge your tactically skills,not force you to play against 1 unit time and time again.

Deadshot wrote:It is fun,but it becomes annoying when every person has nothing but Purifiers,Genestealers,Wolf Guard,Paladins Venoms, etc.It is a hobby that should challenge your tactically skills,not force you to play against 1 unit time and time again.

The reason for this is that poeple play games to try to win. No one starts playing a game and says "Gee, I would really love to lose this game."

Plus it is not like everyone owns a full force org chart of everything where they could change up every chance they got.

Spam can be fun if it's OTT spam...
3 packs of missile fangs can be bad but 3 squadrons of 3 punishers is hilarious...

It matters. I take a lot of Grey Hunter squads, but I equip them differently so as to add variation.

An army with 3 Flash Git mobs :S

My Iron Warriors take 3 10-man devastator squads (I use the loyalist book). It's spammy, yes, but it's also very fluffy.

Same with my flesh tearers. 3 full assault squads with jump packs. Spammy but fluffy.

Fluffy spam is ok because it is themed.

I agree with the sentiment that spammy doesn't necessarily mean unfluffy, and vise versa. I think you'll be hard pressed to find a military organization that says, "Okay, we have one artillery piece. That should be enough. There is no valid reason to have a backup."

But then again, one man's spam is another man's fair and balanced. What can you do?

Spam doesn't have to be visually uninteresting. Cool conversions can really help with making an army look complete. As for gameplay value, I really have no problem at all with people spamming units to their hearts' content. If it's legal and it's in the codex then it's legit. Same reason I think comp scores are silly.

Some of the most obnoxious armies don't really rely on "spamming" (ie: loading up your HS slots with ALL one unit). For example, 2-3 Hydras and a pair of Manticores is probably better then 3 Manticores. Mech Vets often benefit from a bubblewrap powerblob, and CSM benefit heavily from running a unit of Berzerkers as counter assault.

Deadshot wrote:Fluffy spam is ok because it is themed.

Then all spam should be good since it is in theme for an army to be properly equiped with the right equipment for thie specific mission.

To all the RazorSpam Haters Remember Egil IronWolf's Armoured Company on page 17. It is Fluffy.