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Hey all. Messing around with Xeno armies, and have encountered a problem. Unlike MEQ, the points do not add up into a nice little bow. I find I have armies with 1501pts, 1746pts, and so on. As for under, I suppose that is just a matter of sucking it up. But going over, by literally 1 or 2 points: how much does matter, in both tourny situations, and friendly games?

I would say it was ok in a freindly game, but not in a tornament.

(Your poll would make more sense if it had a 'Yes, but only in freindly games' option)

If you intend to ever play in a tournament, learn the meaning of "limit". If you can't take out one piece of wargear or upgrade to drop you under the list, rework it.

That's why they have them. 1500pts does not mean "close enough to 1500" or "1500 and a little bit more".

In a friendly, I might let it slide. Depends on how aggressive you are about it (you've got to give a little to get a little).

chromedog wrote:If you intend to ever play in a tournament, learn the meaning of "limit".....

That's why they have them. 1500pts does not mean "close enough to 1500" or "1500 and a little bit more".

I know, I am more curious about people's thoughts for friendly games. But, then again, not everyone is super strict on WYSIWYG, and that is supposed to be the golden rule in Tournaments.

xlEternitylx wrote:

chromedog wrote:If you intend to ever play in a tournament, learn the meaning of "limit".....

That's why they have them. 1500pts does not mean "close enough to 1500" or "1500 and a little bit more".

I know, I am more curious about people's thoughts for friendly games. But, then again, not everyone is super strict on WYSIWYG, and that is supposed to be the golden rule in Tournaments.

Well if a tournament says that it is enforcing WYSIWYG they rely on the players to have an issue with a model or models to deal with them. Many players graciously overlook minor WYSIWYG gaffs and therefore people 'get away with' minor WYSIWYG discrepancies. However if an opponent were to complain to the tournament organizer about that minor gaff, there is a high likelihood that the TO would then be forced to take action...so the rule IS there, its just that many players are nice and let others get away with things.


HOWEVER, when it comes to point values in tournaments, the limit is the limit. If you go over, you will not be allowed to play in the tournament unless its some wacky tournament that doesn't enforce its point limit (which I've never heard of).


In friendly games...being 1, 2 or 50 points doesn't matter as long as you're telling your opponent ahead of time and they have the opportunity to adjust their list to match whatever the new 'total' you've come up with. But yeah coming to a like a gaming store for a 'friendly' game with your list 'over' in points and expecting that your opponent will be cool with it is a bit rude to them. If you know that they're fine with a few points over then that's something else, but you should never assume that it will be okay unless you know them quite well ahead of time.

There (long ago) used to be a rule that an army could exceed the 'maximum' points by the cost of its cheapest model. Broadly speaking, I'd say that was fair enough for friendly games but obviously in a competition that has a proper fixed maximum then no going over points should be allowed.

Blood and Slaughter wrote:There (long ago) used to be a rule that an army could exceed the 'maximum' points by the cost of its cheapest model. Broadly speaking, I'd say that was fair enough for friendly games but obviously in a competition that has a proper fixed maximum then no going over points should be allowed.

I do not recall that rule ever being in place in 40K, and I've been playing before they had point values in the game! Any chance you remember where/when that rule existed?

Actually, now you say that, I think it was in Fantasy not 40K. In principle though I think it's a fair rule of thumb for friendly games where someone needs to round out a squad or something.

Blood and Slaughter wrote:Actually, now you say that, I think it was in Fantasy not 40K. In principle though I think it's a fair rule of thumb for friendly games where someone needs to round out a squad or something.

Can't say as I agree. Assuming it was indeed a fantasy rule, if it were still in play it would be very unfairly biased towards, say, Daemons and against, say, Skaven.

Personally, my official stance is the limit is the limit, even in friendly games. I will relent on this on occasion, but it's rare that you can't drop something that costs a couple of points to get back under the target number.

Well I think that's why they dropped it, because it gave a slight advantage to players with expensive models. Personally I never go over points even in the most casual of games butb if I was playing someone who 'needed' to go a few points over I wouldn't mind.

Blood and Slaughter wrote:Actually, now you say that, I think it was in Fantasy not 40K. In principle though I think it's a fair rule of thumb for friendly games where someone needs to round out a squad or something.

Frankly I don't see the difference between having your list be 1496 or 1503 (for example) except that one is within the agreed points limit of 1,500 and the other isn't...so why do people assume they should get to 'round out' a squad up to over the limit instead of cutting one thing out to end up a bit under?

Again, it is fine to ASK your opponent to allow this, lord knows I've asked it myself and had it asked of me plenty of times in friendly games, but you should never, ever show up to a gaming session assuming your opponent will allow you to be over the agreed upon points limit unless you know without a shadow of a doubt that this guy doesn't mind such a thing.

I think some of the "friendlier" tournaments, not the GT or 'ardboyz for example, could allow going over by one or two points, especially if they're assessing themed armies or best painted, just because its a friendly tournament and having an extra model for the theme is nice.

yakface wrote:

Blood and Slaughter wrote:Actually, now you say that, I think it was in Fantasy not 40K. In principle though I think it's a fair rule of thumb for friendly games where someone needs to round out a squad or something.

Frankly I don't see the difference between having your list be 1496 or 1503 (for example) except that one is within the agreed points limit of 1,500 and the other isn't...so why do people assume they should get to 'round out' a squad up to over the limit instead of cutting one thing out to end up a bit under?

Again, it is fine to ASK your opponent to allow this, lord knows I've asked it myself and had it asked of me plenty of times in friendly games, but you should never, ever show up to a gaming session assuming your opponent will allow you to be over the agreed upon points limit unless you know without a shadow of a doubt that this guy doesn't mind such a thing.

I agree. I'm not doing this myself you know, just saying I've no particular objection to someone going a bit over if they're playing me and that I use as a rough rule of thumb an old rule.

IMO,if they can drop a 1pt searchlioght to make it fit they muyst.If they can't witthout going way under the limit,then the should.

IE

In a 1500pts game,a BA player has 1501 pts and a searchlight on his Rhino,he should drop it.

However if a Nid player had to drop a 17 point genestealer to make it fit then that is fine,take the extra 1 point.

That's about the common way around here. If you can't drop a 5 point or cheaper upgrade/model, you may have up to 3 additional points.

To me the limit is the limit. With that said if I am playing a new player who is building his first list I'll let a few points slide. If I'm playing another vet player then I see no reason he can't tweak his list for the agreed upon point value. After all if you agree to a 2000 point game that is what you bring...not 2001 or 2500.

If the limit is 2000, then you should have 2000 (or less) points. If you're bringing 2001, then the limit should be 2001.

I mean, I spent 30 minutes agonizing over how to cope with that 3 point servo skull, or god forbid, Tyranids in general.

Why can't you just drop that Shining Spear or missile launcher and live with it?

yakface wrote:

Frankly I don't see the difference between having your list be 1496 or 1503 (for example) except that one is within the agreed points limit of 1,500 and the other isn't...so why do people assume they should get to 'round out' a squad up to over the limit instead of cutting one thing out to end up a bit under?

This sums it up exactly. The point cap is the absolute maximum- it is absolutely possible you will be under it. But people seem to feel entitled to squeeze out the exact cap and maybe a little more. If it's a friendly game and you can't fit in all your desired shiney toys then 1) learn to cut back (this will help you alot with competitive list building) or 2) agree to a higher cap.

Deadshot wrote:IMO,if they can drop a 1pt searchlioght to make it fit they muyst.If they can't witthout going way under the limit,then the should.

IE

In a 1500pts game,a BA player has 1501 pts and a searchlight on his Rhino,he should drop it.

However if a Nid player had to drop a 17 point genestealer to make it fit then that is fine,take the extra 1 point.

That's just it. The reason a limit is identified is to force the player to organize his army to fit the limit. That's part of the strategy of the game. In your example, that genestealer may be what makes that unit viable and without the unit isn't. Thus, the Nid player may need to refactor his army based on the lack of a the 'stealer unit.

Would I turn away a friendly because someone tables an army one point above the agreed to limit? No. But I would be asking why he couldn't get the army to the specified limit.

I always make my lists at or under the max points, but I don't usually mind if the opponent goes over a few, cause it makes the win slightly more satisfying.

I would love to keep my armies hitting exactly on the limit, but I make an effort to make my armies WYSIWYG as much as possible and I really want my warboss to have an attack squig, big choppa, kombi skorcha, 'eavy armour, stikk bombs, and a santa hat in play. As a consequence, I have unit cards that have the build for that mob and its associated point costs on them and start shuffling them around to find a build that fits.

If I go over, I start dropping upgrades to the truks first, then boyz start disappearing from the 20-30 ork mobz. If my opponent has a burning need to field 1502, I will let them have it. Anything more than 5 pts, though, is foolish because that is the cost of a grenade that you probably won't end up using.

-cgmckenzie

The difference between 2000 and 2001 could be as simple as a searchlight. The searchlight that just lit up my Stormraven and allowed your entire army to shoot at it.

The limit is the limit. Max points or under. Not a point over.

Edit: In tournaments, that is. In friendly games, do what you want.

For me the points limit is the points limit. If my opponent would come with a 1500+ points list to an agreed 1500 point battle I'd be annoyed. If he can't (or won't) drop something to get to the actual agreed limit I might suggest I add something extra as well, however I will make sure to make it cost a lot more points that he is over. If he isn't happy about that I can then ask him why he thinks I would be happy with him doing the same thing.

Only exception to me are pickup games where the opponent is quickly writing a list, and new players that don't have the models/experience to build a list to the points limit.

This is the text I always copy-paste when this subject pops up.


-----------------------------------------------------

I'll allow a zero point breach of the maximum allowed.

5 points is the difference between a Mortar and an Autocannon. It makes a hell of a lot of difference to the Rhino heading towards you.

3 points allows for a Singing Spear upgrade. Make a lot of difference to the Land Raider nearby. Plus I get to hear about how his Warlock killed my Land Raider forever.

Saying; "It's just 1 point. It doesn't make a lot of difference" is a huge fallacy. That 1 point might be part of a larger chunk of points that makes it possible to field that extra Hive Guard, Terminator, Meltagun or whatever.

Saying; "Just add a Melta Bomb to one of our Sergeants and we are even" is a fallacy. Said squad might not have been taken to move aggresively forwards....making the upgrade utterly pointless. Hell, it might even induce me to stray from the basic tenents of my battleplan, which I had in mind when I made the armylist. Maybe I even considered giving him a Melta Bomb but discarded the idea because it was a useless waste of points.....and now I add it again to compensate for your unwillingness to follow the rules?

If 5 points is no big deal, then remove them. They are "no big deal", remember?

Thank you for putting me in a situation where I, by saying "no", is denying you your "right to have fun". I am not really given a choice. You broke the rules/agreement and suddenly I'M the TFG?!?

We have to set the limit somewhere....and that might as well be at the limit agreed upon beforehand.

I usually say okay in friendly games as people like to mess around with lists and try things out. In a tournament no way.

You may not go over the points limit in any game. Note however in a friendly game you may change the agreed points limit if both players agree upto the start of the game.

Failure to stick to the agreed points limit is cheating and grounds for immediate forfeiture of the game.

The point limit is a limit. You cannot exceed this limit in any setting.

But, if I show up to a casual game, I'll probably let 1 or 2 points slide, because I'd rather be playing than waiting around while you re-make a list. But, I'll secretly have declared victory because they cheated.

Grakmar wrote:But, I'll secretly have declared victory because they cheated.

Haha. Lots of opinions, I'm glad to see that!

The first step in playing a game is agreeing to a points limit with your opponent.
Breaking the first agreement you make with your opponent seems a bad way to start, IMO.
Though many folks have no issue with it.

Check this thread for details.

There's a reason why it's called a point limit, and not a point recommendation. I'm not going to call down fire and brimstone on an opponent whose one point over, but I appreciate people who bother with the effort to come in at or under it.

Blood and Slaughter wrote:Actually, now you say that, I think it was in Fantasy not 40K. In principle though I think it's a fair rule of thumb for friendly games where someone needs to round out a squad or something.

You seem to be mistaking some local house rule for actual rules.