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I am foolishly thinking of starting up a Daemons of Chaos army, but I have zero experience against or about them (nothing in my head but some tantalizing conversion posibilities). For those of you who play them, have played against them, or are familiar with them, what are their general advantages and disadvantages, as well as units which are must-haves, and those which are totally useless (and any noteworthy ones in-between)

To give a little bit for you to work on, I am thinking of a unit of Bloodcrushers (cause I LOVE the models), a Daemon Prince and/or Bloodthirster (heavy conversion ideas), possibly a Herald of Khorne, and very little in the way of Nurgle, unless I can find some nice non-GW counts-as Daemons to represent them.

Any assistance to a Daemon newbie (or NO-bie, really) would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Dakka!

-C6

Well, one of the advantages is they dont actually deploy, they divide their army equally in half and roll a dice which determines which half is going first. So on the first turn they deepstrike as normal (without rolling for reserves) and the 2nd half act as if they are in reserve deepstriking as normal.

Hope that helps!

Vendetta 476 wrote:Well, one of the advantages is they dont actually deploy, they divide their army equally in half and roll a dice which determines which half is going first. So on the first turn they deepstrike as normal (without rolling for reserves) and the 2nd half act as if they are in reserve deepstriking as normal.

Hope that helps!

So, by "deepstrike as normal" they have to sit there for a turn unmoving while they get shot at? Are there any units that are shooty enough to make that static turn (or two) worth it? Maybe I'm fuzzy on how deepstriking works, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

Khorne is arguably one of the more powerful Daemonic forces, so that's not a bad idea to start from. Bloodthirsters/Crushers and Princes are all good units, Bloodletters are very hard hitting, but are more limited in the idea of holding objectives/being troops.

Ultimately, some great advice can come from here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/327831.page (stickied at the top of the tactics forum)

and from Yermon at the Brown Paintbrush:
http://thebrownpaintbrush.blogspot.com/

Also, for further inspiration, check out FW's Khornate Daemon Prince:





Automatically Appended Next Post:

catharsix wrote:

Vendetta 476 wrote:Well, one of the advantages is they dont actually deploy, they divide their army equally in half and roll a dice which determines which half is going first. So on the first turn they deepstrike as normal (without rolling for reserves) and the 2nd half act as if they are in reserve deepstriking as normal.

Hope that helps!

So, by "deepstrike as normal" they have to sit there for a turn unmoving while they get shot at? Are there any units that are shooty enough to make that static turn (or two) worth it? Maybe I'm fuzzy on how deepstriking works, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

You're correct. That's the biggest flaw of Daemons, but does balance their otherwise very hard-hitting units.
Very few Daemonic Units are shooting, except for Tzeentch and Soulgrinders, the latter of whom compete with Princes in Heavy Support.

Daemons are more reliable/crippled/made on the dice than most armies, largely due to their deployment, but they are still a quite competitive army and very powerful when it all comes together.

I really like the FW Khorne Daemon Prince. If only the Bloodthirster were 25% as awesome as that, I'd buy it for sure. Maybe the FW Prince for holiday present...

I'm pretty set on the Crushers and DP, and the Bloodthirster (gonna convert my own from a plastic DP and bunches of bits and GS), so I'm glad to hear that they are viable units.

Overall, I want to create an aesthetic which draws heavily on the "traditional" image of demons, i.e. fire-and-brimstone, horns, spikes, claws, bat wings, etc. This of course most closely resembles the Khorne aesthetic, but I plan to mute that, and try for a different look (probably fewer skulls and spikes, and maybe even very little red at all)

Thanks for the in-depth advice! I saw some of your posts about Daemon tactics in other threads, so you really seem to know what you're talking about.

-C6

The cons of daemons are:
1) not much in the way of ranged combat
2) not many units can take a hit
3) entire army must deepstrike
4) half of your army comes down at once, no, you don't have much control about which half
5) many of the "good" cc units move as regular infantry
6) the ones that don't move as infantry, move slower, or are really easy to kill (t3 and/or 5+ save)
7) every model is relatively expensive in points
8) limited ways to deal with transports
9) no unit + transport synergy
10) pretty much an auto loss to grey knights, have a hard time catching fast skimmer armies (and DE wyches generally laugh at daemon CC units, as does the splinter fire and DE laugh at the tough things) Both GKs and DE are popular tournament armies...
11) many models in the range look awful (and anything metal or finecast is expensive)

Pros
1) short turns, you pretty much never have your whole army on the table, and a good portion of what you do have will just be shooting or running their first turn in
2) no time for deployment. All reserve army means your don't waste time deploying, and you don't have to worry much about where you put units, because the scatter dice have a bigger say than you do.
3) generally above average CC units. Some are really good, some are a good value.
4) moves as beast/cavalry units. hard hitting units that can hit things from a distance. Always nice to have
5) you can play for fun, as generally if you bring daemons to a competitive event, you have almost no chance of winning. Makes the wins you do get that much more satisfying
6)some models in the range look amazing
7)you can generally find pretty good deals on daemon armies on ebay, though you missed the big selloff

Good units IMHO: fiends, princes, heralds (slaanesh and tzentch only) on chariots, princes, seekers, hounds. All troop choices are good.
Units that are good in many other peoples opinions: Fateweaver, bloodcrushers, soul grinders, herald of khorne, screamers, the masque (i liker her, but I don't rate her high, more of a pet unit)
Units that suck in pretty much everybody's opinion: furies, anything nurgle that isn't a troop (some like GUO, but I've never seen the point of a slow turd like him).

The problem is actually making a list out a book that is so random (you need redundancy), but also lacks the basic tools of 40 (ability to kill tanks at range being the biggest) Almost all of the units are specialized into being good-great beatstick units, but there is precious little utility, and very few options to really deviate from a basic "stock" build without making a horrid mishmash or an unbalanced list that gets screwed by "wrong wave" syndrome.

I don't want to completely discourage you from collecting this army, but its only fair to warn you about their current challenges in terms of gameplay. Nothing is more discouraging than dropping hudreds of dollars on an army and then you go to play and get stomped.

You can make a very, very characterful and scary mono-god army (pure Khorne is insane, but obviously has to mop up in combat or you lose) or alternatively you can mix and match.

A line of Plaguebearers to hold objectives backed up with Bloodletters and Pink Horrors and some Bloodcrushers and Daemon Princes is utterly terrifying to face - especially with Fateweaver.

notabot187 wrote:The cons of daemons are:
1) not much in the way of ranged combat
2) not many units can take a hit
3) entire army must deepstrike
4) half of your army comes down at once, no, you don't have much control about which half
5) many of the "good" cc units move as regular infantry
6) the ones that don't move as infantry, move slower, or are really easy to kill (t3 and/or 5+ save)
7) every model is relatively expensive in points
8) limited ways to deal with transports
9) no unit + transport synergy
10) pretty much an auto loss to grey knights, have a hard time catching fast skimmer armies (and DE wyches generally laugh at daemon CC units, as does the splinter fire and DE laugh at the tough things) Both GKs and DE are popular tournament armies...
11) many models in the range look awful (and anything metal or finecast is expensive)

I think much of what notabot said is correct, however I do feel there are some 'null points' there also IMHO.
2) Whilst it's true, limited units can take a hit, there are also a lot of tough monstrous creatures in the army, as well as benefiting from invulnerable saves which are admittedly typically 5+ or so... I wouldn't say they're that much more fragile than most armies, if more fragile at all IMHO.
9) I don't understand this point?
10) Daemons have been shown to fare much better against Grey Knights than they did Daemonhunters and actually seem to do well against Grey Knights, not least because they are no tougher than a standard MeQ and vulnerable to the Daemons numerous power weapons. Dark Eldar are however very much a hard-counter for Daemons; who'd suffer against their mobility and poisoned weapons.
11) This is very much a matter of opinion, whilst finecast being expensive is true for everything.

It is worth pointing out that some armies really struggle against deep-striking units, such as Tau and Eldar for example, whilst this does close the distance for the Daemons to get into close combat, where they could well be the best CC army in the game. This doesn't however remove the vulnerability of deepstriking and the turn of firepower Daemons must weather...
Daemons do benefit from the anti-mech/mech meta, in that they have lots of inv. saves vs. AT weapons and no vehicles (but MC's) to suffer the wrath of these...

catharsix wrote:Thanks for the in-depth advice! I saw some of your posts about Daemon tactics in other threads, so you really seem to know what you're talking about.

-C6

I wouldn't say I'm an expert, I don't play Daemons or anything, I'm just good at analysing from paper and what other people say. Simple as that really! I can do it for other armies I don't play too. Honestly, I have no credentials to speak of, but I try to let my advice do the talking/show it's worth & reason IMHO... Thanks though, I hope it helps.

Thanks JustDave, Notabot187, and Miraclefish! I think this will really help me design a rough list. And I am definitely not that interested in competitive play - it's too taxing on the brain, and I need my mental energy for far more important things than showing up smelly guys who live in their mom's basement... (no offense to anyone present!)

Since I'm going to be doing "counts-as" for models I don't like, that will open up using a mixed-gods list, and let me avoid models I don't like. (frankly, I find the 4-god system ridiculous, from a story/fluff perspective, and prefer to imagine a more diverse and interesting universe of Daemons and gods in my head )

-C6

Advantages:
- Every units pretty strong at what they do
- You can deploy anywhere on the field; meaning your always in a position (typically) thats beneficial
- Everythings gotta invun; meaning you fear massed fire over quality (which most people run)
- Can throw people of their games, especially if they lack experience against them

Cons:
- Everything MUST deep strike
- The army is much like Nids; you need to create synergy between your units rather than run a bunch of powerful stuff
- GK that run a lot of interceptors/strike squads make the game pretty damn one sided

As for best units... depends on what you want to do. The two most popular builds are 4x Heralds of Tzeentch on Chariots backed by Bloodcrushers, Fiends, Horrors/bloodletters/plaguebearers, soulgrinders. The second is Fateweaver builds, which vary wildly, but my fav is 3 DP's of Tzeentch and a Thirster with fiends/horrors

Honestly, depends on what your goal is for an army.

If you wanna be fluffy with Mono whatever god; if your anything but Tzeentch Soulgrinders are a must for your ranged AT. If your running Tzeentch, more bolts the better. If your mixing gods, depends if you wanna have fun or beat face.

Biggest pro: they are different from every other army out there. Marines (of any kind) and Crons have similar stats and can be dealt with the same way, Guard, Tau and Tyranid hordes can be the same, Daemons are in their own league. Playing them when an opponent isn't expecting them gives you a good chance, as they have to change tactics on the fly. Plus a lot of their usually useful items will not be as valuable (like meltaguns)

Con: potentially random deployment-if you don't get your preferred wave, or you make a mistake choosing, it's an uphill battle or even a total loss from the get go. Choosing your waves wisely and getting the right one makes all the difference.

Me, I LOVE my Daemon army. If I could only keep one Warhammer army, I'd keep my Daemons. They got me into 40k, and they were my chosen method of fantasy back in 6th edition. Never would I give them up.

Wow, more great info! I was out of the hobby for many years - back when I played more frequently, I played CSM, back when Daemons were possible summoned units (circa 2003). I was surprised to see when I returned that they were a stand-alone army now, and that CSM got only generic Daemons.

I kept thinking I'd resurrect my CSM, but I just couldn't get a good concept going in my head (tried a couple, and considered one of the founding legions, but wasn't in love with any of the concepts). It finally hit me though: rather than using things like Bloodcrushers to "count-as" other units, and try to shoehorn some daemonic-looking units into another army's list, I could just play Daemons! I could shuffle around some models and do some extensive converting (which I love to do) and come out with an army that was cool enough in concept and feel (to me) to keep my interest.

So here's my rough plan: buy the following kits first:

-new Chaos Lord on Manticore (for the riders - I'd sell/trade the beastie)
-box of Bloodcrushers - and mount the Chaod Lord + Sorcerer and maybe another Chaos Knight on their backs. I think the Bloodletters look a little silly as naked Daemons on the backs of incredibly armored heavy cavalry. Plated-up (daemon) knights seemed like a better look to me.
-a plastic Daemon Prince to convert into a Bloodthirster (already collecting bits and planning this one too)

They're just too easy to screw IMO.

I played a game last night with my Mech Vets against a Daemon player who is actually quite good...he got 2nd in our FLGS' Ard Boyz. First turn Fate Weaver and co. pop down. The Plague Bearers got pasted by Manticore fire, Fate Weaver got PBS Weaken Resolved, shot with a multilaser, and promptly flew away never to be seen again. A full unit of Blood Crushers got annihilated by massed plasma fire, and all of the units that DID make it into assault had to hit my bubblewrap powerblob which held it up for 3 turns.

Basically, things that screw most armies (PBS, things that mess with reserves, things that mess with deep strike, etc.) really screw Daemons hard. T1 he lost about 500 points worth of stuff and it just went downhill from there.

Well, I live in a relatively small community, and I don't think I'll be playing that many finely-tuned competitive lists which really juice these kinda things. Moreover, it's a side project that I am mainly doing for the modelling opportunities.

That all said, thanks for the info on potential pitfalls and weaknesses. I look forward to trying out this kind of army!

-C6

I think considering you're going for the modelling side rather than competitive gameplay, Daemons should be a fine choice. Good luck!

NuggzTheNinja wrote:They're just too easy to screw IMO.

I played a game last night with my Mech Vets against a Daemon player who is actually quite good...he got 2nd in our FLGS' Ard Boyz. First turn Fate Weaver and co. pop down. The Plague Bearers got pasted by Manticore fire, Fate Weaver got PBS Weaken Resolved, shot with a multilaser, and promptly flew away never to be seen again. A full unit of Blood Crushers got annihilated by massed plasma fire, and all of the units that DID make it into assault had to hit my bubblewrap powerblob which held it up for 3 turns.

Basically, things that screw most armies (PBS, things that mess with reserves, things that mess with deep strike, etc.) really screw Daemons hard. T1 he lost about 500 points worth of stuff and it just went downhill from there.

PBS/Chimera/Plasma spam vets is kitted especially well to take down daemons. Key is to kill off the PBS (or as much as you can) T1. I prefer Fiends over Crushers anyway; much cheaper and can take down and catch things easier.

Daemons are VERY powerful played correctly; you can't just strongarm people like IG, SW, or BA do lol