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Dakka,

I haven't seen the new Ogres book and I have a tournament coming up in a week. I read on GW's site that the Thundertusk has an aura that makes units around it ASL. I was wondering if there is any ruling on how that interacts with The Speed of Asuryan racial rule for HE? I ask this, because I know there will be an Ogre player at the upcoming tournament and I'd like to avoid arguments with him.

Thanks.

It should function like any other item / spell / ability that grants ASL. So the High Elves within the aura will have both ASF and ASL, which means they will strike at Initiative.

What about HE wielding great weapons? Does that drop them to initiative 1? Or does the FAQ stating that they can still ASF with GW still apply, despite having to strike at Int?

Also, that sucks for HE players lol. Because one unit can cancel out an entire races special ability. I'm sure no one else cares but HE players, and maybe not even some of them.

But the racial ability of ASF was one of the main pulls for me to play them....Sigh, times are tough.


Edit: Also, if it works out that the Thunderstusk does make HE strike at Int order, does that mean they lose their re-rolls? Because it's not like they lost ASF, they just had ASL added into the mix of rules.

No, they strike at I, because SoA means they retain ASF regardless of which weapon they fight with.

If they do not have ASF, which they dont because ASL cancels it out, they then lose rerolls

Yep, ASF + ASL= they cancel out and are ignored. Check pg 66 under Always Strike Last.

They'd both strike in initiative order, with no re-rolls for ASF involved.
Always Strikes Last isn't ever indicated as a stackable special rule. You get it once.
ASF + ASL = initiative order attacking. With Great Weapons or with Hand weapons.

Yep, everyone strikes at I, regardless even of weapon. So those Swordmasters are still probably striking before everyone else

Swordmasters

Took me so long to finally get High Elves. Bought them ages ago, didn't like the models, but I was totally enthralled by their concept, their history . . . everything. The new rules came out, not good enough - I wanted style. Then they released new models . . . total dream come true

The unit has almost no effect on HE because every HE unit is basically one BAJILLION times faster than Ogres anyway. So them striking at base I attribute is still plenty good.

"almost no effect"? Losing reroll to hit is a BIG loss in efficacy for the squishy elves.

Personally I think that WS6 is still enough to hit a Thundertusk . . . also not that many models can attack the Thundertusk with that size of base, which means that re-rolling won't have as greater effect. IMO Swordmasters can have troubles with several large monsters due decreased models in base contact

Yes, you hit on 3s. That still means you miss about 1/3rd of your attacks, and wounding on 5's meaning every missed hit hurts you a lot.

Muahaha elves fighting in molasses too funny.

But yes they strike at I that means most stills trike before you but they dont re roll which makes them a little more than tall people which lack armor

Cerebrium wrote:Yep, everyone strikes at I, regardless even of weapon. So those Swordmasters are still probably striking before everyone else

Excellent, plus, with the list I run (lore of light), their going to be WS10 I10 most of the game anyway.

That seems...a little redundant.

The loss of ASF for High Elves is both as minor and major as everyone says. It reduces the number of hits by...20%, I believe. Assuming you need 3+ to hit. Not crazy, but not negligible.

14 SMs without ASF deal the Thundertusk 4.66 wounds (5), with ASF they'd have dealt it 6.21 (6) wounds and killed it.

Statistically, the re-roll would've allowed the SMs to kill it, as it stands, they now suffer its attacks and thunderstomp, plus the fact that they'll be in combat and open to flank or rear charges on the next player turn.

The re-roll here makes a large tactical difference.

Warpsolution wrote:That seems...a little redundant.

The loss of ASF for High Elves is both as minor and major as everyone says. It reduces the number of hits by...20%, I believe. Assuming you need 3+ to hit. Not crazy, but not negligible.

The Speed of Light (WS10 I10) is to ensure they hit first and on 3's. The Speed of Light combined with Pha's is to ensure that they are hitting me on 6's. As you know, the best armor save for a High Elf, is to not get hit in the first place.

DarkAngelHopeful wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:That seems...a little redundant.

The loss of ASF for High Elves is both as minor and major as everyone says. It reduces the number of hits by...20%, I believe. Assuming you need 3+ to hit. Not crazy, but not negligible.

The Speed of Light (WS10 I10) is to ensure they hit first and on 3's. The Speed of Light combined with Pha's is to ensure that they are hitting me on 6's. As you know, the best armor save for a High Elf, is to not get hit in the first place.

I do the same thing on the bloodletters.

Avatar 720 wrote:14 SMs without ASF deal the Thundertusk 4.66 wounds (5), with ASF they'd have dealt it 6.21 (6) wounds and killed it.

Statistically, the re-roll would've allowed the SMs to kill it, as it stands, they now suffer its attacks and thunderstomp, plus the fact that they'll be in combat and open to flank or rear charges on the next player turn.

The re-roll here makes a large tactical difference.

Yup, and this assumes the Thundertusk is in combat with maximum models in contact.

More likely, its hovering closely, or it double charged, alongside an ogre unit, so its only corner to corner with the Elf unit. thereby limiting the attacks its taking back.

Grey Templar wrote:Yup, and this assumes the Thundertusk is in combat with maximum models in contact.

More likely, its hovering closely, or it double charged, alongside an ogre unit, so its only corner to corner with the Elf unit. thereby limiting the attacks its taking back.

And doesn't take into account half the unit being wiped by thundetusk shooting (snowball and harpoon and maybe the chaintrap if close enough). Or the thundertusk having regeneration from a successful maw spell. Thunderstomp is still d6 autohits isn't it?

agnosto wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Yup, and this assumes the Thundertusk is in combat with maximum models in contact.

More likely, its hovering closely, or it double charged, alongside an ogre unit, so its only corner to corner with the Elf unit. thereby limiting the attacks its taking back.

And doesn't take into account half the unit being wiped by thundetusk shooting (snowball and harpoon and maybe the chaintrap if close enough). Or the thundertusk having regeneration from a successful maw spell. Thunderstomp is still d6 autohits isn't it?

yup, its no slouch in CC. it actually has more attacks in subsequent rounds then a Stonehorn does because it has 2 riders.

Grey Templar wrote:

agnosto wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Yup, and this assumes the Thundertusk is in combat with maximum models in contact.

More likely, its hovering closely, or it double charged, alongside an ogre unit, so its only corner to corner with the Elf unit. thereby limiting the attacks its taking back.

And doesn't take into account half the unit being wiped by thundetusk shooting (snowball and harpoon and maybe the chaintrap if close enough). Or the thundertusk having regeneration from a successful maw spell. Thunderstomp is still d6 autohits isn't it?

yup, its no slouch in CC. it actually has more attacks in subsequent rounds then a Stonehorn does because it has 2 riders.

Off topic but I have to say that I love the wording on the Maw spells, "Friendly units within 12 inches"

agnosto wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

agnosto wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Yup, and this assumes the Thundertusk is in combat with maximum models in contact.

More likely, its hovering closely, or it double charged, alongside an ogre unit, so its only corner to corner with the Elf unit. thereby limiting the attacks its taking back.

And doesn't take into account half the unit being wiped by thundetusk shooting (snowball and harpoon and maybe the chaintrap if close enough). Or the thundertusk having regeneration from a successful maw spell. Thunderstomp is still d6 autohits isn't it?

yup, its no slouch in CC. it actually has more attacks in subsequent rounds then a Stonehorn does because it has 2 riders.

Off topic but I have to say that I love the wording on the Maw spells, "Friendly units within 12 inches"

T4, Str3, regenerating Gnoblars FTW!!!

O'yeah, Thundertusk too

Grey Templar wrote:

agnosto wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

agnosto wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Yup, and this assumes the Thundertusk is in combat with maximum models in contact.

More likely, its hovering closely, or it double charged, alongside an ogre unit, so its only corner to corner with the Elf unit. thereby limiting the attacks its taking back.

And doesn't take into account half the unit being wiped by thundetusk shooting (snowball and harpoon and maybe the chaintrap if close enough). Or the thundertusk having regeneration from a successful maw spell. Thunderstomp is still d6 autohits isn't it?

yup, its no slouch in CC. it actually has more attacks in subsequent rounds then a Stonehorn does because it has 2 riders.

Off topic but I have to say that I love the wording on the Maw spells, "Friendly units within 12 inches"

T4, Str3, regenerating Gnoblars FTW!!!

O'yeah, Thundertusk too

I might add that it'll be hard to buff those HE units when all your wizards are dead by the end of turn 2 to vanguard/sniping maneaters. bwahahahaha

agnosto wrote:
I might add that it'll be hard to buff those HE units when all your wizards are dead by the end of turn 2 to vanguard/sniping maneaters. bwahahahaha

+ Firebelly with feedback scroll, Slaughter Master with hellheart (and lore of death).
I'm going to gear my army to snipe as many characters as possible.

-Matt

Quick side question. Can the Maneaters unit snipe with two shots from the brace of pistols? And can they snipe a character in the second rank and if so, does that character benefit from hard cover due to being more than 50% covered by the rank in front?

DarkAngelHopeful wrote:Quick side question. Can the Maneaters unit snipe with two shots from the brace of pistols? And can they snipe a character in the second rank and if so, does that character benefit from hard cover due to being more than 50% covered by the rank in front?

No. The sniper shot is a special shot instead of the model's normal shooting.
Yes, sniper rule states they may snipe any model they can see. TLOS.
Yes, cover applies.

agnosto wrote:

DarkAngelHopeful wrote:Quick side question. Can the Maneaters unit snipe with two shots from the brace of pistols? And can they snipe a character in the second rank and if so, does that character benefit from hard cover due to being more than 50% covered by the rank in front?

No. The sniper shot is a special shot instead of the model's normal shooting.
Yes, sniper rule states they may snipe any model they can see. TLOS.
Yes, cover applies.

Awesome. So, they might not be to bad with my current army set up. Because to shoot my mage you'll most likely be at long range, maybe moved, and hard cover, plus sniper. That's a -5 to hit.

I just don't know what's better. Vanguard or Scout. Maybe Scout; isn't that the rule that lets you set up 12" away from an enemy?

Some people were kicking around Snipe+Poison since you'd need 6s (or better) to hit anyway...

Bear in mind that they're BS4 and have nearly the same statline as Bruisers so they could just as easily put a hurt on most units in melee anyway.

agnosto wrote:No. The sniper shot is a special shot instead of the model's normal shooting.
quote]
This is possably wrong.

the ONLY case in which Sniper and Multiple shots are found together, aside from Maneaters, is the Skink special character and his blow pipe.

the FAQ for Lizardmen gave him Multi-shots and Sniper together. I take this as evidence that Maneaters get both shots with their Sniper Handguns.