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Note: Anecdotal evidence will abound.

So, being the bottom feeder that I am class-wise, I was thinking earlier as I destroyed myself at work for barely more than minimum wage. I'm eventually going to have a better job where I'll either work just as hard for more money or I'll more likely work less hard for more money. Many of the older workers at my place of employment have their kids who are over the age of 18 or their parents leaching off them for all intents and purposes despite them making barely anything. They work hard every day and have nothing to show for it but their family and the fact that they'll die before they can retire. I just moved in with my girl who works at the same place but gets her degree this year so the plan is to go back to school once she's out and finds a decent job so we're covered and I can cut back to part-time labor somewhere actually decent. That being said, and making such elaborate plans just to get an extra buck or two, does hard work even matter, or does it just make one a sucker under our current version of capitalism? If I go to work and do only a half-decent job but cover my bases, I'm protected by the union. I'd feel a little more worthless inside, but I'd be a lot more relaxed. As it is I feel the urge to do my best and give 110%, but I have no proof that it's worth anything other than me getting to pat myself on the back as I'm not seeking a promotion. I'm kind of failing to see what makes it seems like a good idea to the general populous, most of which I believe are smart enough to realize that as long as someone else is signing your paycheck, you'll only ever be 1/1000th as rich as them. Sorry if this seems rambly or banal, I'm trying to focus on the virtue of hard work versus the pragmatism. Thoughts, Dakka?

No.

Hard work only improves your chances of success. But some people can work super hard and just not get anywhere, while others don't have to do anything to get everything.

Thems the breaks

I always work hard and give everything my all. That being said, my job experiences have been far from labour intensive, but I've put in my fair share of extra late nights, covering for sick friends on my time off, and going the extra mile. I would probably be in the exact same spot I am now if I didn't do all the extra work, but I learned a lot more from the experience.

Don't work just so you can die. Work hard because you enjoy what you do. Work hard because you take pride in your work. Work hard because you want to.

I know its easy to say things like 'find a job you love', but we all know its a lot harder in practice. But there's no point in slaving away somewhere you don't want to work if you have the means and willpower to make it better. That's where the hard work pays off.

Either way, good luck with your job!

It does, somewhat.

It matters which capitalist system you're asking about. In a country with more even high school performances and access to the best universities being based entirely on merit and not your parent's chequebook, then hard work will open more doors than the luck of who your parents were.

And there's no denying there's a huge amount of luck involved that no system could ever get rid of (choosing to enter geology in 1990 meant walking out of university and into the dole queue, choosing it now means walking out of university and into a $100,000 job).

But there's no denying that hard work matters a whole, and that ultimately we've never come up with a system that manages to reward it better than the one we have now. It's just a case of continuing to reform the system, to continue rewarding hard work more, and remove luck wherever possible. Which is, as always, an on-going project.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Blacksails wrote:Don't work just so you can die. Work hard because you enjoy what you do. Work hard because you take pride in your work. Work hard because you want to.

More than that, though, I'd say work hard because something needs doing.

I don't regret the all-nighters I pulled getting together annual reports and budgets in my first couple of jobs, it wasn't fun but it was something that was needed, and worth my efforts.

On the other hand in my current job there are immense accounting resources, more than enough to cover everything that matters, and the rest really is just busy work, that doesn't really produce anything meaningful. There is no chance I'd stay back particularly late here, because there is no work that could justify it.

There can only be so many people at the top. And as there is only so much wealth, and so many resources there is a definite desire by people at the top to stay there and stop anyone else getting a slice of "their" pie.

I'd like to interject with my good friend, Wile E. Coyote. Every single episode of the cartoon centered around Coyote trying to catch the Road Runner. Simply trying to eat; keeping up the natural order, predator and prey, etc. The entire episode, no matter how hard he tried or what crazy new idea he had, he always fell flat on his face. Sometimes in the most off-the-wall deus ex machina way possibly imaginable. He simply couldn't get ahead. And after all of that humiliation, the Road Runner would slip in from stage left, stick his tongue out, break the fourth wall, get a few laughs, and take the spotlight. Rather than get behind the plight of the downtrodden Coyote only trying to feed himself, we're encouraged to laugh and kick our metaphorical dust in his face while we take the 'protagonist' Road Runner's side.

And that, my friends, is my take on capitalism.

Nah, I ain't jaded.

Depends on what you call hard work I supose.

I would say 80% of the time it will, but that hard work is no longer working late, doing extra shifts, covering people and creeping round your boss. Nowadays that just gets you stuck as noone dare loose the person who dose all the work.

This, however, is a good thing. I find that it is the learning, the taking an interest in things and wanting to put allot in to what you do, in terms of effot and thought, not just time, that gets you ahead. To often I have had bosses that think that working extra hours is the same as being good at your job. Just because you work long hours dose not mean you will get ahead, and as a manager I worry when I see someone working late when noone else is. It worrys me that they cannot cope with there work. In my team I will try and find out if it is that or just too much to do (not that I have had this problem yet).

Quality not quantity, and don't confuse them! If you want to get ahead ask your boss about training, show an interest etc, but don't be supprised if it takes time. It has taken me 10 years to being a manager. Now I am here though the field ahead of me has got allot smaller.

As for the other 20%, they make up bad luck, poor choices and the ones you will never catch because they have mom and dads money and contacts (take a look at the film and TV industry. 90% of the people at the tops parants were famous actors or directors etc...).

Lots of things reward hard work.

Capitalism is designed to reward having lots of money and investing it well.

People don't have to work hard to invest their money as they can hand that off.

I work hard at my job and put money into my pension scheme, which is invested on my behalf by a set of computer algorithms.

Presumably someone had to work hard to design the algorithms.

Right now I'm finding it really hard to believe that capitalism works...

I've been in a job since I was 17, worked part-time through my a-levels and university. Where has it got me?

I'm currently in a graduate developer job, which is £18k and is a pretty sweet deal, and I'm enjoying it a lot.

But financially I've been more-or-less broke since I left uni, I struggled financially all the way through, while a large number of my peers enjoyed holidays and the old 'backpacking across thailand' style affairs despite some of them never having worked a day in their lives. Now they are out of uni, most have decent jobs, most better paid than me, and are still enjoying holidays while this month I'm going to have to bum money off my parents just to pay for the MOT on my car, which I cannot live without (not as in some yuppie-bs 'oh my gosh I simply cannot live without my vintage jaguar in alpine green with the walnut panelling', I mean without it I cannot get to work, or anywhere else because of the gobshite british public transport system).

My girlfriend is another example, struggled to stay afloat all through uni, and now where is she? still working at a f#####g supermarket for £6 an hour (and only being on a 16hr contract), any chance of extra hours? NO said personnel, any chance of transferring to another store with more hours available? NO said personnel. Any jobs out there she can try for, that actually make getting that degree worthwhile? NOPE, try to grab some other BS low-end job just for more hours? NOPE, YOU'RE OVER-QUALIFIED

Whenever I check the news, all I see are 'CEO of big company issued massive bonus' followed by 'company charged with some dodgy trading crime' followed by 'everyone else is up gak creek'.

Yeah capital works, if your one of the fat fethers who sit in the top 10% of the population, getting fatter and fatter as they feast off the corpses of the masses. I used to think it capitalism worked, I wanted it to work, but right now I would like to see nothing more than watch this BS system collapse in on itself, and watch the fat-cats squirm when they get fed to the rats...

In my experience Capitalism will reward those that it has to and not before it has to either.

If you do not ask you will not get. You know those ass-hats that seem to get the better jobs before those hardworking but meek niceguys. Its simply because the ass-hats push to the front of the cue and ask the question - "what about me?"

I noticed this in my first job allot of those that had better positions were self important blow hards that usually relied on the much better skills of those imediately below them. So those talented individuals would probably be trapped where they were, sinec no matter what their results the blowhard would be presenting them as his own. I was also lucky in that I was placed with a very talented but near retirement manager who imparted allot of cynical but accurate advice. The two stand out points were;

1) Always ask the question - whether this is how to improve, am I doing this right, do you like what i've done, can I have more; whatever there is always a question that will either improve you or get your good work noticed.

2) There is no loyalty - If you quietly sit there and expect that the comapny will reward you, you will inevitably be disappointed. Ask the question, if you don't receive the answer you want look at alternatives and point this out to the company and they will almost certainly stop fobbing you off and do something. To underline this if you work for a company for an extend period of time you will almost certainly fall behind in earnings if you STFU and tow the line. Unions help, but they will not ensure that the best individuals are the best rewarded.

After 12-18 months of my first job the chap I was working with left suddenly for health reasons, I was left to cover all of his projects while a replacement was sought. They never appointed anyone since I was doing a more than a sufficient job, but I was still earning a Trainee surveyors wage. I pointed this out to the regional MD that I was running the divisions biggest projects but earning a starters pay and all he could do was say tht he would review the situation in 6 months. Sure enough after 6 months jack-gak happened driving the point home. I interveiwed elsewhere and got offered double my salary by several companies and left.

Since then I have changed jobs every 2-4 years always improving my salary and conditions. After a year or so my second job offered me a £2k pay rise I got £12k elsewhere.

I guess what I am trying to say is that yes you have to work hard, but you also have to back yourself and put yourself out there. Take your knocks, learn from it and keep seeking opportunities to benefit yourself never rely on others to offer them up to you.

No, capitalism doesn't reward hard work. It rewards those who provide goods or services that others demand. The rarer the good or the higher the demand the more reward you will reap.

The hardest working janitor will always make less than the worst NFL quarterback. The NFL quarterback provides a service (throwing a ball well) that others value much more highly than the job of a janitor. There's also a lot more people who can do janitorial work.

If you want to succeed get a good education and qualify yourself for a high-demand career.

Hard work alone, while admirable, will never be enough for succeess.

The best answer is "sometimes yes, sometimes no". A lot of the rest is theory on how it should work or would work in a perfect situation. The variables that determine 'success' are so varied it is difficult to nail down a formula: work ethic, personality, connections, historical events, geographic location, ect ect. It also usually takes time to reap the benefits so patience is a factor as well. Like in Gran Torino when the kid asks Clint Eastwood how he could afford all those tools and he tells him he got them one at a time over the years.

Killkrazy wrote:Presumably someone had to work hard to design the algorithms.

I'm reminded of all the Enron employees who lost everything talking about how they did what they were told was going to give them a good retirement. They followed the rules, saved, and worked hard, and got totally screwed. There are no guarantees. Of course the alternative is worse. A lot of it is creating the illusion that we control our lives.

tl;dr It isn't a guarantee, but it it does increase your chances if smartly applied.

notprop wrote:1) Always ask the question - whether this is how to improve, am I doing this right, do you like what i've done, can I have more; whatever there is always a question that will either improve you or get your good work noticed.

2) There is no loyalty - If you quietly sit there and expect that the comapny will reward you, you will inevitably be disappointed. Ask the question, if you don't receive the answer you want look at alternatives and point this out to the company and they will almost certainly stop fobbing you off and do something. To underline this if you work for a company for an extend period of time you will almost certainly fall behind in earnings if you STFU and tow the line. Unions help, but they will not ensure that the best individuals are the best rewarded.
...
I guess what I am trying to say is that yes you have to work hard, but you also have to back yourself and put yourself out there. Take your knocks, learn from it and keep seeking opportunities to benefit yourself never rely on others to offer them up to you.

All extremely solid advice and my observation as well. I've noticed though that if I ask a manager's opinion on what I'm doing then suddenly my work is 10x better even though it's the same work I do all the time. Whatev

Edited for being rambly. I'm sleep deprived hardcore.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:. I'm sleep deprived hardcore.

Is there any other way to post?

Ahtman wrote:

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:. I'm sleep deprived hardcore.

Is there any other way to post?

Inebriated.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:

Ahtman wrote:

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:. I'm sleep deprived hardcore.

Is there any other way to post?

Inebriated.

Touche'

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:

Ahtman wrote:

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:. I'm sleep deprived hardcore.

Is there any other way to post?

Inebriated.

Well maybe you wouldn't be so tired if you went to sleepsleep instead of dakkadakka.

I stay up to 12 in the morning and wake up at 6:30 in the morning, am I tired, hell yes, but I made the decision to do so. I then spend 12 hours on campus studying and going to class with maybe a bit of internet to help me calm down. After that I get home, eat dinner, and either study or screw around till 12 in the morning and repeat the process. Then on the weekends I work for 16 hours altogether, followed by any chores or odd jobs.

Capitalism itself works, yes. There are too many people who exploit the system though. I don't think it is "capitalism's" fault but the jerks that are more than willing to stand on other people's backs to shovel money into their wallet. Fact of the matter is there will always be people who are stupidly rich and people who can't seem to break even. I'm broke most of the time and it isn't because I don't work hard, but just where I am now.

The Foot wrote:Capitalism itself works, yes. There are too many people who exploit the system though. I don't think it is "capitalism's" fault but the jerks that are more than willing to stand on other people's backs to shovel money into their wallet. Fact of the matter is there will always be people who are stupidly rich and people who can't seem to break even.

So its kind of like Communism then, works in theory but not in application?

Capitalism CAN reward hard work. It sounds like the problem is that you have no where to go; you're chasing a reward that isn't there.

Warning: Lengthy anecdote.



In my scenario, if I wasn't so awesome at my previous job, I wouldn't have had the foot in the door to get my present one. The way I see it when looking for a job is that it's not a matter of just looking for something with good pay, because the money is only a part of what you're actually getting. In addition to the cash, you also need to look at where the job is going to get you. If there's nowhere to go, then you're putting in a lot of hard work for no reason. Most minimum wage jobs are this way.

daedalus wrote:Capitalism CAN reward hard work. It sounds like the problem is that you have no where to go; you're chasing a reward that isn't there.

Warning: Lengthy anecdote.

Spoiler:

I worked at a hole in the wall piece of gak computer shop doing repairs. I worked at Sears part-time during this as well. It was probably the most miserable year or so of my life. I busted my ass though. I always put in the most billable hours at the shop, and always blew my goals away. I was making more money than anyone else in the shop. Everyone else at the shop who had been there for years started getting new jobs. I stayed in communication with them.

At this point, the shop went into decline, with the owner starting to get more and more desperate for cash. He kept raising our quotas and getting on us for billing even more up until the point in which that I couldn't even touch a power button without first charging someone for it. Eventually, I got fired for trumped up garbage. A hard drive for a client I was working on 'disappeared' and then the owner asked me about it specifically the next day, even though he normally stays completely out of individual support issues. Since I couldn't produce it, he canned me for 'incompetence'. I found out later he did similar things to a couple other people. The store closed about 3 months later.

I was pretty jaded and messed up for quite a while afterward, but one of the guys who quit before me told me to apply at the company that he worked for (and that I work for now) and put him down as a reference. I applied, got an interview, and landed the job. I've been the superstar here total for about 4 years, and I got a promotion about a year and a half ago. I'm looking into what would be a step up from here right now.

In my scenario, if I wasn't so awesome at my previous job, I wouldn't have had the foot in the door to get my present one. The way I see it when looking for a job is that it's not a matter of just looking for something with good pay, because the money is only a part of what you're actually getting. In addition to the cash, you also need to look at where the job is going to get you. If there's nowhere to go, then you're putting in a lot of hard work for no reason. Most minimum wage jobs are this way.

You're anecdotal reference does show that you could have gotten your job because you knew somebody who already worked there and may have been a stand-up employee. Which is more of a case of who you know compared to what you know.

Or capitalism in action!

No-one said it had to be a meritocracy afterall.

halonachos wrote:

The Foot wrote:Capitalism itself works, yes. There are too many people who exploit the system though. I don't think it is "capitalism's" fault but the jerks that are more than willing to stand on other people's backs to shovel money into their wallet. Fact of the matter is there will always be people who are stupidly rich and people who can't seem to break even.

So its kind of like Communism then, works in theory but not in application?

I think it's more like Churchill's comment on democracy; the worst form of social organisation tried, except for all the other ones.

We haven't defined success yet, however..

halonachos wrote:

daedalus wrote:Capitalism CAN reward hard work. It sounds like the problem is that you have no where to go; you're chasing a reward that isn't there.

Warning: Lengthy anecdote.

Spoiler:

I worked at a hole in the wall piece of gak computer shop doing repairs. I worked at Sears part-time during this as well. It was probably the most miserable year or so of my life. I busted my ass though. I always put in the most billable hours at the shop, and always blew my goals away. I was making more money than anyone else in the shop. Everyone else at the shop who had been there for years started getting new jobs. I stayed in communication with them.

At this point, the shop went into decline, with the owner starting to get more and more desperate for cash. He kept raising our quotas and getting on us for billing even more up until the point in which that I couldn't even touch a power button without first charging someone for it. Eventually, I got fired for trumped up garbage. A hard drive for a client I was working on 'disappeared' and then the owner asked me about it specifically the next day, even though he normally stays completely out of individual support issues. Since I couldn't produce it, he canned me for 'incompetence'. I found out later he did similar things to a couple other people. The store closed about 3 months later.

I was pretty jaded and messed up for quite a while afterward, but one of the guys who quit before me told me to apply at the company that he worked for (and that I work for now) and put him down as a reference. I applied, got an interview, and landed the job. I've been the superstar here total for about 4 years, and I got a promotion about a year and a half ago. I'm looking into what would be a step up from here right now.

In my scenario, if I wasn't so awesome at my previous job, I wouldn't have had the foot in the door to get my present one. The way I see it when looking for a job is that it's not a matter of just looking for something with good pay, because the money is only a part of what you're actually getting. In addition to the cash, you also need to look at where the job is going to get you. If there's nowhere to go, then you're putting in a lot of hard work for no reason. Most minimum wage jobs are this way.

You're anecdotal reference does show that you could have gotten your job because you knew somebody who already worked there and may have been a stand-up employee. Which is more of a case of who you know compared to what you know.

True, but he wouldn't have recommended me if I wasn't impressively good at what I do, because who wants to work with someone doing a job when it's going to make your life harder? Also, that I've been given a promotion over people who've been doing this stuff for years longer than I have I think shows that hard work DOES pay off.

Some good posts here. I think Capitalism will generally reward merit more than other systems, but not consistently and not the amount that anyone would like.
I guess the best thing to do is keep gaining skills and keep trying. I spent 2 years either unemployed or working crappy jobs before I got into a career I enjoy.

Some good posts and advice here.

My anecdotal: My company has had 4 work force reductions in the last 5 years, focusing on supervision/salary guys at the plants and at Headquarters. Our plant lost 2 managers, 5 engineers, and 2 foremen. When you look at the engineers and managers that are still here versus those that left, the answer is pretty clear. Performance.

The ones that are gone did not lead their employees, own their projects, or deliver on cost/productivity/whatever.

I'm not going to tell you to buckle down and life will work out perfect and you'll get everything you want. But slacking off and doing the minimum will normally get you exactly that in return.

Best of luck, Cannerus. It sounds like you might be burnt out where you're working. It's never a bad idea to get your resume out there and see what you can find, just remember the expressions "The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" and "You won't know what you can find if you don't get out there and look."

Only you can make the decision, though.

Ugh. I hate that "overqualified" bullgak.

I got my two-year degree (And am working on finishing my four-year one) of associates in science to try to make my applications look better, but apparently it looks too good for most jobs these days outside of the top level ones... which of coruse I'll need a four or six year degree for. And even then I'm not even sure if THAT will make me overqualified-- if there's a derth of graduates and all...

Sometimes.

However, equally important are:

1) Education. Right now in the USA, the difference in unemployement between college graduates and high school graduates is double!

2) Employment field. Some fields have far more areas for advancement than others. If you're field doesn't then you're probably not going to get much of a reward for "hard work".

3) Investment. There are ups and downs, but generally, Capitalism rewards smart, long term investment. Just hope that your "down" doesn't occur when you want to retire.

4) Innovation. Whether by being in a field that encourages it, or by starting your own business, Capitalism most reward those who can innovate.

5) Meeting a consumer demand. This is most important. Just being inovative without meeting the consumer will not get you there.

biccat wrote:No, capitalism doesn't reward hard work. It rewards those who provide goods or services that others demand. The rarer the good or the higher the demand the more reward you will reap.

The hardest working janitor will always make less than the worst NFL quarterback. The NFL quarterback provides a service (throwing a ball well) that others value much more highly than the job of a janitor. There's also a lot more people who can do janitorial work.

Well said.

The best way I can describe this is:

Capitalism like to claim hard work allows you to reach to the top.

It appears to happen enough times that it can be seen as true. However successful capitalists by their nature do not like to share, they want outsiders to work hard but unless there is good reason to bring someone inside then their hard work is just something to exploit.

In reality connections allow you to rise to the top. In almost all cases where hard work pays off it is because it earns you a connection. The only exception is when by hard work or fortune you stumble upon a resource, then the connections are made with you and not the other way around. The trick then it to make sure you keep hold of the resource (be it a niche idea, gold mine etc) and play the connections rather than have the connections play you.