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Hey Everyone,

I'm starting work on a crusade era space marine army, and was wondering if any of the fluff nuts could help me out in regards to making sure my army is fluff appropriate, as well as codex appropriate? I have a few questions if anyone would be so kind as to help:

1. I'm well aware of the use of drop pods, rhinos, and land raiders in the heresy era books. I was wondering if variants like the razorback, thunderfire cannon, vindicator, predator, and landspeeder variants were used? All of them are "rediscovered" variants so I assumed that most if not all of them were designed and used during the crusade and heresy era. Would use of these sorts of vehicles be fluff-breaking? Short of buying second hand rt era models I haven't seen much besides the FW variant Land Raiders. does anyone have artwork or photos of heresy era vehicles, (other than the land raider) That I should use as a guide?

Thanks a bunch dakka!

Indeed, many people use old RT models as pre-heresy vehicles, and this would be kinda correct.
I've found this:
http://darogscompany.blogspot.com/2011/05/pre-heresy-space-wolves-vehicles.html
Here are the rules for pre-heresy Space Wolves vehicles - Thunder Rhino and Stormbird.

I'd use almost zero landspeeders ( but jet bikes are possible ) and no razorbacks. Anything else in its oldest Mk should be ok.

But they weren't using the oldest marks during the Heresy. Power armour was only one mark behind the current issue.

Durza wrote:But they weren't using the oldest marks during the Heresy. Power armour was only one mark behind the current issue.

It was more than 1 mk, more like 3

Ok, that's the information I was looking for. The models for the tanks have changed due to design and casting but in the fluff they are the same. That would work for me. I was reading on wiki that the razorback was rediscovered in M36, but I would assume it was used in the crusade/heresy and lost for 6k years until rediscovered. Retcon is so confusing when they bring out new models.

Durza wrote:But they weren't using the oldest marks during the Heresy. Power armour was only one mark behind the current issue.

Mk1 to Mk VI from unifiction wars to great crusade to heresy. MkVII and MkVIII as current type.

Vindicators were invented during the Heresy so they wouldnt appear in a great crusade army

From the Insignium Astartes article on power armour, it would appear that Mks II - IV would be correct for a great crusade-era force (Mk I was a significantly lower-tech suit used during the unification wars, Mks 5 - 7 were developed during the heresy itself.).

All of the Land Raider variants seem to be post-heresy (unless you want to kitbash a Land Raider Spartan, using the instructions from White Dwarf 120).

Of the Rhino variants, only the basic metal box and the Predator would appear to have been available in the crusade (a retcon, since by older background both the Whirlwind and Vindicator were used by both sides in the heresy). But you could make a Sabre Tank Hunter using the above-mentioned WD 120 and a biro. Some art from the old CCG even depicted a skimmer Rhino.

Bikes (perhaps the venerable Vincent Black Shadow) and presumably jetbikes would also still have been issued. Since Arkhan Land had rediscovered his Raider before the heresy, it would be reasonable to assume he had likewise found his Speeder. Thunderhawks were still being phased-in at the beginning of the heresy, Stormravens wouldn't be rediscovered for another ten millennnia.

Forgeworld has the pre-heresy land raider for sale now and the proteus forthcoming. I figured both of these would be fine from a fluff standpoint. There seems to be some differing sources on the vindicator, whirlwind, razorback etc. It's hard for me to imagine that these tanks were invented pre/during the heresy and never put to use, but maybe that's the way it is. I guess I'll just have all my rhino/razorbacks modeled to use both variants as options.

In regards to power armor I bought 10 sets of the Mark II squad from FW for 50 infantry, and enough phobos pattern bolters for the lot. I also picked up a few of the special weapon packs, heavy weapon sets and character conversion sets. At the least my infantry will look the part.

I've been through my copy of IA vol 2.

here's a list of all the SM vehicles listed in it (and their presence or absence pre-heresy)

Rhino: Was obviously in use during the Great Crusade. The venerable MkII chassis equipped with two bolters instead of a single storm bolter was far more common at the time though.

Predator destructor: Was widely used during the Great Crusade. The design dated back to the Dark Age of Tech and it had been used since then as the main battle tank of mankind (which means the IA could get their hands on it). It was during the Great Crusade that the use of heavy bolter sponsons became almost standard issue.

Predator Annihilator: Was invented a long time post-heresy. It was created by the SW in M36. It does not come from a pre-existing STC, unlike the destructor variant.

Baal Predator: Was in service during the Great Crusade. The STC was discovered by BA at the very beginning of the crusade, and they simply kept it for themselves.

Razorback: STC rediscovered in M36. Did not see action during the Great Crusade or the HH.

Whirlwind: STC discovered after the HH. I couldn't find any precise date though. I'd say during the Great Scouring, but I can't be sure.

Vindicator: Confusing history. The vindicator was invented during the DAoT. However, it gradually fell out of favor during the following centuries, to the point that it was simply removed from mankind's frontline arsenal sometime at the very beginning of the Great Crusade. The vindicator reappeared during the Great Scouring. However, your pre-heresy SM army should not field any vindicator.

Land Raider: Was widely in use during the Great Crusade and the HH, although the MkIIb pattern (FW's model) was more common than the more recent MkV pattern (GW's model). However, most of its variants were produced after the HH (the Crusader in M.39, the Helios in M.38, I don't have a date for the redeemer, the ares and the Terminus Ultra, but all three were created after the HH). The only variant that saw action during the HH is the Achilles, which was created in the closing years of the Great Crusade, and was only in the hands of the Imperial Fists at the time.

Land Speeders: Magos Land discovered the STC templates for grav plates during the great Crusade. He did not live to see the first land speeders which were produced during the final years of the Great crusade. The Tempest variant, however, was not introduced until M.38.

So, your SM army should include rhinos, predator destructors, vanilla land raiders and a few land speeders. yeah, that's all for vehicles. War during the HH was pretty boring actually...

Armour wise it was the traitor legions who had the newest armour variant (possibly Mk4 nothing on hand to double check). Mk5 was studded due to lack of materials and this reinforced its strength and it needed produced fast and cheaply. Mk6 was shipped out to the loyalist marines.
Anyone wanting to check this it was in white dwarf 128 or 129, and reprinted in the warhammer 40,000 compilation a bit later. Has the fluff even covered armour marks since 3rd ed?

The_Stormrider wrote:Hey Everyone,

I'm starting work on a crusade era space marine army, and was wondering if any of the fluff nuts could help me out in regards to making sure my army is fluff appropriate, as well as codex appropriate? I have a few questions if anyone would be so kind as to help:

1. I'm well aware of the use of drop pods, rhinos, and land raiders in the heresy era books. I was wondering if variants like the razorback, thunderfire cannon, vindicator, predator, and landspeeder variants were used? All of them are "rediscovered" variants so I assumed that most if not all of them were designed and used during the crusade and heresy era. Would use of these sorts of vehicles be fluff-breaking? Short of buying second hand rt era models I haven't seen much besides the FW variant Land Raiders. does anyone have artwork or photos of heresy era vehicles, (other than the land raider) That I should use as a guide?

Thanks a bunch dakka!

I don't think you'd see anything listed there other than the Predator. I think current models are fine.

Just don't use Razorbacks or Whirlwinds(and why would you use Whirlwinds normally?) and you will be fine.


Maybe have some Jetbikes that count as normal bikes.