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Why Bretonnians don't use blackpowder weapons while guns and cannons are widespread through the Old World?
And do they have cannons in their castles and on their galleons and warships?

I suspect they don't use them in field combat because they think they are dishonourable and unchivalrous. On ships I suspect they do have them only because ship to ship combat is much more inhuman and less personal than on the battlefield.

On their castles and for sieges I suspect they rely on trebuchets!

Pretty much what Lunarman said.

Using projectiles instead of getting up close and personal is considered a dishonorable act that is beneath a knight. However, that doesn't stop them from having peasants do it.

Problem is, peasants are tasked with outfitting themselves, and to simply have 2 long bows in your family means you're doing very well. They simply can't afford black powder guns.

As for the trebuchet, it's a mixed bag. Some lords think it's beneath them, other use it grudingly because they know how effective it is.

And then, how do Bretonnians stand against more developed armies such as the Empire, Dwarfs, Skaven and even Ogre Kingdoms? Magic won't help them as others have their own mages too.

They don't fight the Empire or Dwarfs as often as you'd think. There's occasional scuffles between the Empire and Bretonnia, but the fact that Louencour declared an "Errantry War" against Archaon's forces when the Empire was under siege should give you an idea as to how things tend to stand between those two.

The Ogres and Skaven are fought the same way they've fought everything else:
With valor and massed cavalry charges.

Kanluwen wrote: ...same way they've fought everything else: With valor and massed cavalry charges.

That about sums up why they're awesome and why they can be terrible in a fight.

The Wood Elves are deliberately interfering with the technological growth of Bretonnia.

Because all the bretonnians war machines are crewed by filthy illiterate peasants.

Then how did not the peasants rebel their incredibly noble masters?

How exactly do filthy, illiterate slaves rebel with any chance of success?

Another question is why would they. Some poor slobs think to overthrow the lord, if they my some miracle succeed, they will get mass charged by hordes of mounted knights from surrounding areas that would think nothing of skewering a peasant.

Well they might hesitate for a brief moment, the act might soil their lances.

Farseer Petriel wrote:Then how did not the peasants rebel their incredibly noble masters?

Because there is a significant difference between a Trebuchet and cannons/handguns.


a Trebuchet is slow to load and fairly inaccurate. its good for shooting at static defenses and large slow blocks of infantry, not a swift moving lance formation of armored knights.


That and the peasents are kinda resigned to their fates. It wasn't revolution that took down the feudal system, it was the rebirth of trade and the rise of the merchant class. The feudal estate lost its monetary importance to towns and Knights eventually became stone broke men sitting in decrepit castles while the world bustled around them. They had no reliable way of making money, they could only grow food and food wasn't expensive in Europe so they couldn't make much of a living. that and the feudal system is grossly inefficient for creating a food surplus.

Farseer Petriel wrote:And then, how do Bretonnians stand against more developed armies such as the Empire, Dwarfs, Skaven and even Ogre Kingdoms? Magic won't help them as others have their own mages too.

Sssssh, don't question the system

Farseer Petriel wrote:And then, how do Bretonnians stand against more developed armies such as the Empire, Dwarfs, Skaven and even Ogre Kingdoms? Magic won't help them as others have their own mages too.

The current level of technology in the Empire isn't to the point where armor is completely useless. Early firearms could be stopped by plate armor so there was still some protection offered by the steel.

Cannons are more damaging, but those take time to aim properly and it isn't an exact science. And you would also have to hit a moving target if you are facing knights.


And if we consider the fluff, Brettonia and the Empire are allies. as much as a, very, loose federation of feudal states can be allied to anyone. some Brett lords probably dispise the Empire enough to be enemies.

The Dwarves certaintly arn't overtly friendly to Brettonia, but they both share common enemies and the Dwarves don't have any holds near Brett lands. So aside from a foolish questing knight, Dwarves are unlikely to encounter a Brett very often.

That just leaves Skaven. lets just chalk this up to that Skaven tech blows up so much that it really doesn't have more effect then normal shooting.


Ogres, not sure why you brought us up. We only have Leadbeltchers and Ironblasters. Leadbeltchers are short ranged and will mess knights up, but it isn't stronger then a handgun so it will still allow armor saves. the ironblaster is just a cannon with more powerful grapeshot.

Bretonnian Knights hate arrows, since one of their most greatest heros was killed by one. Thus only the peasants may use bows and as we know, peasants don't have the money to buy blackpowder weapons (fi they would, they wouldn't be called peasants). Also as already said, most knights find ranged combat dishonourable.

The Epic Chaosdude!!! wrote:Bretonnian Knights hate arrows, since one of their most greatest heros was killed by one.

Wow I feel stupid. I read the story about that, and I know bret knights hate projectile weapons, but I never connected the two.

Grey Templar wrote:
Because there is a significant difference between a Trebuchet and cannons/handguns.

a Trebuchet is slow to load and fairly inaccurate. its good for shooting at static defenses and large slow blocks of infantry, not a swift moving lance formation of armored knights.

That and the peasents are kinda resigned to their fates. It wasn't revolution that took down the feudal system, it was the rebirth of trade and the rise of the merchant class. The feudal estate lost its monetary importance to towns and Knights eventually became stone broke men sitting in decrepit castles while the world bustled around them. They had no reliable way of making money, they could only grow food and food wasn't expensive in Europe so they couldn't make much of a living. that and the feudal system is grossly inefficient for creating a food surplus.

Not really. To any of that. Though trebuchets are definitely bad at hitting anything moving, I'll grant you that. But so are catapults and bolt throwers.

Early cannons and trebuchets were both items of tremendous technological significance. GW isn't always making historical realism.

From wiki:

The trebuchet did not become obsolete until the 15th century, well after the introduction of gunpowder, which appeared in Europe in second half of 13th century.

Trebuchets were run by master siege engineers. I forget what king it was, but he commanded an attack on a castle because he wanted to see how well his new trebuchet did that he commissioned. They were expensive items.

The feudal system was destroyed by gunpowder. A castle, one of the key pieces of feudal society, was fairly impregnable notwisthstanding a long and costly siege. If you wanted that territory, you had to spend months, and sometimes years taking it--which was prohibitive. You could have a relatively small garrison hold off a tremendous amount of attacking forces for as long as their food stores held out, and smart ones had lots of food. Gunpowder cannons made it so castles could simply be knocked down. The age of the elite knight was also quickly ended when platemail could be pierced from a distance by fairly cheap black powder guns by extremely cheap soldiers. A knight was a very costly thing in terms of training and equipment and purchasing their loyalty.

Yes, there was a middle class and such, but without the ability to get inside castles, that was irrelevant. If you plunked down a castle somewhere, you owned that surrounding territory because you had a means to project force outward and not be hurt in return. If overwhelming enemies attacked, you just hid in the castle until the cost of maintaining that many troops made you break off the siege.

There's an episode of the Tudors near the very end when they're invading France. Bolounge (sp?) at around mid-1500s I guess. They're all lamenting that combat used to be about horse combat and tilting lances at each other. Now it was just sitting in the castle while the other side shoots cannons at them (and dies of disease and hunger).

Trebuchets were indeed complex to build, but they are fairly simple to operate. turn this crank, put large stone into sling, pull the quick release, see where shot landed, lengthen or shorten sling/change counterweight to adjust range, repeat till range is found, flatten castle. a siege engineer could build it in the first place and figure out the proper sling length without as much trial and error.


Cannons did make Castles obsolete in the scope of inter-kingdom warfare, but it didn't make the knights irrelevent. They were still nobles that ran the feudal estate(which is a political entity)

It was the growth of towns that destroyed the Feudal system at the last because it shifted the wealth from the nobility to the freemen and created the middle class(who were the people who actually could afford gunpowder weapons)

Towns of sufficient wealth could actually have a sizable army of their own, and because of the money they had they could afford the cutting edge of military technology. The, now poor, nobility could only sit and watch.

Grey Templar wrote:Trebuchets were indeed complex to build, but they are fairly simple to operate. turn this crank, put large stone into sling, pull the quick release, see where shot landed, lengthen or shorten sling/change counterweight to adjust range, repeat till range is found, flatten castle. a siege engineer could build it in the first place and figure out the proper sling length without as much trial and error.

Trebuchets, along with widespread cannon usage, started (well, required) higher mathematics, however. Because to aim them required the use of trigonometry and such because they had such vast ranges. And you might be on a hill at one time, and castles were often on elevated spots. And each layer of wall was at a different elevation, etc. Though I suppose the early ones were just trial and error. But after missing by a quarter mile and the commander in charge getting really pissy, I could see you wanting to get more accurate.

In terms of background I would argue that because the tribes of man that made up brettonia refused to march to sigmars aid at the battle for blackfire pass they don't have the same relationship with the dwarves that was forged at this crucial moment in warhammer man's history. The Empire got its knowledge of black powder and steam tech from its alliance with the dwarves, therefore it makes sense that the early brettonians reluctance to envolve itself with the fledgeling empire and their dwarven allies lead to this.

HOLY FLUFF!

Revolution in Bretonnia would be a great opportunity for Tzeentch cultists who obviously want to break this chivalrous country down.