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At my FLGS i usually play a GK player WHO always beats my chaos marines with his Grey Knights. Experience so far has taught that a Khorne Lord with Wings and a Daemon is beyond useless and as well as a Terminator Sorceror so can anyone provide me with tips? Much obliged!

annoy them by turning an entire army of grey knights into chaos spawn or get lots of vechiles or spam lots of heavy units. basically spam.

Yes, but they have that rule thingy that forces Psykers to take a Perils of the warp test and usually a 4++ save gives me a unneccesary wound and also dont they have a high toughness?

Well a full detailed list will help out. Also do you face veriable lists or a single one that you cannot overcome? And at what point lvl. Never assault with your lord or deamon prince. You always want the grey knights to assault a unit and then you counter assault with the lord and or DP on your turn so they cannot be hit, and any negative effects that would normally kill you, dont happen. I use 7-10 man squads of plague marines for the assault breaker cause of their plague nades. They make effective assault sponges in most cases if you can whittle down the numbers of an assaulting unit. This can be done easily with the plasma and melta you have in a list. Once their numbers are sufficiently reduced (you want to avoid being significantly outnumbered i.e. 2-1) After the grey knight players assault unit is tied up, in my assault phase I allow my plague lord with daemon weapon to counter assault with a squad of termies or plague marines and it is an easy tactic with devastating results for your target.

I had a 1500 and 1000 pt game with a buddy of mine, neither he nor I find the idea of "spamming" to be compatible with sportsmanship so he took a decent list and I countered. I tabled him both games. Plasma and melta are your best friends and 5 man plague marine squads can take two.

OH and make sure that you stay semi mech'd up as best you can... and obliterators.... nuff said XD at 1500 pts I would love to have been able to replace my land raider with another full squad of obliterators. But in 1000 pts, it may be costly.. but oblis are WORTH their weight in gold.

Err... What negative effects? You mean like quick silver?

Vendetta 476 wrote:Yes, but they have that rule thingy that forces Psykers to take a Perils of the warp test and usually a 4++ save gives me a unneccesary wound and also dont they have a high toughness?

What rule thingy is that?

You might get more help if you provide a few more details. There's a good deal of variation in Grey Knights lists as well as Chaos lists. I doubt there is a one-size-fits-all solution.

I think its a psychic spell that gives I 10 as well as Hammerhand which (i think) gives + 1 to strength

Vendetta 476 wrote:Err... What negative effects? You mean like quick silver?

Sure. Lets do this right then.

5 termies and libby with quick silver makes them most likely str 6 and int10

This means thier gonna get approximately 6 hits and then 4 wounds on plague marines. To a 7 man plague squad that leaves you with 3 guys, one of which should be a pfist champ. Your gonna get 1-2 hits with the fist, then your gonna get 1-2 wounds. also your regular marines will get 2 hits and 1 wound. So you are gonna drop about 1 termie. That means you now have to take 3 no retreat wounds, which between your 3+ armour and 4+ FNP you will lose none. So now he has 400 pts being tied up by aroun 175 pts. Now its your turn, and you have a chaos lord of nurgle (in my case) and another unit of 7 Plagues with a pfist champ. They assault in. Now most likely your opponent has used all of his psychic powers and will be at his reg init and str. You charge in with your lord and plagues, and you will avg 6 attacks from your lord which with his poisoned 4+ power weapon is gonna wound 5 times thats approx 3 dead termies. He now hits back with only 6 str 4 power weapon attacks and thes must be allocated to the original squad of plague marines (the now 3 man one) hes only gonna hit with 3 of those (statistically) and wound with 1 (as he now must wound on 5+ ) so now the 8 remaining plague marines (counting all squads together) swing with 23 str 4 attacks (cause you charged) which will result in approx 12 hits and 6 wounds which equals most likely a wound on the libby. Then you hit him with 5 pfist attacks which is approx 3 hits, and 3 wounds. He now will statistically be very very dead. And you have survived a grey knights assault and havn't even lost a full squad.

Also you are quite welcome :-) your mileage may vary hear as you can never call what the dice are going to actually do to you. But givin average dice by you and your opponent you are looking at an easy way to deal with that libby+ termie squad death star that can pop up at 1000-1500 pt games. Just remember target priority and your mileage may get better

Thank You!!!

Wait, they can only allocate wounds on the original squad they assualted and also the tactic is still valuable using Khorne Berserkers charging in instead of plagues?

Well using berserks as the assault breaker isnt quite as affective because of their lower toughness. But Yes you cannot allocate any attacks to a squad ( or IC's) that has JUST joined an assault. They must go to the squad(s) (or IC's) you were in combat with in the previous assault phase


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ALso berserks dont have plague nades

All your HQ will suck. Your best bet is a Chaos Lord geared up for CC.

Field NO daemons, for obvious reasons.

KilroyKiljoy wrote:All your HQ will suck. Your best bet is a Chaos Lord geared up for CC.

Field NO daemons, for obvious reasons.

I disagree with the "NO daemons for obvious reasons" in this case as that is equivalent to list tailoring which is horribad form. Please provide tactics.

to the OP: If you are worried about your daemon getting wupped in cc by gk, or th/ss termies what have you, then you just change your tactics. Do what I described before and counter assault with your DP or summoned Greater Daemon, or just light the target up until it fails saves.

Honestly use standard marine squads 10 dudes 2 meltas champ PF make sure to get an icon of chaos stick them in a rhino and keep firing the melta out out the tin can till he pops them.

Termicide squads are good as well 3 termies with 3 combi plas or melta i prefer plas 6 shots at ap 2 sucks for TEQ

Some people are opposed to them but 5 chosen in a rhino outflanking with 4 meltas is a nice cost effective option plasma can work put i tend to try to infiltrate them if i can with plasma but you will be sadpants when you melt your own dude that costs you more then a termy.

Noise marines with no extra equipment except a champion with a doom siren and a PW are one of are deadlier MSU's some people like this more than zerkers as the i5 doesnt go away as i recal quicksilver can only effect one unit and last one round of combat im not sure if it can be recast once in combat

Quicksilver only works in the GK players turn (casts at the beginning of the turn). Also with a libby you have to realize he can cast 2 or 3 powers. If its 2 he'll cast Quicksilver (if his guys are a lower Init then you are...if not...uh-oh for you) + HH, so everyone has Str 5, then the squad can also cast HH giving them all Str 6. If he can cast 3 powers he will throw in MoT to make them all Str 7, or he casts MoT instead of Quicksilver (which is what I do when fighting plagues because they're slow). Also I typically roll with falchions since halberds make Quicksilver useless most of the time. So each model makes 3 attacks, 4 on the charge. I call these my PM eaters

Now we turn the tables and I'm playing my CSM. I love to lash the heck out of GKs. Oblits will kill their transports, my Sorcerer is tucked in deep with my PMs (who are using PGs) and my Vindys are lobbing pie plates left and right. Basically lash them into small circles for vindys to wipe them off the table, and if they shoot the PMs with psybolt ammo or psycannons the PMs will hold out pretty well. I would warn you to avoid melee combat if at all possible as CSM. I've tried with zerkers, noise boys and Sons. Sons held up the best due to the 4++ and pretty much held up a large squad of paladins while the rest of my army maimed, burned and killed. Noise boys higher Init doesn't do anything against Halberds, neither do the Zerkers.

The important thing to remember is when a GK can cast his abilities. Hammerhand can be used at ANY time, so always plan on the enemy having Str 5, or 6 with an IC.

MoT/Quicksilver are during the opponents turn, make sure you keep this in mind so you don't accidentally let them roll first when they are dropped back to Init 4 or let them hit you with a higher Str.

Sanctuary...the bane of ALL melee units. It pretty much means if you're going to assault a Libby squad, then get as close as possible (and carry grenades!). You will treat all terrain as difficult and dangerous, so 1/6 will die and you might not even make it to the fight. I've used this against higher Init squads to make sure if they do assault me I can put the hurt on them.

Some other notes...chosen with meltas ROCK! This is probably one of my fave squads since they are great at popping that back row of Psyflemans and Psybacks. Termicides are also great for this purpose. Another big thing is go with cheaper HQ choices. Crowe armies are popular, as are regular Brotherhood Champs. Nothing worse then losing a 200+ model to something half its cost.

Good gaming and good luck!

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote: But Yes you cannot allocate any attacks to a squad ( or IC's) that has JUST joined an assault. They must go to the squad(s) (or IC's) you were in combat with in the previous assault phase

This is news, or would be news if it were correct.

This is news, or would be news if it were correct.

So this is incorrect?

GreyChaos wrote:Now we turn the tables and I'm playing my CSM. I love to lash the heck out of GKs. Oblits will kill their transports, my Sorcerer is tucked in deep with my PMs (who are using PGs) and my Vindys are lobbing pie plates left and right.

GK laugh at Lash; first you have to get them out of their tanks and then you have to pass a Ld6 Psychic test.

pzbw7z: This is news, or would be news if it were correct.

If your going to challenge a claim made by another user please use references. This is not the place for drive by claim sniping, thanks.

So this is incorrect?

No hes incorrect. Per page 41 of the BRB under ATTACKING: Models that were engaged with just one of the enemy units at the beginning of the fight before any model attacks must swing at that unit.

I think I should have made that distinction clear in my original post that it only works if EVERY MODEL in the grey knights squad was already fully committed to the fight with the assault breaker squad. But seeing as they are charging you and have a low model count the odds of them having a straggler are so remote I didnt feel the need to include that. I should have however and I apologize for misleading you.

Vendetta 476 wrote:

This is news, or would be news if it were correct.

So this is incorrect?

Yes, it is incorrect.

"If a unit that is already locked in combat from a previous turn is assaulted by a new enemy unit, it can react as normal".

I sort of see where the notion came from, but it is entirely fallacious. Under "Attacking", the "beginning of the combat" is being misunderstood; it refers to the start of the turn's combat, not when the combat began on a previous turn. Otherwise, no unit would ever be able to attack a unit that charged on a turn subsequent to a round of indecisive combat.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:GK laugh at Lash; first you have to get them out of their tanks and then you have to pass a Ld6 Psychic test.

I assume you meant Ld 6 when targeting a dread or someone near it? If not then it would be Ld 9.

GreyChaos wrote:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:GK laugh at Lash; first you have to get them out of their tanks and then you have to pass a Ld6 Psychic test.

I assume you meant Ld 6 when targeting a dread or someone near it? If not then it would be Ld 9.

Yes, but if the Grey Knight player is in anyway competent he's going to have most of his unit within 12" of a Dread, and considering most armies have at least 3 of them, it's easy.

I run a GK army, and I find that the biggest problem i have to deal with against chaos is vehicles. lots of rhinos, land raiders, Gk only can have a small amount of weapons that can easily penetrate armor and most of them are on their vehicles (ie dreads, Ven Dreads, Land Raiders). When using Chaos their dreads are cool but can be risky. Use plenty of rhinos to get your overwhelming numbers in close combat. Also as said daemon weapons and HQs like Abbadon cause problems. Defilers are a great choice the have massive fire power and can ruin squads in CC. Just watch out for thunder hammers on Interceptors. Oh forgot one thing my favorite elite, the Vindicare assassin massive AP, best way is to run some empty rhinos so he is playing a guessing game since he can only shoot once a turn with a re-roll (BS 8)

Avoid these

Possessed
Oblits
Summoned Daemons
Vehicles with Possessed

Thse all count as Daemons. GK>Daemons. GK eat Daemons.

Deadshot wrote:Avoid these

Possessed
Oblits
Summoned Daemons
Vehicles with Possessed

Thse all count as Daemons. GK>Daemons. GK eat Daemons.

I don't care what Obliterators count as, they are still awesome. The rest is mostly rubbish anyway.

My friend plays GK and a few weeks ago we had a match, anyways i don't see why people are saying don't use daemons i used a Nurgle daemon prince with wings and warptime in one turn i moved 12' then i assaulted his purgation squad or something and i killed the entire squad flat out with one round of rolling.... it was a joke.

And a question what do you guys mean when you say counter assault? where in the assault phase do you counter assault this is news too me??? or are you referring to when your opponents assault you after you assault them first i'm dazed and confused by this term.

Sure, its fine when only 6 of the squad have NFW, and need 6s to wound. The other 4 have guns and don't even ignore your 3+ armour.

Buyt when you are a lonely Obliterator vs a Strike Squad, where they wound on 4+ (or 3+, if they HH), ignore your 2+ save and leave you with a 5++ against a lot of attacks. They have preferred enemy and reduce you to Int 1 when they charge.

As for Possessed Vehicles, avoid Draigo like the plague. Or like a cure to the plague, if you're a Nurglite. He is a lot better than a Hammer in this situation, especially Walkers. His Psyk-out Grenades will reduce you to Int 1, and Int 5 will mean he will strike before you instead of with you. He gets to reroll 1 to hit roll, or Preferred enemy if you are a walker. and Str 10 means he has 2 other powers to use if need be. 3++ is nothing to laugh at either.

Chosen C:SM with 4 plasma guns and a lascannon, or 4 lightning claws and meltagun. Chaos Terminators with many lightning claws, and Kharn the Betrayer. Basically, use as many plasma weapons and power weapons as possible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Obliterator plasma cannon spam.

Banzaimash wrote:Chosen C:SM with 4 plasma guns and a lascannon, or 4 lightning claws and meltagun. Chaos Terminators with many lightning claws, and Kharn the Betrayer. Basically, use as many plasma weapons and power weapons as possible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Obliterator plasma cannon spam.

Chosen with Plasma Guns; good vs GK. Obliterators; not so good. Remember Obliterators main ability against Marines is to hit them with a Plasma Cannon after being Lashed, however all the GK player has to do is stay spaced apart (or in Rhinos) with a Dread within 12", and Lash isn't touching them, and thus Plasma Cannons aren't going to do a whole lot. Furthermore, Obliterators suffer in combat as the GK get Prefered Enemy against them.

And Daemonbane and Psyk-out Grenades, Inquisitor Daemonblades with Daemonic Feud, Draigo's Titansword.

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:5 termies and libby with quick silver makes them most likely str 6 and int10

So now he has 400 pts being tied up by aroun 175 pts. Now its your turn, and you have a chaos lord of nurgle (in my case) and another unit of 7 Plagues with a pfist champ. They assault in. Now most likely your opponent has used all of his psychic powers and will be at his reg init and str.

Here's the problem with this...he can use quicksilver and hammer hand in your assault phase as well. It's a new turn so his psychic power count is 'replenished' (for lack of a better term).

You charge in with your lord and plagues, and you will avg 6 attacks from your lord which with his poisoned 4+ power weapon is gonna wound 5 times thats approx 3 dead termies. He now hits back with only 6 str 4 power weapon attacks and thes must be allocated to the original squad of plague marines (the now 3 man one)

Second problem. He can freely choose to hit any units that join combat as normal. Elligible targets are decided after defenders react and before blows are struck. You're lord and plague marines are fair game.

And you have survived a grey knights assault and havn't even lost a full squad.

Most likely you will lose your lord and at least one squad of plague marines if not both.

Also you are quite welcome :-) your mileage may vary hear as you can never call what the dice are going to actually do to you. But givin average dice by you and your opponent you are looking at an easy way to deal with that libby+ termie squad death star that can pop up at 1000-1500 pt games. Just remember target priority and your mileage may get better

You may want to re-read the rules concerning player turn (page 9), psychic powers, and multi-assaults as well as read the FAQs.