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My brother has just picked up some Assault Termies and is planning on kitting them out with Lightning Claws.

He is very secretive over his codex*, so I'm not aware of the good points/weaknesses of them.
He plays DA and the only few battles I have played him so far he has used:

2 Tactical Squads (Combat Split)
1 Devastator Squad
1 Assault Squad
1 Whirlwind
Some Termies (have yet to come up against them)

My usable army so far (got alot to paint) consists of:

1 Warboss
1 Grotsnik
20 Slugga's
17 Shoota's
5 Nobz
5 Stormboyz (+1 Nob)
4 Warbikes
3 Koptas
1 Kan
1 Dread
2 Zzap Guns
1 Looted Wagon (Boomgun optional)
1 Warbuggy
1 Trukk

Im holding of buying more until I have painted up the rest, (mostly boyz)

Whats the best way to take them down?

* - TBH, I have no way of knowing he is not cheating with some of his more unique stuff, but as I normally end up winning I let it slide.

His units are bad and expensive. The exception is the termies and then the whirlwind in relation to an ork army.
That is bad and expensive even compared to vanilla.

The buggy and trukk and boomless wagon are too fragile to be used without numbers. So you'll be walking.

At the back
Zap guns with runtherd and ammo runts
Boom gun

Everything else charges
37 boyz(any chance you have two nobs with poweklaws and bosspoles?)
5 Nobz(please have wound allocation and painboy.)
Warboss, powerfklaw+attack squig.
Kan
Dread

Then three units of koptas to take out the whirlwind. This is a bit overkill but never mind. One kopta with one rocket and three st7 autohits attacks from a buzzsaw should do it against av10, the whirlwind will not move.

Any Transport carrying around those terms?

Edit* If not, I would keep mobile and keep away and laugh at his points sink.

Assault Termies are actually quite easy to deal with, especially without a landraider. Once they show up, shoot them shootaz and your warbikes to drop one or two. Note that DA Terminators are both Assault and Tactical Terminators, meaning they can bring TH/SS or LCs in addition to shooting weapons. So charging them with boyz is always a good idea, simply to shut off the shooting. If you are facing regular assault terminators, you can simply move away from them and charge when you are confident to kill them.

Boyz in general are perfect for taking down terminators, lightning claws or not. Keep in mind that 50% of all those scary attacks simply miss and another 12.5% fail to wound your boyz.

Cheers for the advice.

As far as I am aware, he has no transports for the Termies, but I know he keeps contemplating using deep strike. (I haven't bothered reading up on Deep strike yet).

I have 5 AoBR Nobz (unpainted)
I have 5 Nobz from the old metal box, so have 1 PK (with Boss Pole), rest are mostly just Big Choppa's .

I have generally avoided the Trukk/Buggy, but have used the Boomwagon twice and it seems to do well.

He keeps making a song and dance about how his LC Termies will make mincemeat of my Boyz which is why I'm worried.

My only dealing with Termies was a game we had to abandon after turn one (something came up!), however I did manage to drop 2/3 Termies on the first turn!
I did contemplate using the Zzap Gun's on the termies (Zzap for the AP2).

Shoot them.
Shootaboys make short work of assault termies, even TH/SS ones.
Do Not under any circumstances engage them in close combat.

Just charge him with a big unit of boyz. You are going to be rolling the same as him (4 to hit, 4 to wound), and you get a lot more attacks than him. He will eventually roll 1's. Plus he is paying for power weapons; you have 6+ saves, big deal. My terminators hate ork boyz. Termies go in, termies don't come out. Simple as that.

Seems to be hugely conflicting posts!

It seems the best approach to me is Shoot them up, and then charge in to CC as that is a combo of what everyone is saying, so... deal with them like normal marines. Dakka them then squash em?

The best way of dealing with good saves is to just overwhelm them with lots of attacks. The combination of running in with an awful lot of boyz, shooting them and then charging them would tend to cover this approach nicely Also with PK nobs in the mix you'll get a reasonable amount of hits ignoring the 2+ at the very least.

Keep the high strength, low firepower weapons for tank popping.

Someone point out that LC termies cannot touch a dread or a kan.

Talking of just boyz then with Storm shields I would charge in as you have the slight advantage. LCs do have the advantage over you but you should charge if only to stop being charged yourself but it will be painful.

He should know that the usual set up, though not what I use, is to have 5 SS/TH with one model having a CML as well.

MFletch wrote:Someone point out that LC termies cannot touch a dread or a kan.

Talking of just boyz then with Storm shields I would charge in as you have the slight advantage. LCs do have the advantage over you but you should charge if only to stop being charged yourself but it will be painful.

He should know that the usual set up, though not what I use, is to have 5 SS/TH with one model having a CML as well.

This is true, however if the orks get the charge, they will be str4 and I4. Which means everyone is on a level playing field, so even if his lightning claws cleave through the boyz, you still get your attacks. Plus there is the fact that he is playing dark angels, who can only get 5 termies in a squad. So with LC thats at most 20 attacks. 20 attacks is a joke compared to the boyz.

PraetorDave wrote:

MFletch wrote:Someone point out that LC termies cannot touch a dread or a kan.

Talking of just boyz then with Storm shields I would charge in as you have the slight advantage. LCs do have the advantage over you but you should charge if only to stop being charged yourself but it will be painful.

He should know that the usual set up, though not what I use, is to have 5 SS/TH with one model having a CML as well.

This is true, however if the orks get the charge, they will be str4 and I4. Which means everyone is on a level playing field, so even if his lightning claws cleave through the boyz, you still get your attacks. Plus there is the fact that he is playing dark angels, who can only get 5 termies in a squad. So with LC thats at most 20 attacks. 20 attacks is a joke compared to the boyz.

I4 for nobz not boyz. Nobz squads want to avoid termies at all costs.

5 dead, 30 wounds, 60 hits, 120 attacks in a stupid math sort of way. That is assuming you charged which is important as next turn they will keep shredding through you. Against TH/SS they can not swing at you enough and are not as good at wounding but LC is awesome, never leave home without a couple in your assault squad.

MFletch wrote:

PraetorDave wrote:

MFletch wrote:Someone point out that LC termies cannot touch a dread or a kan.

Talking of just boyz then with Storm shields I would charge in as you have the slight advantage. LCs do have the advantage over you but you should charge if only to stop being charged yourself but it will be painful.

He should know that the usual set up, though not what I use, is to have 5 SS/TH with one model having a CML as well.

This is true, however if the orks get the charge, they will be str4 and I4. Which means everyone is on a level playing field, so even if his lightning claws cleave through the boyz, you still get your attacks. Plus there is the fact that he is playing dark angels, who can only get 5 termies in a squad. So with LC thats at most 20 attacks. 20 attacks is a joke compared to the boyz.

I4 for nobz not boyz. Nobz squads want to avoid termies at all costs.

5 dead, 30 wounds, 60 hits, 120 attacks in a stupid math sort of way. That is assuming you charged which is important as next turn they will keep shredding through you. Against TH/SS they can not swing at you enough and are not as good at wounding but LC is awesome, never leave home without a couple in your assault squad.

Yeah but we're fighting Dark Angels here, so 5 dead means the entire squad is dead. Mission accomplished.

Do the orky thing.......yell really loudly and charge!! who ever said quality over quantity...never met ork boyz...just drown them in bodies...

Something to note about Terminator armour is that it actually has a fair few weaknesses- first off, they do not have, and cannot get, assault grenades. Basically, if you manage to force them to assault through terrain, they're all striking at Init 1, no matter their weapons.

Second, they cannot Sweeping Advance. This is useful to know, since it means that even if your boyz end up suffering huge losses, and somehow decide to run, they have a decent chance of rallying (hopefully) and cannot get wiped.

Also, remember that they only have a single wound. So that means that (if they're all equipped the same) every 1 he rolls is a dead termie.

PraetorDave wrote:Yeah but we're fighting Dark Angels here, so 5 dead means the entire squad is dead. Mission accomplished.

I was just stating you would need 120 attacks on average to kill them in the first turn. So you will be lucky to do that.
3 to 4 is about average, but there is a fair chance you will loose all your orks as well.

He's lightning claw heavy? Go on and make yourself a SAG. You know you want to. Zapps can cut his armor and leave him with a 5++ too.

I would use Artillery such as Big Gun / Kannon AP or Zapgun at range to weakin them, then race up your battle wagon with mek boy w/ KKF and deffroller for that d6 Str 10 on the unit for the tank shock then off load your choppa boyz to finish off the stupid stunned gitz.

LordWynne wrote:I would use Artillery such as Big Gun / Kannon AP or Zapgun at range to weakin them, then race up your battle wagon with mek boy w/ KKF and deffroller for that d6 Str 10 on the unit for the tank shock then off load your choppa boyz to finish off the stupid stunned gitz.

Fearless termies? ap3 Kannon against termies?

In general DA shouldn't pose much of a threat.

5 LC with a CML for 235 pts is an issue as it chucks out two frags per turn and will be hard work to kill in cc. However one good unit does not make army so you should still be fine.

The easiest way to beat a tough unit is to kill everything but the rock unit. He has very little support so you can easily cripple him since he has so much in one basket. It can only threaten so much and Termies aren't fleet or anything

I"m generally quite happy to send my unit of 20 shoota boyz into termies - shooting first, then charging. The high number of ork bodies means I won't lose much, while the high number of attacks will overcome the terminator defenses.

Naturally, my decisions to do this, as well as my success if I chose to do so, varies on what the termies have - particularly storm shields and lightning claws. That said, I'll probably just charge them with a full squad anyway

Looking at what you have there, I'd be more confident charging the 20 strong squad of sluggas over the 17 strong squad of shootas. The higher number of attacks should make up for the potential to wound before charging with the shootas.

Oddly enough, I'm more reluctant to get into combat with assault squads, than I am with Terminators - they've done far more damage to my orks in close combat than termies.

I do agree that Nobs should definitely stay away from close combat with termies - they do not have the numbers to mitigate the damage.

MFletch wrote:

PraetorDave wrote:Yeah but we're fighting Dark Angels here, so 5 dead means the entire squad is dead. Mission accomplished.

I was just stating you would need 120 attacks on average to kill them in the first turn. So you will be lucky to do that.
3 to 4 is about average, but there is a fair chance you will loose all your orks as well.

Actually, there isn't. Even if all terminators are equipped with LCs and they wound all their attacks(rather than the average 75%), they won't kill any more than 8 boyz(+fearless) in one round of combat. However, if there are no SS, your nob will have a much easier time killing terminators. Either way, if a single terminator survives, he won't be able to harm the boyz much - at the very least no more than the units that now can't shoot your boyz.

Jidmah wrote:Actually, there isn't. Even if all terminators are equipped with LCs and they wound all their attacks(rather than the average 75%), they won't kill any more than 8 boyz(+fearless) in one round of combat. However, if there are no SS, your nob will have a much easier time killing terminators. Either way, if a single terminator survives, he won't be able to harm the boyz much - at the very least no more than the units that now can't shoot your boyz.

I was talking about the long run. I have given the numbers before it is something like 16% chance you will only kill 1 or no termies in the first round. In this case the advantage goes to the termies as you lose attacks and strength. It will take time but the termies will then slowly munch through you, you'll kill a few but not enough.

MFletch wrote:I was talking about the long run. I have given the numbers before it is something like 16% chance you will only kill 1 or no termies in the first round. In this case the advantage goes to the termies as you lose attacks and strength. It will take time but the termies will then slowly munch through you, you'll kill a few but not enough.

My experiences haven't really been as such. Bogging down termie squads with 20 shoota boyz has mostly gotten the job done in the end, though the combat goes on for two to three turns. Even past the furious charge stage, my boyz generally throw in enough attacks to make up for it.

It's times like those when the Space marine player generally sighs and depressingly comments on how the number of attacks is just too much, often followed by despair regarding the apparent inability to take out such numbers

Jidmah wrote:

MFletch wrote:

PraetorDave wrote:Yeah but we're fighting Dark Angels here, so 5 dead means the entire squad is dead. Mission accomplished.

I was just stating you would need 120 attacks on average to kill them in the first turn. So you will be lucky to do that.
3 to 4 is about average, but there is a fair chance you will loose all your orks as well.

Actually, there isn't. Even if all terminators are equipped with LCs and they wound all their attacks(rather than the average 75%), they won't kill any more than 8 boyz(+fearless) in one round of combat. However, if there are no SS, your nob will have a much easier time killing terminators. Either way, if a single terminator survives, he won't be able to harm the boyz much - at the very least no more than the units that now can't shoot your boyz.

If they're Black Templar LC/Assault Terms that squad will get wrecked, s5 rerolls on hits and wounds. They will get the charge off if in a Crusader, it has a 20inch assault range which can easily abuse even the best slogger. The Assault Cannon will rip at least 3 up prior to combat as well. A bad slogger will get baited to the point where the LrC only has to move 6 thus firing the AC and 2 rapid firing Hurricanes follow by the afore mentioned assault.

Shokk attack gun, as Mork (or possibly Gork) once said, shoot the fighty stuff and fight the shooty stuff.
Ap2 template, average strength of six, they goin' die!

Waaagh!!!

My friend uses a pair of SAGs in his Ork army. This happens with both.

He always targets a unit of powerful infantry or EWs, because without fail, no matter what dice he uses, he always gets a 12.


He tries to get them close to an enemy for the second shot, becasuse it is always a double 1. Ifd he can't he gets them away from his guys.


The main reason he takes them is because he has 5 Dreads, 3 of which are old metal ones converted with Wreka Balls and Buzzsaws.

Now THAT's a Mek army! Who needs the KFFs, if you got 5 Dredds and 2 SAGs?

Movac wrote:

Jidmah wrote:

MFletch wrote:

PraetorDave wrote:Yeah but we're fighting Dark Angels here, so 5 dead means the entire squad is dead. Mission accomplished.

I was just stating you would need 120 attacks on average to kill them in the first turn. So you will be lucky to do that.
3 to 4 is about average, but there is a fair chance you will loose all your orks as well.

Actually, there isn't. Even if all terminators are equipped with LCs and they wound all their attacks(rather than the average 75%), they won't kill any more than 8 boyz(+fearless) in one round of combat. However, if there are no SS, your nob will have a much easier time killing terminators. Either way, if a single terminator survives, he won't be able to harm the boyz much - at the very least no more than the units that now can't shoot your boyz.

If they're Black Templar LC/Assault Terms that squad will get wrecked, s5 rerolls on hits and wounds. They will get the charge off if in a Crusader, it has a 20inch assault range which can easily abuse even the best slogger. The Assault Cannon will rip at least 3 up prior to combat as well. A bad slogger will get baited to the point where the LrC only has to move 6 thus firing the AC and 2 rapid firing Hurricanes follow by the afore mentioned assault.

Sorry, but orks not being good at getting assaulted isn't exactly new. Those BT will wipe out a squad of boyz and then get charged by another one and killed. In the end, they still didn't make back their points.

Also, getting the charge is kind of difficult if those orks are riding battlewagons and/or trukks, not to mention a DA army being highly unlikely to field black templars.


MFletch: I would like to see those numbers. Even quick napkin math makes that number seem very high.

Crunching the numbers...

Using a squad of 20 shoota boyz, and 20 slugga boyz (all with nobs, upgrades, etc) up against a squad of 5 terminators:

(I won't post the actual stats and fractions, just the summaries)

20 shoota boyz:

Orks charge

After firing into combat, and after two rounds of assault, the results show the Terminator squad wiped out, with barely one or two ork casualties.


Terminators Charge

After firing into combat, and after two turns of Assault, the Orks break and flee, about 9 remaining, with 1 to 2 surviving terinators.



20 Slugga Boyz

Orks charge

After firing into combat, and two turns of assault, the Terminators are wiped out, with barely one Ork casualty.


Terminators Charge

This one actually comes down to the wire, it could easily swing to an Ork victory, though with only four or five orks left. Considering poor Ork leadership, it's probably safer to assume that Orks lost leadership during the third round and ran.


It's always interesting to note the drastically different outcomes based on who gets the charge, and just goes to further underline how important it is for Orks (and by extension, those fighting against Orks).

Naturally, this changes depending on what the termies have equipped, but Orks certainly have a much larger chance than 16% to kill off a single terminator. Even a squad of 12 sluggas are going to take out one or two on the turn they charge (though overall, it's very likely the Termies will come out on top).

Stormshields will slow combat down, in regards to hindering the Powerklaw aspect and increasing the survivability of the Termies, and Lightning claws will kill off one or two more orks than usual, but it doesn't negate the sheer weight of numbers the orks throw onto the terminators.

EDIT: Woops, fixed some mistakes in there - forgot that normal termies hit at Initiative 1. So used to Orks always hitting last