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So my buddy sent me a list he's building to critique before he pulls the trigger on some big purchases, and I thought I'd bring it to the experts before I weigh in.
It looks kind of cool to me, Lots of answers, good synergy, totally the opposite of the armies I'm used to playing.

Librarian Stock, Null Zone, Smite 100
4x 5 Stock Tacs 360
3x Lazorbacks 225 & 1x Razorback TLHF 65
1x5 Scouts + Cloaks 90
1x5 Scouts + Cloaks 90

Fast attack
2 attack bikes, 2xMM 100
2 attack bikes, 2xMM 100
2 attack bikes, 2xMM 100

Elite
3 Ironclads 450

HVY
2xThunderfire Cannon 200
1xVindicator 115

I love vanilla marines. But your list does need a little work. Here is my fun list to check out for example. As you can see it does have what it takes to eat meq and gun down hordes. It does lack the Meq but I wanted this list to be as foot slogging as possible. Also the lack of Fast Attack can be a pain but combat squads are your friend. Also savvy use of combat tactics is invaluable. Knowing when to run and regroup is amazing.

My vanilla marines foot list


Counts As Captain Sicarius

Libby in Power Armor Null Zone, Gate, combi flamer

2x Dreadnought w/tllc and missile launcher and Extra Armor

1xTerminator Assault Squad w/thunder hammers and storm shields

2x Tac squads: Sgt w/power fist, combi melta, meltagun, and multimelta one Sgt has teleport homer

2x Tac Squads: Sgt w/power fist, combi flamer, flamer, missile launcher one Sgt has teleport homer

3x Thunder Fire Cannons

The Dreads and T. Fire Cannons are gonna sit as far away as possible and just blast at things with one tac squad staying behind to keep the thunder fire cannons safe. The tank hunting tac squad with the teleport homer will be given infiltrate by Sicarius so they can put the pressure on fast. I will deep strike the termies near the infiltrated tac squad or near the other tac squad with teleport homer for support. Sicarius will hide and come out and hunt monstrous creatures or other hq. The Libby will also probably hide in the back and support units by casting null zone or gating the tac squads near or around the teleport homer squads.


Hope this helps. If I were to make this a bit more competitive I would drop the Cannons and take a LRC and two predators. I would drop the tac squads to three and put them in rhinos and keep them as basic as possible. Loadout would look like Sgt w/power fist, flamer, and missile launcher. I would also go with two land Speeder typhoons w/multimeltas. I would also add an Iron clad with a drop pod.

Vanilla marines offer a lot of flexibility and offer you many many builds. I hope your friend has fun.

Can you put some info in here of what he's looking to accomplish, maybe what he's willing to remove or add to his army? I'd love to give some advice, and, if you're looking to re-hash the list there's some ideas. If you're looking to have it revamped or swap some guys out a bit, there's other answers that would go with that

Post it up and let us know, I'd be happy to suggest.

The point of the list was to fill the entire force org chart. However he missed that by only playing 1 HQ. He had to lose his vanilla chapter master in order to afford all the melta and the ironclad upgrades.

I would loose the Vindi and go all TFC. 12 small templates a turn will mess up anybody.

Also, why does he want to fill the full org chart? Thats a lot of troops, and I really don't see the 5 man scout squads doing much, aside from filling slots.

If he wants to fill an entire force org chart, he should go for a full battle company, and hit 2500 points. Here's a battle company list i've been messing with that would be hella fun to play, and to just see on the table -

HQ - Captain in power armor - Lightning claw, storm bolter, jump pack - 143 pts

Troops - 10 man tac squad(melta, combi-melta, lascannon) in razorback - 235 pts
Troops - 10 man tac squad(melta, combi-melta, lascannon) in razorback - 235 pts
Troops - 10 man tac squad(melta, combi-melta, lascannon) in razorback - 235 pts
Troops - 10 man tac squad(melta, combi-melta, lascannon) in razorback - 235 pts
Troops - 10 man tac squad(melta, combi-melta, lascannon) in razorback - 235 pts
Troops - 10 man tac squad(melta, combi-melta, lascannon) in razorback - 235 pts

Fast- 10 man assault squad (2x flamer, Thunder Hammer sarge) - 240 pts
Fast - 10 man assault squad (2x flamer, Power Sword sarge) - 235 pts

Heavy- 10 man Dev squad (4x missiles) - 230 pts
Heavy- 10 man Dev squad (2x heavy bolter, 2x plasma cannon) - 250 pts


Now THATS a crap-ton of bodies on the table, with a LOT of firepower

Horst wrote:If he wants to fill an entire force org chart, he should go for a full battle company, and hit 2500 points. Here's a battle company list i've been messing with that would be hella fun to play, and to just see on the table -

HQ - Captain in power armor - Lightning claw, storm bolter, jump pack - 143 pts

Troops - 10 man tac squad(melta, combi-melta, lascannon) in razorback - 235 pts
Troops - 10 man tac squad(melta, combi-melta, lascannon) in razorback - 235 pts
Troops - 10 man tac squad(melta, combi-melta, lascannon) in razorback - 235 pts
Troops - 10 man tac squad(melta, combi-melta, lascannon) in razorback - 235 pts
Troops - 10 man tac squad(melta, combi-melta, lascannon) in razorback - 235 pts
Troops - 10 man tac squad(melta, combi-melta, lascannon) in razorback - 235 pts

Fast- 10 man assault squad (2x flamer, Thunder Hammer sarge) - 240 pts
Fast - 10 man assault squad (2x flamer, Power Sword sarge) - 235 pts

Heavy- 10 man Dev squad (4x missiles) - 230 pts
Heavy- 10 man Dev squad (2x heavy bolter, 2x plasma cannon) - 250 pts


Now THATS a crap-ton of bodies on the table, with a LOT of firepower

Razor backs can only hold six models. You would have to swap them out for rhinos.

Tyranids? Tyranids. wrote:

Horst wrote:If he wants to fill an entire force org chart, he should go for a full battle company, and hit 2500 points. Here's a battle company list i've been messing with that would be hella fun to play, and to just see on the table -

HQ - Captain in power armor - Lightning claw, storm bolter, jump pack - 143 pts

Troops - 10 man tac squad(melta, combi-melta, lascannon) in razorback - 235 pts
Troops - 10 man tac squad(melta, combi-melta, lascannon) in razorback - 235 pts
Troops - 10 man tac squad(melta, combi-melta, lascannon) in razorback - 235 pts
Troops - 10 man tac squad(melta, combi-melta, lascannon) in razorback - 235 pts
Troops - 10 man tac squad(melta, combi-melta, lascannon) in razorback - 235 pts
Troops - 10 man tac squad(melta, combi-melta, lascannon) in razorback - 235 pts

Fast- 10 man assault squad (2x flamer, Thunder Hammer sarge) - 240 pts
Fast - 10 man assault squad (2x flamer, Power Sword sarge) - 235 pts

Heavy- 10 man Dev squad (4x missiles) - 230 pts
Heavy- 10 man Dev squad (2x heavy bolter, 2x plasma cannon) - 250 pts


Now THATS a crap-ton of bodies on the table, with a LOT of firepower

Razor backs can only hold six models. You would have to swap them out for rhinos.

Combat squads.

Yea, you'd have 6 lascannons chilling in the back adding their fire to the dev squads.

6 lascannons and 4 missiles should be able to deal with light transports, while the 12 melta guns in the razors tear through the heavier armor, and any light infantry on the table can eat assault marines, plasma cannons, heavy bolters, and bolters

The only suggestion I'd give, is to seriously think about the 3xIronclads and 3xAttack bikes. 1 or 2 of each should be plenty, and, with no great way of putting the ironclad into play (unless you drop pod it), it'll probably get aced before it gets into the fray in that large of a point game.

The attack bikes are effective, but, too many IMO.

I'd just look at diversifying the Elite slot and the FA slot. Also, if he chooses to keep the scouts, he should either give them cloaks, sniper rifles and a missilie lanucher and let them sit back and support/hold an objective (camo cloaks will add in the bonus for cover save) making them 2+ cover saves if in a ruin, with cloaks and have gone to ground. It can be nasty trying to shoot them out of their dug in position.

If he's going to keep them as combat ones, gotta slap a PF and/or meltabombs on the sergeant and use them as 1 unit, otherwise they'll get slaughtered.

Those are just IMO

Jardaddy, the Scouts are Cloaked, and I assume are armed with sniper rifles. The Two scout squads synergize pretty well with the two Techmarines from the thunderfire cannons for bolstered ruins + stealth. Sticking a scout squad on an objective in terrain with cloaks is pretty nice. 6 attack bikes does seem like a lot, but in three squads of 2 I think that they're meant to take on Grey Knights MSU armies. Still, knocking that down to 2x2 will free up enough points for 2 drop pods, and knocking one iron clad down to a regular dread will free up the points for a 3rd pod.

Horst: Unfortunately, 2000 points is the limit, and I think that an all infantry army is more of a novelty than a competitive choice unless you're playing space wolves.

Is this list competitive vs. GK?
Is this list competetive vs. SW MSU (like the recent nova winning list)

If you were going to tailor this list to take on GK or SW, what would you swap out?

The main problem with your army is that you have very, very little LONG RANGED anti-tank, and not enough meltas to make up for it. You have 9 melta guns in the army, and 3 lascannons. Thats basically the extent of your anti-tank. This is not nearly enough. The thunderfires are nice and all, but I think you really need those heavy slots for ranged anti-tank instead of anti-infantry. A predator with AC/Las will do much better for you than those thunderfires will.. and even if you have a 3+ save from the ruins on the cannons, autocannons / heavy bolters will still put them down fairly quickly.

Another problem is that you have very little heavy armor, especially if you go for podding dreads. Turn 1 your only going to get in 1 of your 2 dreads, and then you have 4 razors and a dread to eat all the anti-tank fire, with nothing bigger and scarier to eat up anti-tank fire.

At this points level, I would honestly go for something like this -

HQ- Librarian (null zone + avenger)

Elite- Dreadnought (2x TL Autocannons) - 125 pts
Elite- Dreadnought (2x TL Autocannons) - 125 pts
Elite- 5x Assault Terminators (4x Hammer 1x Claw)
Dedicated- Land Raider (multimelta) - 260 points

Troops- 10 man tac squad (melta, combi-melta sarge, missile) in assault cannon razorback - 260 pts
Troops- 10 man tac squad (melta, combi-melta sarge, missile) in assault cannon razorback - 260 pts
Troops- 10 man tac squad (melta, missile) in assault cannon razorback - 250 pts

Fast- Land Speeder Typhoon - 90 pts
Fast- Land Speeder Typhoon - 90 pts

Heavy- Vindicator w/ dozer blade - 120 pts
Heavy- Vindicator w/ dozer blade - 120 pts





With this, you have 2 TL Lascannons, 8 TL autocannons, and 7 missile shots to deal with long range threats, not to mention the 5 meltas and 3 TL assault cannons. You maintain pretty good anti-horde, with the typhoons able to fire frag missiles, and the 2 vindicators putting out pie plates. Most importantly, you gain thunderhammer terminators, which are pretty much the best unit marines have against any deathstar unit. Just shoot it up with a round of anti-tank fire, then charge in those 5 terminators... not much lives through that, and if it does, its usually in no condition to threaten you for the rest of the game.

Horst, I dig that list.
Is there a way to compromise so that it's less of a drastic change from the OP?

I get the need for Anti-Tank, but I see plenty of winning Tournament lists without heavy armor, and we know the tournament environment is filled with melta and missiles.

I think that more targets is preferable to bigger targets.

A compromise in the heavy slot might be.
1 Predator + side sponson LCs
1 Thunderfire
1 Vindicator

I see you cut the bikes for landspeeders, but what about Scout Bikes instead? Combi-melta + Melta Bombs with a nice big scout move to get those first turn anti-armor hits in. 2 squads of scout bikers can disable armored threats right off the bat, and say 1 squad of MM attack bikes can run around doing cleanup?

Also, I feel like the Ironclads are a justified expenditure, as they bring the ability to really screw over the most common tournament units in CC. But maybe swapping them out for melta toting Sternguard Squads in Drop Pods? Or, shave some points and equip the 3 dreads with 2x HK missiles each for extra anti-armor punch?

Thoughts?

I play GK and BA. And I play against SW. I'll put a nilla list together and post it when I get home that will be designed to combat my army.

It'll be around 4:30 cst.

Try ditching the Ironclads and bulking up the Tacticals to 10 man, add meltas and missile launchers to those. Switch your Thunderfires to Vindicators or perhaps auto/las Predators, drop a Scout squad to pay this.

So you're looking at:

Librarian

10 x Tactical Marines w/ Razorback - meltagun & missile launcher - Razorback w/ twin-linked lascannon
10 x Tactical Marines w/ Razorback - meltagun & missile launcher - Razorback w/ twin-linked lascannon
10 x Tactical Marines w/ Razorback - flamer & missile launcher - Razorback w/ twin-linked lascannon
10 x Tactical Marines w/ Razorback - flamer & missile launcher - Razorback w/ twin-linked lascannon
5 x Scouts - camo cloaks and sniper rifles

2 x Attack Bikes - 2 x multi meltas
2 x Attack Bikes - 2 x multi meltas
2 x Attack Bikes - 2 x multi meltas

Vindicator
Vindicator
Vindicator

Now you have enough ranged anti tank, melta and ability to deal with hordes as well.