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Hello Dakka!

I'm 23 years old at the moment and graduated from MSOE in Milwaukee and a German university in July with an american B.Sc. of Mech.Engineering and a German Diplom in Maschinenbau. I started looking for jobs over the last months and have sent applications to Draeger Safety, a company with a large presence in my hometown, and a research laboratory at our local medical university (which also needs some engineers).

However, as I continued looking for possible jobs and while (still) waiting for answers from those companies/instiutions, I found an old information folder from the German Bundeswehr...and, as it turns out, as someone who already has a degree in something, I would have good chances of rather quickly becoming an officer...the starting rank in my situation would already be captain or captain-lieutenant...I've played with the idea of joining the military for a while now, but this is now the point where I could really make that decision. I'm especially looking at positions in the German Navy right now...either on one of the ships or maybe in one of the special forces, like our Minentaucher (a bit like the American UDT perhaps, though Minentaucher are limited to defusing mines, bombs, IEDs, stuff like that while they leave the black ops to our combat frogmen).

Now, this is a difficult situation right now. Civilian job with a normal 35 or 40 hour week, more time for friends and general entertainment, but in the end a rather ordinary living behind a desk...or a military life, where I would have to pledge to serve for at least 5 years as far as I can see it, with a majority of the work-week spent on base or whole months spent on ships, less privacy and free time, but also probably more action and irreplacable experiences that I would never get in civilian life. (Also, moar awesome hardcore physical training!)

Now, Dakka seems to have a nice mix of civilians and soldiers...I made this thread in the hope that people might point out certain advantages and disadvantages they can think of for BOTH sides, and maybe enrich the thread with personal stories and what they think.

So...soldier or civilian?


Thanks for reading!
Witzkatz

What do you expect to get out of the military? Not just training, but emotionally-- is it just a job? Do you think you'll feel proud of it? Do you want to serve simply because, or is it for purely monetary reasons? Etc.

If you need to ask, then it's civilian.

The military is a vocation, not just a job. It is for all the good soldiers I know, all the professionals.

People that were always wanting to get home, always on the phone, always writing to their girlfriends and looking towards their next leave or R & R, they were never good soldiers, because they always had their minds on other gak.

I loved being a RM because Its all I wanted to do, I volunteered for every tour of duty that came up and I threw myself into it with gusto. My old boss used to call me an "Ops pervert" because I wanted to deploy as often as possible and volunteered to switch units to get back into the sandbox, be it Iraq, Ganners, of the eternally amusing African details.

Soon as I started thinking "Ok im getting pretty sick of going to Afghanistan" I put my chit in and got out after ten years in. Best thing I ever did was join, and the second best thing I ever did was leave.

You know early on if you want to do it, and if you need to think about it, well, you have thought about it, and you should be a civilian.

If you don't 100% want to do it for yourself, then chances are, you wont enjoy it.

And enjoying your work is the most important thing in the world, for your own peace of mind, and because if you enjoy it, you will do an exceptional job.

If your joining for the money, or the benefits or because your doing it FOR something else or as a means to an end, and not just because you really want to do it then it will be a slog, and who wants to slog anywhere?

My two cents.

Yeah, that's one point...I think I'd feel better about myself than working for a corporation. At the end of my life, I'd like to say something more...beneficial for people than "Yeah, during my 30 years at X corporation, I increased their revenue by 12% by building the Xotron 2000!" That's what I'd like about that Minentaucher job...clearing explosive devices sounds like it might actually save some lives. There is still ordnance from WWII in the Eastern Sea, which is just an hour's drive from my hometown...

@mattyrm: Thanks for your post. Thing is, I HAVE always thought about joining the military...but here in Germany, the military is rather a frowned-upon institution than a celebrated one - as it is the case in the US, for example. So because everyone around seemed to want to rid me of that idea, it was gone for a long time...but now that I'm really out of school, that thought came back quite heavily. And, no, I definitely wouldn't do the job for the money, I'd do it because it sounds much more interesting and rewarding than sitting in a cubicle from 9 to 5.

mattyrm wrote: If you need to ask, then it's civilian.

Nah. I think everyone, even those who think they'd be really into it, should ask themselves questions like this. You really should for any job, but for the military it's more important.

Yeah, a friend of mine took a civilian way first and then, later, decided to go for the military. Haven't heard of him for a while, but he seemed always happy about that late decision. I think he's in helicopter training right now.

private sector will always pay more than a government job


there is pretty much a guarantee that you won't be shipped off to some desert any time soon as well

I don't know much about the German Military, but it has a special vacation you'd want to learn, then go ahead. Other skills and training can only help.

Witzkatz wrote:

@mattyrm: Thanks for your post. Thing is, I HAVE always thought about joining the military...but here in Germany, the military is rather a frowned-upon institution than a celebrated one - as it is the case in the US, for example. So because everyone around seemed to want to rid me of that idea, it was gone for a long time...but now that I'm really out of school, that thought came back quite heavily. And, no, I definitely wouldn't do the job for the money, I'd do it because it sounds much more interesting and rewarding than sitting in a cubicle from 9 to 5.

Oh see, if you have always thought about it..

Screw it, go in then!

If you don't like it, you can leave anyway, its not like the old days where you had to sign on for 20 years. Minimum term will be pretty short, and you might wind up fething loving it.

Either way, you will get something out of it!

That's the thing, if I'd go for officer stuff, I think the minimum time won't be under 5 years from what I can see. I scheduled an appointment with my local recruiter here in Lübeck in 4 weeks, that was the earliest possible time...maybe he can clear some things up.

The Minentaucher company requires you to take at least 8 years from what I could gather. That would be quite a chunk of time! But then, again, it might be the dreamjob...


Well, my ex-girlfriend thinks I'm crazy to even consider this...my brother thinks I'd be a better engineer, since he considers me not top-notch material for the military because I'm only 171cm (5'7'') tall, my mother was half-half supportive for small amounts of service, 3 years or so, but freaked out when she realized I could actually be deployed somewhere...a friend of the family who was a civilian seafarer told me he'd really have to hate me to suggest I'd join the Navy, he thinks it's a really bad idea but hasn't explained reasons yet...

...so yeah, at the moment I'd be pretty alone with that decision. In the end I'm aware that I should and will make my own decisions, but the non-existent support doesn't make things easier if you know what I mean.

Witzkatz wrote:That's the thing, if I'd go for officer stuff, I think the minimum time won't be under 5 years from what I can see. I scheduled an appointment with my local recruiter here in Lübeck in 4 weeks, that was the earliest possible time...maybe he can clear some things up.

Hey I know that place really well!

Nice Marzipan!

Hey, glad to here it's also known over in the UK! Yeah, it's definitely the tastiest marzipan I've ever eaten...though it's friggin' expensive, even here where it is made. You pay for quality, I guess...

Mattyrm, I'd really like to hear some first-hand stories about how military life went for you - training, deployments and the time in between. Would you care to tell something about that? PM would also be fine if the thread's too public or something...

Witzkatz wrote:Hey, glad to here it's also known over in the UK! Yeah, it's definitely the tastiest marzipan I've ever eaten...though it's friggin' expensive, even here where it is made. You pay for quality, I guess...

Mattyrm, I'd really like to hear some first-hand stories about how military life went for you - training, deployments and the time in between. Would you care to tell something about that? PM would also be fine if the thread's too public or something...

I personally would also be interested to hear of Matty's deployment. Especially with regards to Iraq (examining it as a potential PHD research subject).

He should start his own thread with the epic saga of Matty.

If you're in it for the military life, you probably aren't going to get what you want out of it if you apply for a job-oriented position. If you want to join the military, a combat MOS (position) is the only thing worth doing. No point joining the military to do a desk job. Just my opinion as former combat infantry.

I know the military isn't for me, but my brother signed on with the RM and really enjoyed it once he got to go out on Ops a bit. He wasn't as chuffed sitting around in Scotland, but when he got to "do his job" as he put it, he was always pretty happy. I think he only got out because he was feeling like doing some of the "normal" civvie stuff, he's back working (in the private sector) in a similar line of work now, and seems to be enjoying it too.
I dunno, takes all sorts. I'm glad there's people willing to be soldiers around who are pretty much default on my side. In school (where I work) I get the impression that the military is frowned upon- my German girlfriend also has a very negative view. I'm a lot more open minded- I think it would do some of the lads the world of good to sign up. Might make something more than an unemployed wretch out of them.

Aye, I wouldn't be too fond of a pureyl administrative position, some kind of desk job, either. I'm even thinking a little bit about enlisting for an NCO rank rather than officer, which would probably increase the amount of actual soldiering stuff I'd do...I think the enlisting time would probably be lower also, just in case I'd like to do something different earlier than I thought. I hope that's another question my recruiter will tell me more about.

What's your general impression, soldiers here on the board...is captain/captain-lieutenant/lieutenant-commander already a rather administrative, detached job or are those guys still part of the soldiery side?

Witzkatz wrote:Hey, glad to here it's also known over in the UK! Yeah, it's definitely the tastiest marzipan I've ever eaten...though it's friggin' expensive, even here where it is made. You pay for quality, I guess...

Mattyrm, I'd really like to hear some first-hand stories about how military life went for you - training, deployments and the time in between. Would you care to tell something about that? PM would also be fine if the thread's too public or something...

I can spin you lads some dits one of these days (ive got a raid on at 1915hrs!) but they are better suited to the pu due to the epic length of subjects Id like to talk about!

Regards officer jobs Witz, the three lowest (2nd lt, lt, captain) all get plenty of time on the ground, but above that, your looking at gak loads of admin and not much scrapping.

mattyrm wrote:

Regards officer jobs Witz, the three lowest (2nd lt, lt, captain) all get plenty of time on the ground, but above that, your looking at gak loads of admin and not much scrapping.

Ah allright, that's good to know, with captain being the position I'd start service with after training. It feels a bit strange, though...isn't a captain responsible for about 100 men? Even with thorough officer training, that seems like quite a bit for a "newbie" fresh from training. Did you have bad experiences with fresh officers during your time with the RM?

You would start as a Captain right out of OCS*? I've never heard of a a bump that high right off.

*Or whatever your equivalent is.

Well, that's what my info folder keeps telling me. Usually, people who want to become an officer in the Bundeswehr haven't studied yet - so they enlist for 12 years, go through boot camp, study their field, get a degree, start officer training and then start off as lieutenant. However, the info booklet says that people who already have a degree before enlisting/joining the army start higher, as Hauptmann=captain, right out of training. Hell, there's even a paragraph saying if you have a doctor in something you can start even higher, at major. Which is a bit crazy in my opinion.

As a small update I found out that a friend of mine was with the Gebirgsjäger of the Bundeswehr for a while, the mountain special forces - but she quit after 6 months because, as she put it, she "wasn't herself anymore" and "had to function like a machine, not a person" to follow orders. In the end, she was happy that she quit.

I'm aware that military command structure is not the epitome of personal evolvement by necessity, but her story seemed a bit like it was on the brink of inhuman or something.

Anyone willing to support/rectify/dismiss that notion from personal experience? I know militaries and even companies can be very different depending on who's the commander, but I don't think western militaries will be too different in that respect.

Another point to consider, people who enter into military service already ranked as an officer, are generally less respected by the soldiery. Because it is seen as not really having earned it, it can be a tough road, an uphill battle to gain the respect of the troops.

Where as an officer who earned their way up through service is generally well respected by the troops, and fellow officers alike.

Do you think you can handle making the decision that kills one the people under your command?

Yeah, that's why I asked if anyone had problems or bad stories about officers fresh from training.

The thing is - as far as I gathered, this IS the usual way to become an officer, by academy training. Sure, NCOs can also get promoted to officer, but I'm not sure that happens that often and surely not without many, many years of service up front. Here in Germany, becoming an officer is usually linked to studying something at a university - this probably wouldn't be the case for NCOs being promoted, but that might also be a reason why it probably doesn't happen that much.

Again, I've no actual experience on this, so I may be wrong.

About making decisions that kill soldiers under my command...well, that is part of being an officer, I guess. However, avoiding decisions that pose an elevated risk of one of your men dying in favor of lower-risk but still effective decisions is surely the hallmark of a good officer, which I would aspire to be.

Witzkatz wrote:Yeah, that's why I asked if anyone had problems or bad stories about officers fresh from training.

My only advice, if you do end up becoming an officer, is to keep your head low... I don't mean just in cover in a war zone. What I mean is that, when you are fresh out of training, you need to realize that you dont know gak. Don't be arrogant, and learn from the people who have been around for a little while. At least in the US military system, the first position for a Lieutenant is usually as a platoon leader. The person who is supposed to teach him the most, and keep things going smoothly, advise and assist him, is the platoon sergeant; Learn from those early experiences.

I've been in the US Army for over 7 years now, and by far the worst people I have met as far as ignorance combined with arrogance are West Point grads. If you keep in mind that things in the "real" military are going to be quite a bit different than what was done in training, be flexible and weigh the advice of those around you, you should do well.

Yes, I thought it would be something like that. And I can assure you that I'm neither the arrogant not the ignorant type, at least I managed to do that so far, I hope. Did those West Point grads learn in the end, or were there officers who just kept being know-it-alls? How long did it take them to learn, approximately?

Witzkatz wrote:Yes, I thought it would be something like that. And I can assure you that I'm neither the arrogant not the ignorant type, at least I managed to do that so far, I hope. Did those West Point grads learn in the end, or were there officers who just kept being know-it-alls? How long did it take them to learn, approximately?

There are some who never lose the arrogance (see Gen. Patton), and some take longer than others to learn, however most of them have "settled down" and realized that they dont know everything, and things are done differently for real than in training, round about the time they got their first promotion (to 1st Lieutenant) or when they reach Captain. Each person is different of course, so I have learned to just take officers as they are and respect (or not) the attributes and leadership skills/style that they present to us.

Witzkatz wrote:As a small update I found out that a friend of mine was with the Gebirgsjäger of the Bundeswehr for a while, the mountain special forces - but she quit after 6 months because, as she put it, she "wasn't herself anymore" and "had to function like a machine, not a person" to follow orders. In the end, she was happy that she quit.

I doubt that. If she was in 6 months, then she wasnt in.

The amount of people who I have met who say "oh I was in the Navy Seals/SF/commando but I left after X months because it wasn't for me" weren't "in" anything, because if you actually 100% compelte the training, your looking at a minimum of a couple of years in. Clearly she dropped out of selection, and selection aint "in" anything!

Basically, people that fail say this type of gak, people that make the grade don't. I never once met a guy who had been in a unit for say, 18 months who suddenly went "Oh I dont feel like a person anymore so I have to leave"

I think it is a natural human response to feel ashamed if you quit something, so you make excuses, even though nobody would take the piss anyway. About 90% of people that try out for the RM fail, and they say all the same stuff, "I wasn't myself" "It was stupid" "they tried to change me into something I am not" "The RM aren't any good anyway" "My mom got sick" etc

Hardly any people have the guts to simply say "I gave it my best shot, but I didn't make the grade" most people would rather hide from a hard truth than face it, and that in itself is an admirable trait. There is no shame in daring greatly and failing anyway, but most people don't seem to understand that. I have far more respect and admiration for an honest failure who gave it a shot, than someone who says "Oh yeah I was in the SEALS for 7 months but then I decided that they suck anyway/I have a inverted vertebre in my toe/my Dads bipolar/they made me into a robot"

Your a human, not a cyborg, and the military dont expect any of that gak from you.

If you follow the instructions you get given, and you do your job well, the training team will fething love you. The idea that you cant be yourself is ridiculous. My friend just passed out of RM training 2 years ago, and he is the same bloke he always was, he still plays his guitar, I still paint my minis, he wears jeans, I wear baggy shorts, if you are great at every task the training team give you, then you can wear womens fething underwear as far as they are concerned!

Be fit, be mentally robust, be where you are supposed to be, on time and with all your gear and you can spend your weekends fething ballet dancing.

mattyrm: It could be that she just didn't like taking orders and didn't like how she felt like nothing more than a mere cog in the machine, rather than she washed out.

That's a big part right there of why, though I've considered going to the military, I haven't actually gone. I don't think it'd mesh well with my personality... I don't like taking orders. I have no disrespect for those who do it and make it mind. But I don't think it'd be for me.

Melissia wrote:mattyrm: It could be that she just didn't like taking orders and didn't like how she felt like nothing more than a mere cog in the machine, rather than she washed out.

That's a big part right there of why, though I've considered going to the military, I haven't actually gone. I don't think it'd mesh well with my personality... I don't like taking orders. I have no disrespect for those who do it and make it mind. But I don't think it'd be for me.

Melissa, everyone is different, most people arent made for the military and thats a good thing, gak, the world would be screwed if it was full of cantankerous chaps like me.

Thats the point, you know deep down if your going to be suitable, you know exactly whats going to happen when you sign on the dotted line. Nobody expects to turn up on their first day and spend the morning sipping tea and talking about their feelings whilst pertched on a bean bag.

Which leads me to my next point...

Elite Special Forces Mountain Unit and she finished all of the training, and THEN left after finishing all the hard bits, after 6 months?

Trust me Melissa, she washed out.

Yeah, have to agree with Mattyrm. In the US military system at least, IF you pass selection AND get selected, there is no "I didn't like it, so I left" option. Firstly, they select people not based on their scores (though this does play a small part), but rather based on personality and whether the team thinks they can work with you in RL situations. They are quite adept at selecting people who will not quit no matter what.


As mattyrm also said, washing out of a selection course is hardly a bad thing, and does not reflect poorly on the person who went... For every single soldier who TRIES to go through SFSC, and SFQC, there are at least five who never try in the first place.