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Anyone have any tips and tactics for a high elf player that is going up against 2 cannons , jessails gutter runners a doom wheel and most likely some plague monks with that stupid banner, storm vermin and some clan ? rats

The battle will be 2500 pts he enjoys shooting the crap out of people with weapon teams as well . He hates my magic so he will have some dispel scrolls I'm sure . It's not hard boys either . Just a relaxed pitched battle setting and to destroy your opponent . Just. Seems a lot of people don't have much experience with skaven .

In my experience, if you're going for victory points, ignore his big blocks, focus on taking out everything else and then hit his blocks. Big blocks of clan rats aren't scary, they're just usually tar-pits thanks to being 5 or 6 ranks deep.

Magic should help you, if you take the right lores and balance the risks well. Life is always nasty if you run a life-star of sword-masters or white-lions. Against skaven, i'd go with sword-masters, but that's just me. You might also have good luck with Shadow or High magic. (Okkam's Mindrazer, Flames of the Pheonix)

You're going to have to out-maneuver him to some extent. If you get a flank charge off on a long unit and force him to reform to the side, he'll lose the rank bonuses to both combat res And his leadership, and potentially lose stead-fast.

As for counter-magic, i'd consider taking Both hard-dispels available to you (Dispel Scroll, Sigil of Asuryan), if you're not going to run a Teclis list. If he's got plague monks, that means a likely Plague Priest on top of a Grey Seer, which means tons of Plague spells which tend to munch t3 elves.

I hope those few thoughts help some. I've not played terribly many games against skaven, but those few things have come up in most of the games i've had thus far.

As a skaven player, there are a few things I watch out for against high elves. From your perspective however:

1. Weapon teams. They have 1 wound, so they'll die to archers/sea guard shooting. Sure, they're nasty if they hit, but they aren't very resilient.

2. Artillery in the back. Great Eagles are one of your better bets for getting there quickly, but keep in mind they may die to early shooting. Against a Doomwheel, make sure you get the charge on it. Without its shooting and impact hits, it's not actually all that deadly in close combat.

3. He can only have one dispel scroll, don't forget.

4. Which lore of magic do you usually run? Life can help to make up for your losses, while Dwellers will still ruin a skaven player's day.

5. Jezzails are not actually all that amazing, especially with their BS of 3. Leave them for (almost) last if possible.

6. Never challenge in CC. Skaven characters, especially casters, tend to be squishy. You're usually better off just directing attacks at characters instead of challenging.



So, with all that said. Kill order:

1. Weapon Teams - While not the deadliest, they'll go down quickly and are worth a good amount of points. 1 Warpfire Thrower, for instance, is worth more than 10 plague monks combined.

2. Warp Lighting cannon - the opposite of the Teams. Harder to kill, and not worth all that much. On the other hand, they will usually be his biggest damage dealers.

3. Gutter Runners - They'll harass your flanks and any small groups you have sitting out. They're not super dangerous to you, but like many skaven units they're very squishy and give easy VP.

4. Jezzails - Not deadly, but again, high VP per model when wiped out.

5. Stormvermin/Plague Monks - These guys will take some grinding to destroy, which is why they're so far down the list. Individually they're not worth a ton, but the block is worth more than an equal sized block of Clan Rats. If you have a block whittled down early on then by all means wipe them out, but they'll take more work to wipe out than other skaven units.

6. Clan Rats are the bottom of the barrel. Pretty much ignorable but for any characters bunkered inside.

What's your list look like?

Giant Eagles, Ellryian Reavers, and other fast-but-cheap stuff. Don't give him a big expensive target for his Warp-lightning cannon like a dragon. Use your mobility to avoid the big blocks and go for the soft, squishy points. Then play avoidance once you've gained your VP.

A big unit of Phoenix Guard with the Banner of the World Dragon can tarpit his stuff better than anything he has. Use it to tie down his line to help your maneuver elements get through.

Awesome thanks for the tips Ill post a list asap


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Archmage lvl 4
Loremaster cloak
Sigil of asuryan

Noble
Bsb
Banner of the world dragon

Lothern sea guard x21

Lothern sea guard x21

swordmasters x 20
Banner of sorcery

White lions x 20

Dragon princes x 6

Dragon princes x 6

Eagle
Eagle
Eagle
Eagle

Ellyrian reavers x 6

2500 pts



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I'm thinking of going high magic however I hate his pesky doom wheel . What's the best way to kill it? Eagles? Magic?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or this list

Mage lvl 2
Sigil of asuryan

Noble
Bsb
Armor of caledor
Razor banner

Lothern sea guard x 60
Banner of arcane protection ( magic resist 2)

Swordmasters x 25
Banner of balance

Swordmasters x 25

Reavers x 6

Reavers x 6

Shadow warriors x 6

Eagle
Eagle
Eagle

Second list is a no-go. You can't take a magic banner and magic armor at the same time on your BSB. He either gets magic items or a magic banner, but not both.

I'd be worried about taking really big units with plague out and about, but maybe you can focus on just shutting it down.

Not sure what your answer to the doom wheel should be. Eagles won't last long- the warp lightning will keep zapping even in combat, which will smoke any eagle a turn after it charges. Add the grind and you might not even last one combat phase, even if you charge.

Crap alright discard the armor lol forgot that rule in my listmaking frenzy Haha. God I hate that doom wheel it screws up my game so much I can't stand It lol beast lore with the spear spell? Bolt throwers ? Alith anar? Bah

Book of hoeth on level 4 mage if not taking teclis.

Cheaper, lamer version of teclis.

Put the LSG into a huge tarpit unit, I've been running 50 extremely successfully at 2500 points. They have never been wiped out.

I have seen small units of 5 sword masters do well.
You can take more special and rare choices then most so why not.

The 5 man units are quick and agile and its still 10 str 5 or so ws better than any non hero skaven and re rolling to hit almost always.

Streamdragon pretty much laid out the plan.

If you can get breath weapons use them any sort of template will serve you well.


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Also lore of shadow will combat his silly skaven magic effectively.

Hmm 5 man groups of sm could be interesting , yea I love big units of seaguard I was pulling them out in 7 th lol havent had much experience with shadow ill look at it.

I think your going to have a rocky road with the way your are thinking about tackling skaven.

Skaven are extremely tough against high elves and I dont see willingly going within 24" as a good tactic. Play the range, shoot at them with longbows and hope that plague dosent ravage your army. To help in that, go high magic and play annulian crystal. Ok, with high magic you have to go within 24" of something, but the lore is awesome giving multiple low-cast tools against skaven.

Alright so after some thought I'm thinking I want to do this list , I love the idea of the Mage knights I've read about and have decided to make a Cavalry mage knight with prince althran , let me know what you think.

Anyway the only silly fluff is my blade lord calehir who's made a name for himself as a prince and always gets an honorable captain spot when not leading my armies, lol.





Prince Althran  the Black -304
Gw, lance ,shield , dragon armor, barded mount.
Gem of hoeth, ring of corin, temakadors gauntlets, iron curse
Death lore 

Dethadrin "The White Flame" - lvl 4 Archmage 315 
Silver wand , forliath robe 
High magic 

Sicandric of the Noble house Finlirion - 168
Hw, shield , dragon armor,  
Bsb, banner of the world dragon -60


60 lothern seaguard "Storm company
Lion banner 25 pts

15 archers "Darksky regiment" mc -165

Blade lord Calehir The Swift 
10 sword masters "The White Guard"-full cmd, -243
  Banner of sorcery 50

2 eagles 

9 Dragon Princes "Caledors Thunder" ,sb -290 
Banner of eternal flame 10

2500 


So the plan is to deploy the sea guard on a 30 wide front 2 deep. While using one of the board edges to cover one flank . This should extremely limit his cannon devastation in the first two turns , the archers will deploy on the opposite flank of the sea guard 7 wide with the sword masters a few inches behind again to provide long and not deep targets for the pesky cannons . In reality he knows I want to kill the cannons with my eagles and he makes sure that doesn't happen with engineers and what not, aka a decent amount of mid range shooting. . So the eagles will play placement advantage and cover the far side of the board to make sure no gutter runners pop in back . Now to keep the battalion as a unit the dragon princes will be lined in the back most likely very thinly as well since I want to force him to come to me . By tons of shooting, the sea guard are immune to his magic from the banner and won't be dying so much from the cannons . So I'm thinking to put all the characters in the sea guard at the beginning , however althran has death magic and I would greatly like to kill some heros before combat so when he joins the dragon princes to either counter an aggressive attack or support the sea guard in combat Orr make a sorti and try to assassinate will be something I have to decide in game, the ring of corin is a sneak surprise as I'm sure he will use his dispel scrol on either Vauls unmaking or flames of the Phoenix from the arch Mage so hopefully that will be something to pull out when we have low winds if magic . Which ever, nothing better then destroying the items that make his units combat worthy haha such as his storm vermin blocks . Tips?

I fought a 2000 point battle with a friend of mine, who happens to love the foul skaven. (He looks kinda like one, I have my suspicions.)
My army consisted entirely of Lothern style army.

I played using 2x25 blocks of sea guard, 2x lothern skycutters with bolt throwers, 10 sea rangers (shadow warriors/ storm of chaos book), 4 bolt throwers, flamespyre phoenix.

I shot him to death first round, destroying 4 of 5 jezzzails with rangers (BS 5). 4 bolt throwers pummeled the abomination, sea guard and skycutters peppered the horde unit of stormvermin with his lord.

My advice, place as much shooting units as possible. Some people may disagree, for me it worked against his units. By turn two, half of his army was destroyed before we engaged melee combat.

Just take a big block of white lions with the banner of the world dragon. Oh look. All your shooting that can really hurt me is warpstone? Oh, it counts as magical? Oh dear. I guess I'l just take my 2+ wards.

It is all tactical. 2+ wards take a sheer amount of skill to make.


In all seriousness. The way to beat Skaven, is like any other army.

Threat assessment.

Going by the list you described, we'll use the following:

Big threat? Doomwheel. Answer? White lions with banner of the world dragon.

Next biggest threat? Cannons. Answer? Eagles and shadow warriors.

Next? Plague Monks. Answer? Well, there are multiple ways. If you want to make him cry, then go death magic, an eagle and a tonne of archers. This way, you doom and darkness the unit, place an eagle at max charge distance, they charge, they fail, then you shoot the living daylights out of the unit.

The next way, is to run a big block of silver helms or dragon princes. They won't do much to you because of your armour save, and you will kill a lot with your S5 charge.

Or, swordsmasters. They love fighting skaven. Their WS6 means a single miasma makes their entire army hit you on 5s.

Next? Grey Seer. Answer? Death magic. A S3 T3 caster hates death snipes. Especially as he's LD 8. Taking out the seer takes a lot of pressure off of you at range.

Next? Weapons teams. Answer? Archers. As pointed out, with 1 wound apiece, a unit of 10 archers will reliably kill one a turn.

Then it comes down to playing well and mopping up.

If you analyse the threats like that before each game, and have a balanced list, you'll notice that each game becomes easier.

As for what to run, A level 4 death, and a level 1 shadow. Drop their initiative and purple sun them, gain a tonne of dice and snipe the characters off. Then add ranged core, a big block of white lions with the banner, a pair of eagles., some shadow warriors and stuff to taste.

The one best thing against Skavens is the Dragon Princes with BotWD, the only thing that can hurt them reliably is a HPA without Spikes. Otherwise the Skaven player has to feed them Slaves for the whole game (which is not too costly due to their average killing power once the charge is expanded)
Maybe Rat Ogres in the flank if they're already engaged against a big block, but the Rat Ogres will likely have been killed by shooting

Otherwise, it might seem silly but Spearmen is probably the best choice against a lot of Skavens builds
Cheap and very good at killing hordes (due to constant re-rolls to hit)

Death Magic to kill the Seer won't work against any decent Skaven player though, all Seers always buy with a 4+ Ward and with a MR (2 or 3) within the unit (or from the bell).
If he doesn't go this way, he deserves to die, the General (and to a lesser extent the BSB) are the cornerstone of most armies, Skavens just can't afford to lose the Ld bubble

Most of your advice is sound DarkAvenger, but relies (like most Elves player) on unbridled optimism.
In your description, you manage to cast all your spells without ever failing a cast nor anything being dispelled!
The Plague monks will probably not charge the eagle with a Ld 7 with re-roll (and you need a lot of room to be "at max range at 17 inches") even after D&D
Most Skavens don't care about White Lions, just feed them Slaves (they're bad at killing them for their price) and keep the HPA away (easy with random movement) until you manage to turn them into Rats (or a charge side with a HPA will murder them with ease over a few turns)

Really, what would frighten me is an army with a large Dragon Princes unit with BotWD, several unit of 28 (7*4) of Spearmen and archers/Ballistas support and with a lvl 4 somewhere obviously, High Magic being the Lore that annoys me the most (Unforging, Flaming death that I have to dispell, Walk between Worlds, Ward Save)

 thedarkavenger wrote:

As for what to run, A level 4 death, and a level 1 shadow. Drop their initiative and purple sun them, gain a tonne of dice and snipe the characters off. Then add ranged core, a big block of white lions with the banner, a pair of eagles., some shadow warriors and stuff to taste.

I'd take another Lvl 1 Shadow Mage on top of that. One casts Miasma at something you'll double team with Purple Sun, and the other casts Miasma on something in combat that you want to make hit you on 5s. Miasma would also work well on Jezzials and the like. They won't be killing much at BS1.

 The Shadow wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

As for what to run, A level 4 death, and a level 1 shadow. Drop their initiative and purple sun them, gain a tonne of dice and snipe the characters off. Then add ranged core, a big block of white lions with the banner, a pair of eagles., some shadow warriors and stuff to taste.

I'd take another Lvl 1 Shadow Mage on top of that. One casts Miasma at something you'll double team with Purple Sun, and the other casts Miasma on something in combat that you want to make hit you on 5s. Miasma would also work well on Jezzials and the like. They won't be killing much at BS1.

The second level 1 is good, but after the first intiative trick, it comes into a whole new aspect. Your opponent dispels the first, you do it again, he does it again, and depending on how many dice they have left, you switch straight to the snipes.

All silly tricks and gimmicks aside, Skaven need to engage you with two units to fair well; one unit to absorb your offense, and the other to kill you. This second unit is invariably smaller.

If you can take out those smaller, more lethal units, you're good to go. So, you need units with good reach; shooting, magic, or a high Movement.
Of course, then he'll try to take out those units before they take out his. And so begins the game, I guess.

Some specifics:

-you can try lots of shooting, but beware the Stormbanner.

- why is the Doomwheel so troubling? 7 wounds when it charges, then 5 on his turn after that, and 3 on your turns? What's he doing with it?

- Jezzails are not that good. Especially against Elves. S6 AP = vast amounts of overkill against most of your units. Add in that he's paying 20pts/model for 0.28-0.42 wounds/turn...

- the Banner of the World Dragon has to be, hands-down, the dumbest item, possible the dumbest thing--out of all spells, models, and rules--in the game. A maxed-out unit of Swordmasters, with some wizards and a BSB and other such nonsense crammed in there will always do well.

- and for the record, a Grey Seer is T4 and Ld7.

Dwellers magic spell always wrecked my blocks of clanrats. 100 rat blocks and i would lose around 20-30 a turn

Phoenix Guard as a character bunker, and another fighting block with the banner of the world dragon.

A few bolt throwers (4) will take out weapon teams, doom wheels or monsters. A few of the sisters will put a flaming on on that pesky abom.

Keep track on his generals bubble and try and force panic checks on his units outside of the leadership range.

-Matt

larose14 wrote:
Awesome thanks for the tips Ill post a list asap


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Archmage lvl 4
Loremaster cloak
Sigil of asuryan

Noble
Bsb
Banner of the world dragon

Lothern sea guard x21

Lothern sea guard x21

swordmasters x 20
Banner of sorcery

White lions x 20

Dragon princes x 6

Dragon princes x 6

Eagle
Eagle
Eagle
Eagle

Ellyrian reavers x 6

2500 pts



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm thinking of going high magic however I hate his pesky doom wheel . What's the best way to kill it? Eagles? Magic?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or this list

Mage lvl 2
Sigil of asuryan

Noble
Bsb
Armor of caledor
Razor banner

Lothern sea guard x 60
Banner of arcane protection ( magic resist 2)

Swordmasters x 25
Banner of balance

Swordmasters x 25

Reavers x 6

Reavers x 6

Shadow warriors x 6

Eagle
Eagle
Eagle

I think you really need to take a Phoenix--its ability to fly over large blocks and get extra hits PER RANK could be huge if he goes for the "long blocks" tactic. That, and you need to choose a Lore of magic that allows you to "hit all models" in units--Dwellers from Below in Lore of Life is extremely good in this regard. The extra toughness you could give your units would also give them a huge advantage against (weak) Skaven troops.

There is a line of reasoning in this thread that worries me to no end.

Eagles, Pheonixes, and non magical shooting are all going to be serverely gimped early on due to the Storm Banner. Unless you guys all have the immense good fortune of playing against Skaven Players who DON'T use the Storm Banner??

Storm Banner basically means no flying and -1 to all non magical ranged weapons until it patters out. realistically what it means is that all your archers will be largely useless for the first 1 or 2 turns of a battle, and your fliers will be delayed at least 1 turn in charging warmachines. Since skaven shooting is mostly magical, this gives them an extra turn to paste your eagles and other fliers with WLC or Gutter Runners before they can hit warmachines. If hes rolling well for the storm he can effectively take your shooting and fliers out of the game. Lets not forget that there is a Spell in the Skaven Lore that does the same thing. Going against Skaven with an overrelience on non magical shooting and fliers to assasinate warmachines usually ends poorly.

Banner of the World Dragon is great against Skaven though! Just watch out for that dreaded 13th. Killing 4d6 expensive models without any saves is not fun, and the BotWD provides no protection against it.

Keep in mind the OP of this thread is 2 years old, and before the new High Elf book was released.

Was very confused to see my post in this thread already!

Wow! Didn't even notice that. Threadomancy to the max!

@conker249: you were lucky, by the way. You should have been losing 50 a turn.

@akaean: the Stormbanner is a -2 to all BS shooting, and a 4+ for non-BS shooting to function. Even better!
Seriously, it's a dumb item. The best in the book, right behind the Doomrocket.