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Well that's probably the most gross thing they have released so far in the campaign. Very unsettling

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
That thing's back end face is a droll meme waiting to happen.

So, someone brought up Chinese recasters, which surprised me at first. I've never even considered that there might be a market for such a thing, what with the game's high entry cost keeping out the buy-to-win types and with collectors tending to prize original productions. But then I read the rumor that the King model, the mini that many backers pledged $45 plus shipping to get and patiently waited years for, might only become available as part of the Gambler's Chest...and suddenly the Chinese recasters quip made sense.

There actually seemed to be more of them floating about than the Horus Heresy forgeworld armours at one point, which tells you something!

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
That thing's back end face is a droll meme waiting to happen.


So, someone brought up Chinese recasters, which surprised me at first. I've never even considered that there might be a market for such a thing, what with the game's high entry cost keeping out the buy-to-win types and with collectors tending to prize original productions. But then I read the rumor that the King model, the mini that many backers pledged $45 plus shipping to get and patiently waited years for, might only become available as part of the Gambler's Chest...and suddenly the Chinese recasters quip made sense.

Recasters should never make sense, boardgames and wargames are not life essentials there is no moral justification for using them, they are leeches living from other peoples hard work.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
That thing's back end face is a droll meme waiting to happen.


So, someone brought up Chinese recasters, which surprised me at first. I've never even considered that there might be a market for such a thing, what with the game's high entry cost keeping out the buy-to-win types and with collectors tending to prize original productions. But then I read the rumor that the King model, the mini that many backers pledged $45 plus shipping to get and patiently waited years for, might only become available as part of the Gambler's Chest...and suddenly the Chinese recasters quip made sense.

Recasters should never make sense, boardgames and wargames are not life essentials there is no moral justification for using them, they are leeches living from other peoples hard work.

While certainly true, if someone is not able/willing to match the demand for ones products and/or is pricing it way out of anything reasonable, there will be knock-offs/counterfeits.
And let's be honest here, who has never watched a movie on a streaming site, downloaded books or comics, watched porn for free, picked up counterfeit clothes or watches on vacation, taped a movie from tv or a song from radio?
Same goes for recasts imo. Look at GW and what they are doing to prevent recasts, because they are doing a lot of things right the last year. Start Collecting! boxes are in a sweet spot where there is no longer a reason to buy them as recasts. Bringing back OOP miniatures in metal with a quality most recasters can't match.
Doing it wrong? GW limited release miniatures, even worse, limited to a certain country at a single store opening. Am I getting this model from Ebay for 40+ € or from a recaster for 5 €? Same goes for Kingdom Death. The Pin-Ups were only available on KS (correct me if wrong), but are so popular, that recasters see business in it and they appear regularly on a popular marketplace. The actual expansions? Not so much, because they can be bought directly and, more importantly, include the needed rules for playing.

SnotlingPimpWagon wrote:
Why aren't expansions straight 50% off anymore?

Money?

My main concern about this KS is Poot's ability to run a business vs. his apparent poor impulse control. With KS1, he lost money, but his business (the pinups?) made enough for him to not go out of business. If he loses money on KS2, I dunno if he's gonna be able to see enough pinups! Him not meeting expectations, such as the 1/2 off expansions and crossovers not being promos (so they wouldn't be free in some pledges) may be him readjusting the balance sheets unsubtlely.

If miniatures have artificial value added to them (500 ever made, sold out in 1 hour, not being cast anymore), I don't see them as rightfully insured against being recasted, so to say.
If copycats recast something, that is available without their "help", that's bad, if models are made in strictly low numbers for a big price and sell out in a blink of an eye, like kingdom death, IMHO the recasts are justified. It's like video games abandonware- if there is no other way of getting the game, other then pirating it, it's the producers fault.
KD regular policy is very anti consumer- ITS LIMITED, get it quick NOW for insane prices or never will you have our minis i"on your shelf.

I really want to get into KD, but I'm only given a month to do so at a reasonable price(I don't have enough money even with these conditions- 100 bucks shipping takes it out of my reach) + most of the models in the kickstarter won't appear until next kickstarter or Black Friday . + Kickstarter got 7,5 million bucks, after the production cost is subtracted, I doubt Poots will be bankrupt..

I don't think recasts are *ever* justified, but, in the USA, we have a strong sense of IP, at least until someone makes their own version of a product, or it's a tangible product. Also, we're spoiled by the sheer variety of creative work here -- made, in part, due to IP laws that protect them. Nobody forces you to buy these overpriced toys, and the risk of recasters are sellers passing off their recast -- aka. counterfeit -- products as the real thing. Counterfeits are fine until someone sells you a defective product. (Which reminds me, anyone else looking forward to GameZone delivering HeroQuest in March?

I agree that the reality *is* that the market will buy the cheaper product of similar or acceptable quality, but that doesn't mean it's right (or wrong) to do it.

EDIT: Should mention that, with online piracy, the problem lies with using a new technology with an old distribution system (sorta like boardgames and the traditional retailer-distributor model, developed in the 1940's). Rather than the old model of directly paying for product, MU had premium subscribers, whose payments subsidized the free accounts. Musical artists did their own publicity, and were paid depending on how much of their content was downloaded. Also, of course, media streaming sites such as YouTube use the ol' advertising to subsidize YouTube's "free" service. And then there's the 1980's model of using cartoons and animation as 30-minute advertisements for toys and merchandising. In the case of anime, the shows are typically used to sell printed manga, even if not all the viewers buy it.

ced1106 wrote:

SnotlingPimpWagon wrote:
Why aren't expansions straight 50% off anymore?

Money?

My main concern about this KS is Poot's ability to run a business vs. his apparent poor impulse control. With KS1, he lost money, but his business (the pinups?) made enough for him to not go out of business. If he loses money on KS2, I dunno if he's gonna be able to see enough pinups! Him not meeting expectations, such as the 1/2 off expansions and crossovers not being promos (so they wouldn't be free in some pledges) may be him readjusting the balance sheets unsubtlely.

Given how much reserved he is in this kickstarter and how much he seems to care about his company balance it seems he took his lesson from the previous kickstarter, I do not think he readjusts the balance sheets I think these things were there from the start, if I have something bad to cast is communication, on hindsight the information is there from day one, but it is not conveyed correctly in a manner that is easily understandable.

SnotlingPimpWagon wrote:If miniatures have artificial value added to them (500 ever made, sold out in 1 hour, not being cast anymore), I don't see them as rightfully insured against being recasted, so to say.
If copycats recast something, that is available without their "help", that's bad, if models are made in strictly low numbers for a big price and sell out in a blink of an eye, like kingdom death, IMHO the recasts are justified. It's like video games abandonware- if there is no other way of getting the game, other then pirating it, it's the producers fault.
KD regular policy is very anti consumer- ITS LIMITED, get it quick NOW for insane prices or never will you have our minis i"on your shelf.

I really want to get into KD, but I'm only given a month to do so at a reasonable price(I don't have enough money even with these conditions- 100 bucks shipping takes it out of my reach) + most of the models in the kickstarter won't appear until next kickstarter or Black Friday . + Kickstarter got 7,5 million bucks, after the production cost is subtracted, I doubt Poots will be bankrupt..

It is still not an excuse and the comparison of the digital distribution has a few flaws, more importantly though in the abandonware comparison, abandonware are software that have been abandoned from the IP holder, either because the IP law expired or the IP holder does not exist anymore, or rarely because the IP holder has abandoned any claims to the IP. It has no comparison to KDM been limited release and to be fair there are many good reasons why they are a limited release, been artificially limited to pump up the price is the least possible reason for them.

It is still not an excuse and the comparison of the digital distribution has a few flaws, more importantly though in the abandonware comparison, abandonware are software that have been abandoned from the IP holder, either because the IP law expired or the IP holder does not exist anymore, or rarely because the IP holder has abandoned any claims to the IP. It has no comparison to KDM been limited release and to be fair there are many good reasons why they are a limited release, been artificially limited to pump up the price is the least possible reason for them.

Oh really? So when GW is pushing out a Tidewall rampant or Space hulk as a limited time offer for a big sum of money- that's bad and they want to grab our cash using the "limited, buy it now factor", but when Poots does it, such reasoning is the least possible? Even the word "boutique" on a home page of KD website adds artificial value to the brand, (like Apple is more expensive, because it's Apple). KD Has no good reason to be sold in the way it is, other than to profit its producer and make it more convenient for him. If models weren't limited, hence so hard to get, Kickstarter wouldn't explode and be overdosed with backers, making Poots life easier(he wouldn't have dro do "the math") and he still, I think, would earn a lot, but gradually, not in a fast swoop.

As to abandonware - there are also examples like EA, that cut the cord of their online games, and no one can enjoy then anymore (try playing darkspore) and that example is close to KD, IMHO. You didn't buy during the set amount of time? Well, better luck next time, you can wait for next. Kickstarter to get the expansion/monster you wanted! Make sure you press f5 and don't think about the price twice.


IP is important and small companies especially(!!!) shouldn't be scalped by copycats(how can the creator evolve and be able to do what we want for us and what he loves for themselves, if the money goes to the recaster??), but when they behave in such a way.. We want 500 x Price of the mini, and no more! I'd understand if some artist wouldn't want to be left out to enjoy one of the wonderful sculpts, that KD have, and want to paint them, but his only way to do so- is to buy a copy. I'll do a compliment out of the following example: it's as if only a limited amount of people would be allowed to visit some artist~s exhibition.

SnotlingPimpWagon: Your reasoning is fundamentally flawed. You seem to think that you have a moral *right* to own whatever you want. No. You have no right whatsoever. All the rights to a certain model lies with its creator and producer. If they want to make no more than 100 copies of a model, and you don't get one of those 100, your *only* right is to cry and lament that you didn't get one. You have *no* right to make a copy of it just because you want it. Again, you have *no* right whatsoever to own something just because you want it. That's the long and short of it. Doesn't matter if it costs $1 or $100 000, it's not yours to take.

 Mymearan wrote:
SnotlingPimpWagon: Your reasoning is fundamentally flawed. You seem to think that you have a *right* to own whatever you want. No. You have no right whatsoever. All the rights to a certain model lies with its creator and producer. If they want to make no more than 100 copies of a model, and you don't get one of those 100, your *only* right is to cry and lament that you didn't get one. You have *no* right to make a copy of it just because you want it. Again, you have *no* right whatsoever to own something just because you want it.

I was just getting ready to point out that an artist is under no obligation to make sure that everyone who wants their work gets it. Capitalism makes that an excellent idea for the artist (more offerings = more sales = more money) but what they are willing to produce is a limiting factor which also will increase the value. Much like autographs of people who don't typically sign things are more valuable, but someone is not entitled to someone's signature just because they met the person. While discussion of how mankind's ability to produce reliable copies of art (which is actually very recent in recorded history) would be interesting, it does seem it would be better routed to Dakka Discussions.

Getting more on topic, the hands question I believe is just a body-horror trope that Adam likes. One of the ideas behind the disfigured end of the body horror spectrum is that of recognizable shapes in unrecognizable formations after all. So it's designed to play with your natural instincts to see patterns, which we do regardless of whether they're there, and then tap into the wrongness that those hands are not where hands should be. I don't think there's been any explained reason for why Adam prefers that symbolism over others though.

I'm liking what I've seen from the campaign thus far, and imagine that January is going to see a hefty bill for this on my card.

You are seriously comparing a company with thousands of employees, its own manufacturing, retail chain and distribution channel that has millions of profit with a small company that has nothing of the above?

The difference is GW can produce more spacehulks without affecting its bottom line and can take the financial risk of not all of them been sold, Poots cannot do so and making a product that does not sell can be the end of his company, the limited runs he makes seems more or less to be the minimum order/ mould life of the product and encores mean the limited run managed to make enouph money to be profitable and fund a next run.

You have to draw lines on comparable things EA cutting online play support or MMO companies killing the game is quite different from a boardgame not getting reprint because it is expensive to manufacture, has low profit margin and is a high risk on not selling enouph.

Recasting is not acceptable for active lines, want a product be reprinted campaign for it and help the producer make it possible to reprint it.

 Mymearan wrote:
SnotlingPimpWagon: Your reasoning is fundamentally flawed. You seem to think that you have a moral *right* to own whatever you want. No. You have no right whatsoever. All the rights to a certain model lies with its creator and producer. If they want to make no more than 100 copies of a model, and you don't get one of those 100, your *only* right is to cry and lament that you didn't get one. You have *no* right to make a copy of it just because you want it. Again, you have *no* right whatsoever to own something just because you want it. That's the long and short of it. Doesn't matter if it costs $1 or $100 000, it's not yours to take.

This isn't about right or wrong. The demand for recasts is there, like it or not. SnotlingPimpWagon is stating a reason why it exists. And he's totally right. If you can't match the demand for a product, a part of possible customers will look elsewhere. Is it hurting the creator? Absolutely. Could the creator have prevented it? Absolutely. Like I said earlier, there is a way to fight recasts and it's not through prosecution, but through pulling the customer with good value, like GW's Start Collecting! boxes.

There are also the realms of fantasy and reality.

What makes you think Poots is not already giving the best deal he can afford and the recasters just make things more difficult for him to provide more to his customer base?

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
There are also the realms of fantasy and reality.

What makes you think Poots is not already giving the best deal he can afford and the recasters just make things more difficult for him to provide more to his customer base?

Were the Pin Ups available outside of the KS? Because these are the only KD recasts that I see all the time. Actual models are very rare, seemingly lacking demand (due to missing rules/cards or actually wanting to support the creator I can only guess).

And to expand on my earlier post, even if GW can take the risk they are in under no obligation to do so, I am just illustrating the extremes, the one company can take a risk and survive, regardless of if they choose to take the risk or not, the other simply cannot so the question should not be put i the first place.

Poots, of course, isn't the sculptor (or artist) of Kingdom Death. He credits his sculptors, and it's not hard to find their websites for their own work. So, if you're looking for high-quality sculpts even by the same sculptors, such sculpts are hardly limited. However, if you can only have *Kingdom Death* miniatures, you've now shown that the work the creator put into creating his brand name and vision has *value* to you that even the sculptors and artists he hired do not. If this drives yourself to a recaster-slash counterfeiter who's profiting off of another person's work (including the brand name-slash-vision), that's certainly how an illegal market works. But that recaster-slash-counterfeiter is certainly making money off of some else's work, and you can't always have things your way. If you're buying an original sculpture that the recaster has designed and made, I don't think we'd be having this conversation. Myself, while I have some GW games and miniatures, am quite able to walk away from their wargaming miniature line to Mantic. Likewise, I have found other "boutique" miniatures (or at least ones meant for display-level painting) from Dark Sword. *Neither* of these companies engage in recasts.

 Mymearan wrote:
SnotlingPimpWagon: Your reasoning is fundamentally flawed. You seem to think that you have a moral *right* to own whatever you want. No. You have no right whatsoever. All the rights to a certain model lies with its creator and producer. If they want to make no more than 100 copies of a model, and you don't get one of those 100, your *only* right is to cry and lament that you didn't get one. You have *no* right to make a copy of it just because you want it. Again, you have *no* right whatsoever to own something just because you want it. That's the long and short of it. Doesn't matter if it costs $1 or $100 000, it's not yours to take.

You sound like my government, especially with "you have no rights"part

If I decide to talk about my rights, I will make sure, I contact you.


@Hanskrampf Thanks for getting what I mean

@PsychoticStorm I believe he is giving us the best deal he can with 50% off offers(dragon king is just amazing value) and 200/250 dollars per 1.5 core (that one as well), and I'm truly sad, that 350 bucks (250+ 100 for shipping) puts me out of the loop.

What I'm saying, is that I hate the limited run policy, that makes it difficult for people to get what they want for the game they invested in, when they want it. It's very consumer unfriendly, and I wouldn't have any issues with people buying copies of miniatures, that are IMPOSSIBLE to get otherwise. (Copies of copies really, originals are printed in China)

Poots doesn't seem to see giving out 15000 orders from one Kickstarter by a small company as a risk though. Printing miniatures on demand, or more in advance with a chance of exceeding the demand doesn't seem to be a risk worthy of notice for a company with such a big following.

I'm actually happy to see them doing well, it makes me wish, that they will just start selling miniatures, like all other companies do, and if they were small before, now they have the funds to grow and catch up!

Back on topic:

The mosquito Is great! I don't like the massive fingers on the sides of the sack, but I actually really like the "extra arms everywhere" fetish of KD
How long does it usually take them to flesh out a model from
The artwork they show? I can't wait to see in miniature form

SnotlingPimpWagon: Horrible retort... seems pretty clear you didn't read my post. I'll leave it there since you are uninterested in discussion.

 Mymearan wrote:
SnotlingPimpWagon: Your reasoning is fundamentally flawed. You seem to think that you have a moral *right* to own whatever you want. No. You have no right whatsoever. All the rights to a certain model lies with its creator and producer. If they want to make no more than 100 copies of a model, and you don't get one of those 100, your *only* right is to cry and lament that you didn't get one. You have *no* right to make a copy of it just because you want it. Again, you have *no* right whatsoever to own something just because you want it. That's the long and short of it. Doesn't matter if it costs $1 or $100 000, it's not yours to take.

Who are you to tell someone what rights he or she has? Who has given you that right?

Yeah... I 100% get the intent of "don't be an entitled jerk," but not having the right to acquire something is actually potentially extremely discriminatory and rejecting services has been used as a weapon, and not having the right to what you already legally own describes the abolition of private property.

Now, a limited release is something about a privilege of being on the in crowd with enough money to acquire something, so is hardly the same thing, but, just, that was a pretty sweeping removal of people's rights in the justification of limited edition toys.

Psychotic-- I definitely agree that KD has nothing resembling the resources of GW, but would question your assumptions of his short runs of models: as seen numerous times, he's turned incredible volumes in short times due to scarcity of product, and no one other than the casters and people in studio can confirm what his motivations for that model are.

This "rights" discussion is getting off-topic. Please feel free to open another thread somewhere else to discuss it further. Thank you!

Pacific, I had no idea. Shows how little I know about recasters.


Now, if Scibor were to release a similar looking "Patriarch of Deceased Nation" mini, I'd be all over that.

Edit: just saw the warning.

Anyway, the creepy hands and faces are what make Kindgom Death's design effective for me. That's part of the signature look.

 Alpharius wrote:
There's really not a lot about KD's monsters that you would be OK with your kids seeing, is there?

Heh good point. I don't even let them look at Nurgle stuff much. I haven't seen the KDM minis in-person but it seems like the core monsters are unsettling but not the extreme genital-horror of some of the addons. Maybe I'm wrong though!

The hand stuff definitely fits the maximum creepiness vibe - take something normal and alter it in unexpected ways.

Clanan, completely depends. I think a few are definitely not all that clean, but, particularly in the core set, it's much more the rulebook that I'd feel uncomfortable sharing rather than the models (though there are a few that I haven't decided if I'll be modifying them or just not getting them, what with the giant phallus (phalli?)). Then again, I think I started watching horror movies when I was around 10, so I might be the wrong guy to ask.

SnotlingPimpWagon wrote:

What I'm saying, is that I hate the limited run policy, that makes it difficult for people to get what they want for the game they invested in, when they want it. It's very consumer unfriendly, and I wouldn't have any issues with people buying copies of miniatures, that are IMPOSSIBLE to get otherwise. (Copies of copies really, originals are printed in China)

The universe is finite, everything is limited run.

The demand is outstripping the supply, which is amazing for a $400 game. Can't afford it, too bad bro. Tesla doesn't owe me a Model S at Golf prices, just because I can't afford the 'real' one.

Also, the resins are hand cast in France, not China. Those are the real "impossible" minis to get.

Iain.

Iron_Captain wrote:
.

spiralingcadaver wrote:.

¨You both misunderstood my post, I was simply informing him that the market and copyright law doesn't agree with his views. I have PMed you both to avoid derailing further.

Clanan wrote:

Heh good point. I don't even let them look at Nurgle stuff much. I haven't seen the KDM minis in-person but it seems like the core monsters are unsettling but not the extreme genital-horror of some of the addons. Maybe I'm wrong though!

The hand stuff definitely fits the maximum creepiness vibe - take something normal and alter it in unexpected ways.

KDM plays more with the uncanny valley than with the shock genitals have, every monster is something recognisable yet off, the lion has hands and while it resembles a lion it has some distinctive elements that make the familiar form of the lion weird and bizarre, the arms are well shaped in contrast with the grotesque form that caries them, the faces are calm and serene despite the carnage that evolves around them, all parts of KDM are designed (in my opinion) to send contradicting signals to the viewer and confuse him or her, sure there are genitals here and there but they are not what makes the image unsettling.

From Poot's comments the future Gamer's pledge(including everything with rules, but no pinups basically) will cost more than the Satan pledges even after their discount. So early pledgers must be getting huge savings.

He must have a ton of expansions and other content left to reveal.

Yep. See this BGG compilation if you haven't: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1689220/sounds-there-still-tons-new-content-reveal

Although, in my POV, all this value is *perceived* value. Art is only worth what someone will pay for it. Not MSRP. I'm reading more postings on BGG about reselling the KD:M miniatures more than any other KS I've followed, including miniatures, such as Reaper. This means, of course, that there will be much more aftermarket supply than there was for the first KS. With non-miniature backers resulting in copies with partially assembled miniatures, we may even see backers who just want to get rid of the game and recoup their costs.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
That pinup frogdog, I might need to buy one or two extras since the puppies are so cure.