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Made in gb
Ship's Officer



London

A lascannon and a heavy bolter do almost nothing. They are extremely fragile.

I was thinking about a squad with 4 heavy bolters, but they are just totally outclassed now. They cost 105 points and have 12 shots at S5 and ap-1. 5 intercessors cost 85 points and get 10 shots at S4 and ap-1. But the intercessors have the primaris profile and are troops. They are almost as killy, far tougher and almost infinitely more useful for taking objectives and winning games.

Some people like to have the option for a hellfire shell or two. Personally I don't think it's worth bringing a unit that's so underpowered, just to get access to this, but opinions vary.
   
Made in hk
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant




Mandragola wrote:
A lascannon and a heavy bolter do almost nothing. They are extremely fragile.

I was thinking about a squad with 4 heavy bolters, but they are just totally outclassed now. They cost 105 points and have 12 shots at S5 and ap-1. 5 intercessors cost 85 points and get 10 shots at S4 and ap-1. But the intercessors have the primaris profile and are troops. They are almost as killy, far tougher and almost infinitely more useful for taking objectives and winning games.

Some people like to have the option for a hellfire shell or two. Personally I don't think it's worth bringing a unit that's so underpowered, just to get access to this, but opinions vary.


That stratagem might be the only thing Space Marine have which can reliably put a couple wounds on IK, Magnus and the like.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Yup my bad, rule of 3!


Neophyte2012 wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
A lascannon and a heavy bolter do almost nothing. They are extremely fragile.

I was thinking about a squad with 4 heavy bolters, but they are just totally outclassed now. They cost 105 points and have 12 shots at S5 and ap-1. 5 intercessors cost 85 points and get 10 shots at S4 and ap-1. But the intercessors have the primaris profile and are troops. They are almost as killy, far tougher and almost infinitely more useful for taking objectives and winning games.

Some people like to have the option for a hellfire shell or two. Personally I don't think it's worth bringing a unit that's so underpowered, just to get access to this, but opinions vary.


That stratagem might be the only thing Space Marine have which can reliably put a couple wounds on IK, Magnus and the like.


Is it worth taking 3 dev squads with a single HB in each instead of 3 scouts squads, just to get access to the signum (+1 to hit rolls) and armorium cherub (2d3 instead of d3) ?
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer



London

Neophyte2012 wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
A lascannon and a heavy bolter do almost nothing. They are extremely fragile.

I was thinking about a squad with 4 heavy bolters, but they are just totally outclassed now. They cost 105 points and have 12 shots at S5 and ap-1. 5 intercessors cost 85 points and get 10 shots at S4 and ap-1. But the intercessors have the primaris profile and are troops. They are almost as killy, far tougher and almost infinitely more useful for taking objectives and winning games.

Some people like to have the option for a hellfire shell or two. Personally I don't think it's worth bringing a unit that's so underpowered, just to get access to this, but opinions vary.


That stratagem might be the only thing Space Marine have which can reliably put a couple wounds on IK, Magnus and the like.

It's not all that reliable really though, is it?

Firstly, you need your devastators to be alive. This is tricky when they are so incredibly vulnerable to shooting and close combat, especially against armies like knights. And of course you still need to hit and it costs a CP every time. And then it causes just 2 wounds on average to a target with tons of wounds. It's nowhere near enough to kill them.
   
Made in gb
Missionary On A Mission



Ottawa

aoutp wrote:
Yup my bad, rule of 3!


Neophyte2012 wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
A lascannon and a heavy bolter do almost nothing. They are extremely fragile.

I was thinking about a squad with 4 heavy bolters, but they are just totally outclassed now. They cost 105 points and have 12 shots at S5 and ap-1. 5 intercessors cost 85 points and get 10 shots at S4 and ap-1. But the intercessors have the primaris profile and are troops. They are almost as killy, far tougher and almost infinitely more useful for taking objectives and winning games.

Some people like to have the option for a hellfire shell or two. Personally I don't think it's worth bringing a unit that's so underpowered, just to get access to this, but opinions vary.


That stratagem might be the only thing Space Marine have which can reliably put a couple wounds on IK, Magnus and the like.


Is it worth taking 3 dev squads with a single HB in each instead of 3 scouts squads, just to get access to the signum (+1 to hit rolls) and armorium cherub (2d3 instead of d3) ?


Yes, nothing but good things to say about this.

If your meta has lots of flying units, consider a ML for the missile strat too.

Add an Ancient so that the unit can also trigger hellfire shells whenever they die. An apothecary could be valuable for returning the HB back to you.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/14 14:54:17


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




HB Devs with a hellfire I feel like sit in the same realm as say sniper scouts. Their damage per point over the course of an entire game is quite good. However, what they lack is that potential big hit to really put the hurt on something turn 1 before the enemy can fire back. So either you need a bunch of similar stuff to all fire together or you don’t bother.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Mandragola wrote:
Neophyte2012 wrote:
Lemondish wrote:
Neophyte2012 wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
They don't give up any points when killed; ergo, the most durable.

I see what you mean, ok. In that sense they certainly are durable.

In another sense though, they are dead and gone. You may not be able to get rid of all of them fast, but you can certainly get rid of quite a lot of them. Removing IG from somewhere important, like an objective, isn't that difficult.

So the result is that they may not lose points all that quickly, but they lose VPs and games. And that matters more.


That is easier said than done actually. Nowadays same points Space Marines die much much faster than guardsmen. You think guardsmen are weak? watch your 40 bolter/stormbolter shots near Guilliman bounce off from that 3+ save guardsmen squad.


That would statistically overkill the unit by 50%.

So if you're having trouble removing infantry squads with 40 bolt rifle shots then you have the worst possible luck.

Because even at 3+, they'll still die fast.


It happened more than once, 5 Storm Vet on bikes near Guilliman opened fire, IG pops "Grenadier" stratagem, then only 5-6 IG died.

Grenadier doesn’t improve their saves. I think you probably mean take cover.

Ultimately when you roll dice things can all go horribly wrong. That’s actually less likely when rolling tons of dice at guardsmen, but it still happens.

I find the -1 ap that intercessors bring is very valuable. It’s kind of obvious but models do tend to die a lot more consistently to them.

It's actually not overkill.

5 Vets with Bikes and Storm Bolters is 40 shots. With Roboute nearby, 35 hit and 31 wound. The moment you have cover and pop Take Cover, you on average kill exactly 10.

That means there's actually a good chance you could fail to kill one.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer



London

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
Neophyte2012 wrote:
Lemondish wrote:
Neophyte2012 wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
They don't give up any points when killed; ergo, the most durable.

I see what you mean, ok. In that sense they certainly are durable.

In another sense though, they are dead and gone. You may not be able to get rid of all of them fast, but you can certainly get rid of quite a lot of them. Removing IG from somewhere important, like an objective, isn't that difficult.

So the result is that they may not lose points all that quickly, but they lose VPs and games. And that matters more.


That is easier said than done actually. Nowadays same points Space Marines die much much faster than guardsmen. You think guardsmen are weak? watch your 40 bolter/stormbolter shots near Guilliman bounce off from that 3+ save guardsmen squad.


That would statistically overkill the unit by 50%.

So if you're having trouble removing infantry squads with 40 bolt rifle shots then you have the worst possible luck.

Because even at 3+, they'll still die fast.


It happened more than once, 5 Storm Vet on bikes near Guilliman opened fire, IG pops "Grenadier" stratagem, then only 5-6 IG died.

Grenadier doesn’t improve their saves. I think you probably mean take cover.

Ultimately when you roll dice things can all go horribly wrong. That’s actually less likely when rolling tons of dice at guardsmen, but it still happens.

I find the -1 ap that intercessors bring is very valuable. It’s kind of obvious but models do tend to die a lot more consistently to them.

It's actually not overkill.

5 Vets with Bikes and Storm Bolters is 40 shots. With Roboute nearby, 35 hit and 31 wound. The moment you have cover and pop Take Cover, you on average kill exactly 10.

That means there's actually a good chance you could fail to kill one.

I think the chances of killing no models with 3+ saves with 31 wounds are pretty tiny. The chances of not wiping out the unit would be pretty high though - requiring only a slightly below average result - if that's what you meant. Of course, the chances of 1 or 2 models sticking around through the morale phase after their unit lost 8-9 models are also quite small!
   
Made in gb
Missionary On A Mission



Ottawa

You have to remember, if Slayer can't win the game in the first turn with that unit, it's trash.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/03/15 00:04:12


 
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





Lemondish wrote:
You have to remember, if Slayer can't win the game in the first turn with that unit, it's trash.


yeah it's a mentality I don't get

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/15 01:09:34


Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Lemondish wrote:
You have to remember, if Slayer can't win the game in the first turn with that unit, it's trash.

Are you attempting to defend the cost of Infantry here?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Neophyte2012 wrote:
aoutp wrote:
Guys, how good are Devastator right now ?

Are they just too fragile (at the end of the day, the average dev squad only have 5 W and a 3+).

In terms of sheer damage output (against large targets), is there a more efficient unit in the codex ?
For 105 you got a LC and a HB that can pump 2d3 mortal wounds, and you got the reroll thingy from the Sarge.

Any reason we don't see 4 or 5 dev squad in every 2k comp ?


You cannot take 4-5 squads of Dev because of rule of three.

Of the 3 Devastator Squads you take, Castellan Knight and Crusader Kinght will swipe them easily as If they are worthless insects, If you go up against Knight army.
um considering that most knight profiles are multi damage. How are other marine units going to last longer vs a knight?

Devistators are great. I like taking a mixed squad, with 2 laz, 1 missle, one heavy bolter, and a couple extra guys to soak damage. Their big weakness is their lack of mobility, because heavy weapons. Calling them fragile.. is silly. The whole codex is fragile, we don't get free invuns on everything like everyone else.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/15 02:15:35


 
   
Made in hk
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant




Mandragola wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
Neophyte2012 wrote:
Lemondish wrote:
Neophyte2012 wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
They don't give up any points when killed; ergo, the most durable.

I see what you mean, ok. In that sense they certainly are durable.

In another sense though, they are dead and gone. You may not be able to get rid of all of them fast, but you can certainly get rid of quite a lot of them. Removing IG from somewhere important, like an objective, isn't that difficult.

So the result is that they may not lose points all that quickly, but they lose VPs and games. And that matters more.


That is easier said than done actually. Nowadays same points Space Marines die much much faster than guardsmen. You think guardsmen are weak? watch your 40 bolter/stormbolter shots near Guilliman bounce off from that 3+ save guardsmen squad.


That would statistically overkill the unit by 50%.

So if you're having trouble removing infantry squads with 40 bolt rifle shots then you have the worst possible luck.

Because even at 3+, they'll still die fast.


It happened more than once, 5 Storm Vet on bikes near Guilliman opened fire, IG pops "Grenadier" stratagem, then only 5-6 IG died.

Grenadier doesn’t improve their saves. I think you probably mean take cover.

Ultimately when you roll dice things can all go horribly wrong. That’s actually less likely when rolling tons of dice at guardsmen, but it still happens.

I find the -1 ap that intercessors bring is very valuable. It’s kind of obvious but models do tend to die a lot more consistently to them.

It's actually not overkill.

5 Vets with Bikes and Storm Bolters is 40 shots. With Roboute nearby, 35 hit and 31 wound. The moment you have cover and pop Take Cover, you on average kill exactly 10.

That means there's actually a good chance you could fail to kill one.

I think the chances of killing no models with 3+ saves with 31 wounds are pretty tiny. The chances of not wiping out the unit would be pretty high though - requiring only a slightly below average result - if that's what you meant. Of course, the chances of 1 or 2 models sticking around through the morale phase after their unit lost 8-9 models are also quite small!


I run the math on website programme. It shows that the chances of 5 biker Storm Vet killing at least 10 guardsmen are 63.5%. That means the failing rate would be 36.5%.

Well that probability would say it is OK to shoot the guardsmen with Storm Vets. But with a failing rate of over 1/3, you should seriously take the failure into consideration when planning for that move.

After repeatedly consistent bad luck in the game while experienced many incredible luck on my opponent side, I would only call an event with less than 25% failing rate as "reliable" If I am on the active side.

When guessing If enemy's move would be successful, I would put the threshold at a successful probability of over 40%.

I call that conservative analysis.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
footfoe wrote:
Neophyte2012 wrote:
aoutp wrote:
Guys, how good are Devastator right now ?

Are they just too fragile (at the end of the day, the average dev squad only have 5 W and a 3+).

In terms of sheer damage output (against large targets), is there a more efficient unit in the codex ?
For 105 you got a LC and a HB that can pump 2d3 mortal wounds, and you got the reroll thingy from the Sarge.

Any reason we don't see 4 or 5 dev squad in every 2k comp ?


You cannot take 4-5 squads of Dev because of rule of three.

Of the 3 Devastator Squads you take, Castellan Knight and Crusader Kinght will swipe them easily as If they are worthless insects, If you go up against Knight army.
um considering that most knight profiles are multi damage. How are other marine units going to last longer vs a knight?

Devistators are great. I like taking a mixed squad, with 2 laz, 1 missle, one heavy bolter, and a couple extra guys to soak damage. Their big weakness is their lack of mobility, because heavy weapons. Calling them fragile.. is silly. The whole codex is fragile, we don't get free invuns on everything like everyone else.


Yes basically If you go up against IK, prepare to loss more than 15 marines per turn to only the Castellan and Crusader.
If you use Biker Veterans with StormShield, they still likely (more than 40% chances) to kill 9 to 10 of those.

But against other armies with less competitive builds, Marines may be a little tougher.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/15 03:27:51


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






In a Trayzn pokeball

Come up with a new TAC list, raven guard chapter tactics

Spoiler:
Battalion

Lias Issodon
Lieutenant
Power Sword
Storm Bolter

10 Intercessors
10 Intercessors
7 Scouts

Company Ancient

Mortis Dreadnought
2 Twin Autocannon
3 Centurions
3 Hurricane Bolters
6 Lazcannons

Stormhawk Interceptor
Laztalon
Twin Assault Cannon
Typhoon Missile Launcher

Spearhead

Techmarine
Power Axe
Servo Arm

10 Devastators
Storm Bolter
4 Missile Launchers
Armourium Cherub
10 Devastators
Storm Bolter
4 Plasmacannon
3 Eliminators
3 Bolt Sniper Rifle

Assasins
Vindicare Assassin

The idea is for a super castle, and Lias Issodon starts on the board, with the Storm of Fire trait. Then the troops try hide and grab objectives. The eliminators and vindicare might deploy with the caste, might not depending on the board. Interceptor is there for shenanigans, killing anything with fly and not being too bad at ground attack. Techmarine is there to heal the mortis dread and becasue he's the cheapest HQ for the spearhead detachment. Will be trying this out on sunday against another raven guard list which I'm fairly sure will contain a leviathan and at least one sicaran, but it's really designed to take out a tau list I've now lost twice to.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/03/15 15:46:25


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The hobby is actually hating GW.
 iGuy91 wrote:
You love the T-Rex. Its both a hero and a Villain in the first two movies. It is the "king" of dinosaurs. Its the best. You love your T-rex.
Then comes along the frakking Spinosaurus who kills the T-rex, and the movie says "LOVE THIS NOW! HE IS BETTER" But...in your heart, you love the T-rex, who shouldn't have lost to no stupid Spinosaurus. So you hate the movie. And refuse to love the Spinosaurus because it is a hamfisted attempt at taking what you loved, making it TREX +++ and trying to sell you it.
 Elbows wrote:
You know what's better than a psychic phase? A psychic phase which asks customers to buy more miniatures...
the_scotsman wrote:
Dae think the company behind such names as deathwatch death guard deathskullz death marks death korps deathleaper death jester might be bad at naming?
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Come up with a new TAC list, raven guard chapter tactics

Spoiler:
Battalion

Lias Issodon
Lieutenant
Power Sword
Storm Bolter

10 Intercessors
10 Intercessors
7 Scouts

Company Ancient

Mortis Dreadnought
2 Twin Autocannon
3 Centurions
3 Hurricane Bolters
6 Lazcannons

Stormhawk Interceptor
Laztalon
Twin Assault Cannon
Typhoon Missile Launcher

Spearhead

Techmarine
Power Axe
Servo Arm

10 Devastators
Storm Bolter
4 Missile Launchers
Armourium Cherub
10 Devastators
Storm Bolter
4 Plasmacannon
3 Eliminators
3 Bolt Sniper Rifle

Assasins
Vindicare Assassin

The idea is for a super castle, and Lias Issodon starts on the board, with the Storm of Fire trait. Then the troops try hide and grab objectives. The eliminators and vindicare might deploy with the caste, might not depending on the board. Interceptor is there for shenanigans, killing anything with fly and not being too bad at ground attack. Techmarine is there to heal the mortis dread and becasue he's the cheapest HQ for the spearhead detachment. Will be trying this out on sunday against another raven guard list which I'm fairly sure will contain a leviathan and at least one sicaran, but it's really designed to take out a tau list I've now lost twice to.


If you going super castle I would try two 5 man squads of the infiltrators (the ones that deny deepstrike within 12 inches).Yes they are super expensive, but positioned correctly they could make your castle functionally immune to deepstrike charges which is critical for castles in some match-ups. If you go up against an army that has no deepstriking they can be used for screening or board control. Lower damage output is absolutely worth the board control.

Also for assassins, you should always be spending the CP to choose whichever one you want before the game. My two cents anyways.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






In a Trayzn pokeball

Vilehydra wrote:
If you going super castle I would try two 5 man squads of the infiltrators (the ones that deny deepstrike within 12 inches).Yes they are super expensive, but positioned correctly they could make your castle functionally immune to deepstrike charges which is critical for castles in some match-ups. If you go up against an army that has no deepstriking they can be used for screening or board control. Lower damage output is absolutely worth the board control.

Also for assassins, you should always be spending the CP to choose whichever one you want before the game. My two cents anyways.

Given I play in quite a terrain rich environment and a more shooty meta, deep strike charges aren't too much of a worry, plus without shenanigans 9" charges aren't too reliable. Just on Thursday I had a GM in dread knight and a squad of paladins drop in with the reroll charges warlord train, and failed all 4 9" charge attempts. Also I'd rather have the 20 extra wounds and better gun stats for fewer points in my screen. As for the assassins, much as I'd love to, I can't just drop £80 on four models, although I'm sure if I were taking it to a tournament it'd be a good idea.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/03/16 08:32:41


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The hobby is actually hating GW.
 iGuy91 wrote:
You love the T-Rex. Its both a hero and a Villain in the first two movies. It is the "king" of dinosaurs. Its the best. You love your T-rex.
Then comes along the frakking Spinosaurus who kills the T-rex, and the movie says "LOVE THIS NOW! HE IS BETTER" But...in your heart, you love the T-rex, who shouldn't have lost to no stupid Spinosaurus. So you hate the movie. And refuse to love the Spinosaurus because it is a hamfisted attempt at taking what you loved, making it TREX +++ and trying to sell you it.
 Elbows wrote:
You know what's better than a psychic phase? A psychic phase which asks customers to buy more miniatures...
the_scotsman wrote:
Dae think the company behind such names as deathwatch death guard deathskullz death marks death korps deathleaper death jester might be bad at naming?
 
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Vilehydra wrote:
If you going super castle I would try two 5 man squads of the infiltrators (the ones that deny deepstrike within 12 inches).Yes they are super expensive, but positioned correctly they could make your castle functionally immune to deepstrike charges which is critical for castles in some match-ups. If you go up against an army that has no deepstriking they can be used for screening or board control. Lower damage output is absolutely worth the board control.

Also for assassins, you should always be spending the CP to choose whichever one you want before the game. My two cents anyways.

Given I play in quite a terrain rich environment and a more shooty meta, deep strike charges aren't too much of a worry, plus without shenanigans 9" charges aren't too reliable. Just on Thursday I had a GM in dread knight and a squad of paladins drop in with the reroll charges warlord train, and failed all 4 9" charge attempts. Also I'd rather have the 20 extra wounds and better gun stats for fewer points in my screen. As for the assassins, much as I'd love to, I can't just drop £80 on four models, although I'm sure if I were taking it to a tournament it'd be a good idea.


Well generally deepstrike assaulters have shenigans. Reroll charges, +1 to charge roll, 3d6 movement. Of course many deep strike assaulters like da jumped evil suns ignore that 12" anyway.

https://middleagedstrategybattlegamers.home.blog/2019/11/16/tneva82-goblins-humans-and-elves/ <- lotr painting blog

12 factions for Lord of The Rings
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
5265 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






In a Trayzn pokeball

tneva82 wrote:
Well generally deepstrike assaulters have shenigans. Reroll charges, +1 to charge roll, 3d6 movement. Of course many deep strike assaulters like da jumped evil suns ignore that 12" anyway.

Plus with all those shenanigans, is that extra 3" really going to change anything for the extra 5 points and minimised damage output vs intercessors?

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The hobby is actually hating GW.
 iGuy91 wrote:
You love the T-Rex. Its both a hero and a Villain in the first two movies. It is the "king" of dinosaurs. Its the best. You love your T-rex.
Then comes along the frakking Spinosaurus who kills the T-rex, and the movie says "LOVE THIS NOW! HE IS BETTER" But...in your heart, you love the T-rex, who shouldn't have lost to no stupid Spinosaurus. So you hate the movie. And refuse to love the Spinosaurus because it is a hamfisted attempt at taking what you loved, making it TREX +++ and trying to sell you it.
 Elbows wrote:
You know what's better than a psychic phase? A psychic phase which asks customers to buy more miniatures...
the_scotsman wrote:
Dae think the company behind such names as deathwatch death guard deathskullz death marks death korps deathleaper death jester might be bad at naming?
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Well generally deepstrike assaulters have shenigans. Reroll charges, +1 to charge roll, 3d6 movement. Of course many deep strike assaulters like da jumped evil suns ignore that 12" anyway.

Plus with all those shenanigans, is that extra 3" really going to change anything for the extra 5 points and minimised damage output vs intercessors?


A lot actually. The chances of orks deepstriking and making a charge is above 50% (Can't remember the exact chance, but it is more likely than not) with a 9" charge. That goes to a 0% chance because you can only declare charges against units within 12" even if you have 3d6 charge range. Being able to guarantee that these units can't make deepstrike charges is pretty useful, It will allow your intercessors and other castle units to fire more times vs. a deepstrike army. If your local meta doesn't use heavily use deepstrike, then your probably better in not including the infiltrators. Although toss in a phobos librarian with Obfuscation to make them untargetable if your worried about standard turn 2 deepstrikes.
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

Vilehydra wrote:
 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Well generally deepstrike assaulters have shenigans. Reroll charges, +1 to charge roll, 3d6 movement. Of course many deep strike assaulters like da jumped evil suns ignore that 12" anyway.

Plus with all those shenanigans, is that extra 3" really going to change anything for the extra 5 points and minimised damage output vs intercessors?


A lot actually. The chances of orks deepstriking and making a charge is above 50% (Can't remember the exact chance, but it is more likely than not) with a 9" charge. That goes to a 0% chance because you can only declare charges against units within 12" even if you have 3d6 charge range. Being able to guarantee that these units can't make deepstrike charges is pretty useful, It will allow your intercessors and other castle units to fire more times vs. a deepstrike army. If your local meta doesn't use heavily use deepstrike, then your probably better in not including the infiltrators. Although toss in a phobos librarian with Obfuscation to make them untargetable if your worried about standard turn 2 deepstrikes.


Orks can still Da Jump you because they're not being placed as reserves. You'd be safe from Letterbombs though.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Vilehydra wrote:
 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Well generally deepstrike assaulters have shenigans. Reroll charges, +1 to charge roll, 3d6 movement. Of course many deep strike assaulters like da jumped evil suns ignore that 12" anyway.

Plus with all those shenanigans, is that extra 3" really going to change anything for the extra 5 points and minimised damage output vs intercessors?


A lot actually. The chances of orks deepstriking and making a charge is above 50% (Can't remember the exact chance, but it is more likely than not) with a 9" charge. That goes to a 0% chance because you can only declare charges against units within 12" even if you have 3d6 charge range. Being able to guarantee that these units can't make deepstrike charges is pretty useful, It will allow your intercessors and other castle units to fire more times vs. a deepstrike army. If your local meta doesn't use heavily use deepstrike, then your probably better in not including the infiltrators. Although toss in a phobos librarian with Obfuscation to make them untargetable if your worried about standard turn 2 deepstrikes.


Orks can still Da Jump you because they're not being placed as reserves. You'd be safe from Letterbombs though.


I'd have to take a re-read on the rules interaction but you may be right there. Still protects your from tellyporta + Ramming Speed on vehicle deepstrikes. And again being able to change a 54% chance of a deepstrike charge w/ re-roll strategem to a 0% is really useful in a lot of match-ups. Fighting against and army that doesn't use deepstrikers? That's okay, use the infiltrators for board control and just plop them on objectives or in a place where they could tie down shooty units. I tend to value versatility in my lists (I think its one thing marines can actually bring to the table that other armies can't) and taking a single tool that can be used in a variety of circumstances lends towards that versatility. Still don't know whether infiltrators will be worth the cost though..

Also would the infiltrators ability prevent GSC 'lying in wait strategem' of deepstriking within 3" of a unit. I'd assume so, and I'd like to avoid getting hit by 20 handflamers.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






In a Trayzn pokeball

Interesting thoughts, although I still find the cost prohibitive, now it's confirmed as 22 points. I think if it works as a deepstrike that strategem would be stopped, as the rule says "Enemy units that are set up on the battlefield as reserves cannot be set up within 12" of this unit." So worth taking if you know you're going against GSC.


As for the list I posted, I lost the game against another RG list with three sicaran variants and a leviathan, mortis contemptor and redemptor dread, with a smattering of intercessors and agressors. If I'd gone first I'd have probably won, and I think the list performed well, it sort of made a comeback from turn two to turn 4. The Centurions with the ancient was a deadly combo. Vindicator seems an auto take, he performed great, and the devestators did a lot, especially with the ancient. I'm sure the list will stomp the tau list that's now beaten me twice.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/03/17 19:20:38


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The hobby is actually hating GW.
 iGuy91 wrote:
You love the T-Rex. Its both a hero and a Villain in the first two movies. It is the "king" of dinosaurs. Its the best. You love your T-rex.
Then comes along the frakking Spinosaurus who kills the T-rex, and the movie says "LOVE THIS NOW! HE IS BETTER" But...in your heart, you love the T-rex, who shouldn't have lost to no stupid Spinosaurus. So you hate the movie. And refuse to love the Spinosaurus because it is a hamfisted attempt at taking what you loved, making it TREX +++ and trying to sell you it.
 Elbows wrote:
You know what's better than a psychic phase? A psychic phase which asks customers to buy more miniatures...
the_scotsman wrote:
Dae think the company behind such names as deathwatch death guard deathskullz death marks death korps deathleaper death jester might be bad at naming?
 
   
Made in gb
Bounding Assault Marine




Infiltrators protect from assault via Da Jump. Here's my reasoning.

Firstly the Omni-scramblers stop enemy units being setup as reinforcements within 12". Its important to note the wording. Not arriving from Tactical Reserve, but being setup as reinforcements.

Reinforcements are defined as "units (which) have the ability to be setup on the battlefield mid-turn." by the rulebook.

Da Jump clearly removes a unit from the board and then sets it up again mid-turn.

Da Jump wrote:
If manifested, select a friendly ORK INFANTRY unit within 12" of the psyker. Remove that unit from the battlefield, and then set it up anywhere on the battlefield more than 9" away from any enemy units.


Hence, while they are not arriving from Tactical Reserves, they are still counted as Reinforcements. Further evidence is the Auspex Scan strategem

Auspex Scan wrote:
Use this stratagem immediately after your opponent sets up a unit that is arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements within 12" of one of your ADEPTUS ASTARTES Infantry units.


GW confirmed that this applies to units which started on the table and were removed and setup again.

Space Marine FAQ wrote:
Q: Can the Auspex Scan Stratagem be used to shoot an enemy unit that is removed from the battlefield and then set up again, for example, when using a teleport homer?
A: Yes.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Back to the Devs, how many points worth of covered infantry do you think you need to justify taking an Ancient? Shots in an opponent’s turn are nice, especially if you can pop Hellfire again, but I’m never feeling like I get his points worth vs just taking more shooting to begin with. And staying within his 6” is a lot more restrictive than toe-ining an aura.

I’m trying to free up 60 points to change a unit of Scouts to Infiltrators and he seems the easy target, but so many better players seem to run one without visibly much more to put in his aura than I am.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




bort wrote:
Back to the Devs, how many points worth of covered infantry do you think you need to justify taking an Ancient? Shots in an opponent’s turn are nice, especially if you can pop Hellfire again, but I’m never feeling like I get his points worth vs just taking more shooting to begin with. And staying within his 6” is a lot more restrictive than toe-ining an aura.

I’m trying to free up 60 points to change a unit of Scouts to Infiltrators and he seems the easy target, but so many better players seem to run one without visibly much more to put in his aura than I am.

Again it depends on the level of your opponents to an extent aswell, as sometimes it's not geting his points back in shooting directly, but in forcing choices upon your opponents. It alao depends on some of the wording of certain abilities as to how much they can be abused.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Ice_can wrote:
bort wrote:
Back to the Devs, how many points worth of covered infantry do you think you need to justify taking an Ancient? Shots in an opponent’s turn are nice, especially if you can pop Hellfire again, but I’m never feeling like I get his points worth vs just taking more shooting to begin with. And staying within his 6” is a lot more restrictive than toe-ining an aura.

I’m trying to free up 60 points to change a unit of Scouts to Infiltrators and he seems the easy target, but so many better players seem to run one without visibly much more to put in his aura than I am.

Again it depends on the level of your opponents to an extent aswell, as sometimes it's not geting his points back in shooting directly, but in forcing choices upon your opponents. It alao depends on some of the wording of certain abilities as to how much they can be abused.


What are you picturing here? One of the main issues I've always had with the banner is trying to think of something good to abuse with it. Hellfire is great, but relies on your opponent bothering to shoot a Dev unit that is (presumably) half bolter bodies. Overcharged plasma or lascannon Devs are also great, but no one vanilla runs Hellblaster castles and las Devs are too expensive. Things like Centurions only get 1 of their multiple guns to shoot...You can also get the odd free close combat swing in with a dying character, which is nice, but not what you're aiming for when taking it.

But if you look at say Nanavati's UM 2.0 list, the thing is pure storm bolters and heavy bolter type stuff and he still has a banner. Unless there's a trick I'm missing, that's not triggering anything good, that's just quantity of shots on death. Which gets me back to debating if I should keep the banner and focus on improving my deployment to keep more in the bubble or my list simply doesn't have enough to make him worthwhile.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




bort wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
bort wrote:
Back to the Devs, how many points worth of covered infantry do you think you need to justify taking an Ancient? Shots in an opponent’s turn are nice, especially if you can pop Hellfire again, but I’m never feeling like I get his points worth vs just taking more shooting to begin with. And staying within his 6” is a lot more restrictive than toe-ining an aura.

I’m trying to free up 60 points to change a unit of Scouts to Infiltrators and he seems the easy target, but so many better players seem to run one without visibly much more to put in his aura than I am.

Again it depends on the level of your opponents to an extent aswell, as sometimes it's not geting his points back in shooting directly, but in forcing choices upon your opponents. It alao depends on some of the wording of certain abilities as to how much they can be abused.


What are you picturing here? One of the main issues I've always had with the banner is trying to think of something good to abuse with it. Hellfire is great, but relies on your opponent bothering to shoot a Dev unit that is (presumably) half bolter bodies. Overcharged plasma or lascannon Devs are also great, but no one vanilla runs Hellblaster castles and las Devs are too expensive. Things like Centurions only get 1 of their multiple guns to shoot...You can also get the odd free close combat swing in with a dying character, which is nice, but not what you're aiming for when taking it.

But if you look at say Nanavati's UM 2.0 list, the thing is pure storm bolters and heavy bolter type stuff and he still has a banner. Unless there's a trick I'm missing, that's not triggering anything good, that's just quantity of shots on death. Which gets me back to debating if I should keep the banner and focus on improving my deployment to keep more in the bubble or my list simply doesn't have enough to make him worthwhile.

That "one weapon" Centurions get to shoot can be a Hurricane Bolter, so I dunno if that's a good argument on your end, especially with the Beta Bolter rules becoming a lot more popular.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Sure, that's definitely the best weapon pick. But, still it's taking an entire additional Centurion for 70pts or the banner for 70. You aren't making that worthwhile for a 4/6 chance of firing the only the hurricane on death from say 1 squad of 3. You either need a lot more bodies or something a lot cooler than I'm missing.
Edit: even granting that stuff is practically guaranteed to die this edition and maybe you think 2 hurricane bolter shots is worth 70pts (I suppose that’s like buying 2 Agressors who only live to shoot once, so maybe...) but the fact the timing of the shots is at the control of your opponent has to drop their value.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/20 16:10:29


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




bort wrote:
Sure, that's definitely the best weapon pick. But, still it's taking an entire additional Centurion for 70pts or the banner for 70. You aren't making that worthwhile for a 4/6 chance of firing the only the hurricane on death from say 1 squad of 3. You either need a lot more bodies or something a lot cooler than I'm missing.
Edit: even granting that stuff is practically guaranteed to die this edition and maybe you think 2 hurricane bolter shots is worth 70pts (I suppose that’s like buying 2 Agressors who only live to shoot once, so maybe...) but the fact the timing of the shots is at the control of your opponent has to drop their value.

Everything in the codex is priced like it gets these abilities. The relic banner is one of the few good choices in the codex and I would encourage anyone running 20+ Infantry models near each other to make use of the Ancient.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




I'm in a semi-competative spring league. Doing well so far winning my first two games. Any suggestions on improvements? i'm having a hard time considering taking out anything.

The league has mostly chaos soup, eldar soup, orks. The orks lists look more mechanized than more meta lists.

Spoiler:
Battalion Detachment

Ultramarines

+ HQ [13 PL, 229pts] +

Captain on Bike [6 PL, 114pts]: Combi-melta [15pts], Power fist [9pts], The Sanctic Halo, Twin boltgun [2pts]

Chief Librarian Tigurius

+ Troops [17 PL, 205pts] +

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]:

Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts]
.

Scout Squad [6 PL, 65pts]
. Scout w/Heavy Weapon [21pts]: Heavy bolter [10pts]

+ Elites [7 PL, 127pts] +

Company Ancient [4 PL, 63pts]: Boltgun, Standard of the Emperor Ascendant

Victrix Honour Guard [3 PL, 64pts]
.
+ Fast Attack [13 PL, 213pts] +

Bike Squad [5 PL, 75pts]
. Space Marine Biker w/Special Weapon [29pts]: Flamer [6pts], Twin boltgun [2pts]

Scout Bike Squad [4 PL, 69pts]
.
Scout Bike Squad [4 PL, 69pts]

+ Dedicated Transport [5 PL, 112pts] +

Razorback [5 PL, 112pts]: Storm bolter [2pts], Twin lascannon [40pts]

++ Spearhead Detachment ++

Ultramarines

+ HQ [11 PL, 212pts] +

Sergeant Chronus [11 PL, 212pts]
. Predator [9 PL, 182pts]: Predator autocannon [40pts], Storm bolter [2pts], Two Lascannons [50pts]

+ Heavy Support [30 PL, 502pts] +

Devastator Squad [11 PL, 161pts]: Armorium Cherub [5pts]
. 2x Space Marine [26pts]
. Space Marine Sergeant [13pts]: Boltgun
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon [38pts]: Lascannon [25pts]
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon [23pts]: Heavy bolter [10pts]
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon [33pts]: Missile launcher [20pts]
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon [23pts]: Heavy bolter [10pts]

Devastator Squad [11 PL, 176pts]: Armorium Cherub [5pts]
. 2x Space Marine [26pts]
. Space Marine Sergeant [13pts]: Boltgun
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon [38pts]: Lascannon [25pts]
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon [38pts]: Lascannon [25pts]
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon [33pts]: Missile launcher [20pts]
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon [23pts]: Heavy bolter [10pts]

Hellblaster Squad [8 PL, 165pts]:

++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment ++

Ultramarines

+ Lord of War [18 PL, 3CP, 400pts] +

Roboute Guilliman [18 PL, 3CP, 400pts]: Warlord

++ Total: [114 PL, 11CP, 2000pts] ++

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/22 14:38:11


 
   
 
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