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Just a general question about would an ogre army with just bulls be effective or would it be more effective with a unit of IG?

You need to get mathhammery to figure it out.

Against stuff with low armor saves and toughness? No. Bulls are better.

Against stuff with high armor saves and toughness? Yes. Their GW will allow them to more reliably wound.

For instance, a Bull vs. an IG. Bull has 4+ to wound and 6+ to save. IG has 2+ to wound and 6+ to Parry. Which would easily cover the higher costs of IG.

You can also take a magic standard.

well quick glance says yes 13 pts more than ogres gets you heavy armor, great weapon, and access to magic standard isn't bad.

I think its always worth it to have a unit of IG, 8 or so should be good. They can bring a bigger punch than bulls in case ironblasters arent killing the big things

Bluewulf wrote:well quick glance says yes 13 pts more than ogres gets you heavy armor, great weapon, and access to magic standard isn't bad.

Access to magic standard aside, isnt 13 points for GW and HA a pretty bad deal in general?

Meaning bulls should be the norm with ironguts taking the supportive role (if even that)

After using them in 3 games now I have to say that the extra investment paid off. Don't forget you also get 1 more point of leadership for that extra 13 points...and in ogres any bump in LD is appreciated. I usually throw the banner of discipline on them to bump them even higher. However, I do run more bulls to at least have one relatively large unit to absorb damage as it gets across the field. If you already have a bunch of bulls and are thinking about purchasing IG you may want to run some proxies in a friendly game to see how they match your playstyle. They will likely not be to everyone's taste due to the ASL.

However, I do run more bulls to at least have one relatively large unit to absorb damage as it gets across the field.

This is how I tend to see it also. You need a certain amount of wounds in your ogre army to start with and its more convenient to go around getting them using bulls.

So while I am not saying that an army has no place for ironguts, I am saying that I dont think a 13p tradeoff makes bulls anywhere near obsolete.

Thanks guys. Reason I asked was k had my first ogre game with my ogres 2.5k against tk and my ig ran into a unit of flaming halberd tomb guard so that sort of sucked haha the bulls helped but ya lost a lot of ig.

I was impressed how they did manage to clobber a few wounds off a sphinx.

But ya I have 10 as is and I'll keep running them since I like how they look.
Also them being str 7 is pretty nice too with magics and all.

But ya I wouldn't mind hearing any other comments on this topic so keep it comming

IG aren't more defensive. Bulls have LA and are going to be running Ironfists unless you're crazy. So they have the same armor save.

The only differences are:

-Bulls = Parry save in melee
-IG +1 LD
-IG +2 S in melee
-IG +50 pt magic standard (for 1 unit)
-IG cost 11 more pts (37% more)

There really isn't that much of a difference. For every 3 IG you could have had another Bull instead. And that Bull has a 6+ ward most times. IG got a lot more strength and can invalidate armor a lot easier (Chaos Armor is completely negated). But again, if you're not fighting something with an armor save or high toughness, they are inferior to standard Bulls.

You mentioned fighting vs. Tomb Guards, IG would be better vs. them as they got T4 and you go from 50% chance to wound with 6/6 save to a 67% chance to wound with a 0/6+ save.

True the ig did more damage those gw and the stomps really helped.

The restriction to only having 1 magic banner on one unit of ig makes it a little hardto get flaming attacks in without a fire belly.

I think IG are good, just not good enough to warrent taking them to the exclusion of Bulls.

Bulls are much more survivable, they have the same armor and a parry on top of it. the parry alone means they will last much longer against things with great weapons or better.

The ready access to str buffs also makes Bulls more attractive, buffing IG str is pretty pointless against all but the biggest gribblies.

Bulls also bring more wounds to the party, which means they will maintain their damage output longer.

a unit of 9 Bulls is 288 points(with ironfists) For the same points, you can get 6 ironguts(with enough change for full command)


9 Bulls has 18 Str4 attacks, 5+ armor, 6+ parry, and can take 11 wounds before they lose attacks.

IGs have 19 Str6 ASL attacks, 5+ armor, and can take 2 wounds before they lose attacks.

Given that ogres will be going after everyone except lizardmen and GW wielders, they will be taking all their casualities before they swing.


Against, lets say, 40 Halberdiers in Horde formation. Halberdiers get 8 files to fight(vs 3 40mm bases, 8 20mm get to be Btb and corner to corner) thats 25 attacks(with champion) roughly 13 hits(rounding up) and 6 wounds.

Now the ogres get saves. Both get a 6+ armor, and the bulls get 6+ parry. 1 saved by armor and 5 wounds go through. Ironguts take 5 wounds. Bulls wil save an additional .8333 wounds. For a total of 1.8333 wounds saved, round up to 2. Bulls take 4 wounds, Ironguts take 5.

Now the ogres get to swing. Bulls have their full 18 attacks, Ironguts have 16. Bulls get 9 hits, Ironguts get 8. Bulls get 6 wounds, Ironguts get 7. Bulls kill 6 Halberdiers, IGs kill 7.

Combat resolution. Bulls have 7 total(6 kills, 1 rank), Ironguts have 8(7 kills, banner), Halberdiers have 6 vs the Bulls, and 7 vs the Ironguts.

Both ogre units have won by one.

But thats not the whole story. the Ironguts have lost 3 attacks, their only rank, and only have 1 wound seperating them from losing a 2nd member and 3 more attacks.

The bulls on the other hand have lost no attacks, have 7 more wounds before they will, and still retain a rank. They can comfortably still go whacking on the enemy. The Ironguts have to pick their combats carefully.




I think ironguts are best as a support unit used to take on high toughness and low armor save enemies, but while supported by bulls.

low armor save? They got 6 str, they invalidate HA+shield completely.

But hypotheticals are only as good as that hypothetical. There are a bajillions of different fight combinations, of which some the IG will be better suited and some less suited.

Sounds solid.

Makes me happy that I have spare bulls

DukeRustfield wrote:low armor save? They got 6 str, they invalidate HA+shield completely.

But hypotheticals are only as good as that hypothetical. There are a bajillions of different fight combinations, of which some the IG will be better suited and some less suited.

Low armor save is one with a low value, 3+, 2+, 1+. as opposed to a high armor save, 5+, 6+...

I think GT has a solid point in his post. For an mostly aggressive army like ogres, wounds are needed to get in and finish the job.

Ill see about writing up a list with several bull units supported by fangs ironblaster and leadies and see how that goes.

Even though bulls should form the core, you might not need several units of bulls though. Ogres take a lot of space on the board, there fore one bigger unit and a smaller unit might easily suffice.

Leadbelchers are also be a good supporting unit for the basic bulls. Ironblasters are pretty crazy, take 2

Haha I only have 1 blaster for now it will be a while before i get another.

But ya a larger unit of bulls would be fun I think maybe a small unit of IG just for flank charges and smashy smashy.

For flanking and random what not, pick leadbelchers over iron guts. They bash like ogres but also shoot random guys and diverters.

True that. Only down side is i have twice as many IG than I do leadies. But we will see how the next few games go.

Leads also are specials and need LOS and aren't going to get off a ton of shots. And when they are engaged, they're just expensive and not-as-good Bulls.

I have had luck with my leadies they usually just shoot at the first unit of scouts they see and blast em to shreds.

But ya they are not excellent in combat but the shooting is pretty nice to be honest makes them quite a threat imo.

The utility they provide for the small bump in the price is pretty sweet since being able to remove diverters is extremely valuable. In combat they are still ogres, decent strength, toughness and bucketful of attacks. Shooty units add so much depth into an ogre army... to take it further, I find the added shootiness pretty wacky. Ogres should not be able to build a gunline with multiple cannons/mortars supported by belchers

But to each his own, if you tried them out and didnt fit, leave them on the shelf

I think point for point, Ogres are better than Iron Guts, but only in really large units.
8 Ironguts will wreck face against a lot of opponents.
An equal point value of Ogres will often struggle to get the kills.
For bulls, I go either 6 or 12 strong. 6 being a cheap support unit, with 12 or more forming up a battle bus, often with a character or two.
Iron guts, at 364 for 8 with standard and musician they kill.

As for Leadbelchers, I find that you want lots of them. A few D6 of shots isn't great. 15D6 is awesome.
I've been running my 7 and 8 man blocks for awhile, and the shooting power they bring you just can't underestimate.

I think with bulls vs Ironguts vs Leadbelchers really depends on the whole army build.
My big bull and 8 man iron gut units usually do fine in combat without any magic support. That leaves only 2 units that really need a buff; one has a stubborn slaughtermaster in it, the other does not.
So when push comes to shove, I've have 1 unit on the table that NEEDS a buff to go off, letting magic complement my combat very effectively.

In a bull heavy army with more mid-sized less hitty units, I think you are counting a lot more on your magic phase to make your ogres go from average to great.

-Matt

Sounds good.
With that all said I wouldn't mind 2 7 man leady units for the purpose of being able to shoot two targets.
This does give me some good ideas for some list options thanks Matt

The magic banner ability makes IG worth it - I usually take the fire banner - if you run up against Ethereals, anything with regen etc.

It's horses for courses really.

Flaming banner doesn't give you magical attacks.

Ya flaming just makes sure when you punch the hydra in the teeth that it wont get up after

Still IG with flaming against a hydra.

Dont vc have a banner that make the attacks magical and flaming?

"Flaming banner doesn't give you magical attacks. "

Really?

Oh well don't tell my oponents... but the principle still holds that the access to a magical banner makes IG worth it... need to look for a different banner....

Standard of discipline and a slaughter master for ld 9 bubble.