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Hey guys,

Just reading a thread RE: commission painters who have acted in a shonky fashion and ruining the game for the rest of us, but its made me remember an awkward situation that I experienced earlier this year.

I had a client contact me with a medium-ish sized force of Kislev troops. Job was quoted at $600ish. Price agreed and all that good stuff.
Client dropped off miniatures, and paid 1/3rd deposit to begin with.
He had previously requested if it was possible to 'break it up' and hand back the models as a group of units were done - i guess in an effort to make it a little easier on the wallet. We all know a broken up payment is much easier to come up with than a lump sum

ANYWAYS!

So I finished the first round, sent off pictures for his approval. Got client approval. Requested meet up.
No response.
About a week of sustained contact and no response.
I decided the client must be busy, so I continued with the force, completing the subsequent group of units.
Again, I attempted to contact him and got no response.

At this point I figured something was up and 'downed tools' (and by downed tools I totally suggest that a paint brush is a trade tool ) until I got a response to save myself from further wasting of time should this all end up pear shaped.

About a month later, I got a response asking for a meet up. Had our meet up, gave him the models thus far and received the equivalent payment. Ended up finishing the commission no worries!

So my question to our friendly local commission painters is; have you ever had a similar situation? What did you do? How did you react? Is this common?

Cheers guys! Share stories!

~Ghost

I couldn't say.

It is intresting to hear a story where the client was the source of the trouble.

I think that when someone pays to have models worked on they expect everything on their terms and their schedule. If they are a month late on the pickup its "ok" but if you're a week behind and don't have them done then they start slandering your name on the boards.

Not saying its right, but I'm guessing its what happens.

Could be that the person can't afford to pay for the job when the time comes. My friend's dad owns a garage and it's not unheard of for someone to bring a car for an MOT and never come back.

I gave a squad of 5 old school Grey Knight termies to a commision painter once, about ten years ago. I stopped going to the store he frequented and they closed. Don't know what ever happend to em, and don't really care... but i'd have liked to see em.

I had a once had a commision to paint up about 100 SoB's with vehicles, etc. WE came to an agreement on the price and he sent me the models, but the %50 up front din't arrive. I called him and left a message that I hadn't recieved payment & wouldn't be starting on them until I did. About a week later, he calls me and asks if I accept PayPal, which I do. He assured me that I should recieve notification that payment had been made any day now. 2 weeks later and nothing. This went on for almost 3 months, all the while his SoB army is sitting in the box. Finally sick of this, I called once again and left him another message saying that he should just send me the money needed to return the army, as it had become pretty clear that he wasn't going to pay. No reply. I emailed him a few days later, and still got nothing. This ended up dragging out for 3 more months, complete with his phone being shut off. I contacted my attorney at this point who advised me to 'sit on them and see what happens'. That was almost 10 years ago, I ended up painting them anyway, and I figure if he ever decides to get ahold of me, and pay up, I'll be happy to send them his way!

Another guy actually tried to stiff me on a commision once. He ended up losing a lawsuit and his army (which I sold on ebay with a starting bid that was equal to the commision still owed). It pays to keep emails /records!

J'santai Khan wrote:I had a once had a commision to paint up about 100 SoB's with vehicles, etc. WE came to an agreement on the price and he sent me the models, but the %50 up front din't arrive. I called him and left a message that I hadn't recieved payment & wouldn't be starting on them until I did. About a week later, he calls me and asks if I accept PayPal, which I do. He assured me that I should recieve notification that payment had been made any day now. 2 weeks later and nothing. This went on for almost 3 months, all the while his SoB army is sitting in the box. Finally sick of this, I called once again and left him another message saying that he should just send me the money needed to return the army, as it had become pretty clear that he wasn't going to pay. No reply. I emailed him a few days later, and still got nothing. This ended up dragging out for 3 more months, complete with his phone being shut off. I contacted my attorney at this point who advised me to 'sit on them and see what happens'. That was almost 10 years ago, I ended up painting them anyway, and I figure if he ever decides to get ahold of me, and pay up, I'll be happy to send them his way!

Another guy actually tried to stiff me on a commision once. He ended up losing a lawsuit and his army (which I sold on ebay with a starting bid that was equal to the commision still owed). It pays to keep emails /records!

Outstanding story! And I love that lawsuits actually work in the 'good guys' ' favour for once!

~Ghost

I always take the full ammount of the job up front to avoid any problems in the future. It has thus far, kept me from having any problems.

If someone who had paid completely dropped off all contact, I would keep all of their items in trust for them for at least a year. After that, storing things may not be convenient.

Wow, hard to believe this happens to you guys very often considering the retail value of minis today.

I suspect you've got the same responsibilities as any other business that accepts peoples items to provide a service. Every dry cleaning service I've used has a nice big sign saying they're not responsible for items left after X number of days.

Perhaps seeking legal guidance in your particular state + a disclaimer in your contract for how long you hold onto completed commissions prior to seeking alternate methods for payment for your services .

Gamble wrote:Wow, hard to believe this happens to you guys very often considering the retail value of minis today.

I suspect you've got the same responsibilities as any other business that accepts peoples items to provide a service. Every dry cleaning service I've used has a nice big sign saying they're not responsible for items left after X number of days.

Perhaps seeking legal guidance in your particular state + a disclaimer in your contract for how long you hold onto completed commissions prior to seeking alternate methods for payment for your services .

It doesn't happen very often, actually. The vast majority of clients I've had over the years have been outstanding, and most of them end up being repeat clients.

As far as taking %100 up front goes, I've already got your minis, as well as half the money for them, before I start anything. That's good enough for me. Besides, demanding the minis & all of the money up front does look a little fishy to most people. BUt, hey, whatever works for you!

Howard A Treesong wrote:Could be that the person can't afford to pay for the job when the time comes. My friend's dad owns a garage and it's not unheard of for someone to bring a car for an MOT and never come back.

People bring cars to your dad to get a Mark of Tzeentch?

J'santai Khan wrote:

Gamble wrote:Wow, hard to believe this happens to you guys very often considering the retail value of minis today.

I suspect you've got the same responsibilities as any other business that accepts peoples items to provide a service. Every dry cleaning service I've used has a nice big sign saying they're not responsible for items left after X number of days.

Perhaps seeking legal guidance in your particular state + a disclaimer in your contract for how long you hold onto completed commissions prior to seeking alternate methods for payment for your services .

It doesn't happen very often, actually. The vast majority of clients I've had over the years have been outstanding, and most of them end up being repeat clients.

As far as taking %100 up front goes, I've already got your minis, as well as half the money for them, before I start anything. That's good enough for me. Besides, demanding the minis & all of the money up front does look a little fishy to most people. BUt, hey, whatever works for you!

This is the only time its happened to me - hence why I was asking others if they have had a similar issue. It puts people in an awkward position :S

As for the 100% cash deposit... I don't feel it's necessary.
Minis AND a 50% deposit makes sure that people are serious. And if they do the dodgy, you can almost certainly recoup the funds (and a little extra) back with the resale value

~Ghost

I think holding them for a year in good faith is fair.

Its best to stay in communication with your Commission Painter. Even if something prevents you from being able to afford to finish paying once the job is done... its better to appeal to a painter's understanding rather than to "disappear".

1st I'd find out how long it takes before property becomes legally abandoned in your locality. Keep the models safe and stored for at least that long. After that, if you've made every good faith effort to reach the client and they haven't responded, well, they're yours now, so do with them what you want.

I think the key would be, if you're paying someone to paint models for you, and something comes up, like, you're suddenly short of money, communicate with them! I'm sure most people would be willing to put the project on hold, or otherwise negotiate a resolution that leaves everyone happy.

Saldiven wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:Could be that the person can't afford to pay for the job when the time comes. My friend's dad owns a garage and it's not unheard of for someone to bring a car for an MOT and never come back.

People bring cars to your dad to get a Mark of Tzeentch?

I thought this, too (actually still can't figure out what it really stands for)

I would Never send 100% funds and models upfront... but I think models + 50% is perfectly reasonable most of the time. As said above, from the commission painter's side, they should easily be able to recoup the final 50% with the models themselves, if it came to that!

RiTides wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:Could be that the person can't afford to pay for the job when the time comes. My friend's dad owns a garage and it's not unheard of for someone to bring a car for an MOT and never come back.

People bring cars to your dad to get a Mark of Tzeentch?

I thought this, too (actually still can't figure out what it really stands for)

I would Never send 100% funds and models upfront... but I think models + 50% is perfectly reasonable most of the time. As said above, from the commission painter's side, they should easily be able to recoup the final 50% with the models themselves, if it came to that!

I'm sure you have an american equivalent. Every year your car has to be checked by a garage to pass various requirements including road worthiness, you get an MOT certificate (Ministry of Transport)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOT_test

The test is about £45 and if you fail you have a few days in which to make the necessary repairs. Typically you would arrange that the garage will make the test and then make any repairs required at the same time to bring it up to the standard required to pass.

As I said, with my friend they have had the odd occasion when people have dropped a car off and simply never come back.

Ah, thanks for explaining that

Howard A Treesong wrote:

RiTides wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:Could be that the person can't afford to pay for the job when the time comes. My friend's dad owns a garage and it's not unheard of for someone to bring a car for an MOT and never come back.

People bring cars to your dad to get a Mark of Tzeentch?

I thought this, too (actually still can't figure out what it really stands for)

I would Never send 100% funds and models upfront... but I think models + 50% is perfectly reasonable most of the time. As said above, from the commission painter's side, they should easily be able to recoup the final 50% with the models themselves, if it came to that!

I'm sure you have an american equivalent. Every year your car has to be checked by a garage to pass various requirements including road worthiness, you get an MOT certificate (Ministry of Transport)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOT_test

The test is about £45 and if you fail you have a few days in which to make the necessary repairs. Typically you would arrange that the garage will make the test and then make any repairs required at the same time to bring it up to the standard required to pass.

As I said, with my friend they have had the odd occasion when people have dropped a car off and simply never come back.

We do. We call it an Inspection, but it's a state run thing, not federal and not all states do it.

I've had this happen before.

Except that I was paid 100% in advance. I was commission to paint a large Warhammer 40,00 Army, quote was at around $600 and he had already paid me $350 to buy my own army.

Anyways, I worked on the army giving him weekly update and when I finished he said he was happy with everything. I than emailed him for a return address and never got a response. I tried every other week and finally after 2 months, he told me where to ship them. I'm guessing since this was around the holiday season, he probably didn't want his wife to see ^_^

Question guys, I've been thinking of working on getting into the commission business, but I'm rather confused on something.

If you take a job to paint an army, take the figures, paint a couple for approval, the proceed on, finish up then ask for payment and they refuse and demand there stuff back, how does that legally work?

If as a painter your screwed, I would just dump everything in superclean and acetone and make them do clean up duty.

What you need is a contract for the client to sign.
Make sure it details costs, time scales, payment schedules, and what happens in the event of non-payment of the final fee.
Personally, If I'd taken a commission and it wasn't paid for, I'm keeping the models until the client ponies up the cash, and I'd make sure he knew in advance that was going to happen.

marv335 wrote:What you need is a contract for the client to sign.
Make sure it details costs, time scales, payment schedules, and what happens in the event of non-payment of the final fee.
Personally, If I'd taken a commission and it wasn't paid for, I'm keeping the models until the client ponies up the cash, and I'd make sure he knew in advance that was going to happen.

This might depend on the country you live in, but in most countries this is not needed. If you have your email logs that define the situation clearly it will be enough and will be considered to be a contract.

Concerning the OP's question. As someone mentioned, just check for the regulated holding time. As long as you have done your part in trying to contact the customer, the ownership will be switched to you after a certain time.

I didn't mean "Need" in a legal sense, it's a good business idea because then everyone knows exactly where they stand.

In that case I fully agree, I believe it to add additional commitment from the customers point to honor the deals. Ppl hold signing papers in a high regard for some reason.

Necroshea wrote:Question guys, I've been thinking of working on getting into the commission business, but I'm rather confused on something.

If you take a job to paint an army, take the figures, paint a couple for approval, the proceed on, finish up then ask for payment and they refuse and demand there stuff back, how does that legally work?

If as a painter your screwed, I would just dump everything in superclean and acetone and make them do clean up duty.

I've had this happen; or rather I've taken deposit and model cost, done the work and then the client's been unable to make the final payment.

I ebay'd the models, kept the deposit by agreement with the client as a 'sorry it's gone pear shaped'.

Generally some or all of the deposit is retained as well as the completed work are retained for sale. Of course, as most works are custom tailored to individual clients, it's far preferable to give the client a chance to sort themselves out, but sometimes this just can't or won't happen. You have to bear in mind that the value of the work done by far exceeds the value of the models themselves and most of us (commission painters) work 'in arrears', meaning we rely on the money coming in reasonably promptly at the end of a job to pay bills. I have a whole bunch of 2nd edition marines I've collected together for a client that's long since lost contact, not such a problem as unpaid work.

winterdyne wrote:

Necroshea wrote:Question guys, I've been thinking of working on getting into the commission business, but I'm rather confused on something.

If you take a job to paint an army, take the figures, paint a couple for approval, the proceed on, finish up then ask for payment and they refuse and demand there stuff back, how does that legally work?

If as a painter your screwed, I would just dump everything in superclean and acetone and make them do clean up duty.

I've had this happen; or rather I've taken deposit and model cost, done the work and then the client's been unable to make the final payment.

I ebay'd the models, kept the deposit by agreement with the client as a 'sorry it's gone pear shaped'.

Generally some or all of the deposit is retained as well as the completed work are retained for sale. Of course, as most works are custom tailored to individual clients, it's far preferable to give the client a chance to sort themselves out, but sometimes this just can't or won't happen. You have to bear in mind that the value of the work done by far exceeds the value of the models themselves and most of us (commission painters) work 'in arrears', meaning we rely on the money coming in reasonably promptly at the end of a job to pay bills. I have a whole bunch of 2nd edition marines I've collected together for a client that's long since lost contact, not such a problem as unpaid work.

Interesting. This leads me to a new question; what do you guys do if business is 'slow' or you need that extra bit of work to keep everything afloat?
I personally buy up a couple of popular kits, paint em up and sell them on ebay.

What do other people do?

~Ghost

Um, I've not been out of work for 2 years now. I usually have a queue ahead of between 6 and 12 months' work for myself, and usually 3-6 months' work queued for at least one other painter, if not 2.

How good of a painter do you generally need to be to delve into commission painting? I have people compliment my figures ever so often, but I'm no golden deamon winner. Also, when I see people winning local painting competitions, they use painting techniques that I think make the fig look ugly and I never use.

You don't need to be a demon winner, but you need to produce consistent results that people don't mind paying for. You also need to be absolutely clear on how your time is spent, and open to communication at all times with your clients. Customer service is really paramount; I get a fair whack of business simply because I'm approachable and listen to what the client wants. If it's not a great idea, I always say so, and explain why and what I'd do instead.

How much money you'll make is down to how fast you are; for example going rate is about £60 for a single character model done to a high end tabletop (GW cabinet) level. For the time put in, it's pretty hard to make a high hourly rate without getting into very high end work, where collectors are paying for a premium product. At that sort of level though, you're basically working at Golden Demon contender level.

What's the going rate on tabletop standard? While we're at it how many standard are there? Low tabletop, high tabletop, showcase?