40k vs. Dune

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**Tadashi**

A lot of people compare Dune and Warhammer 40,000. I'll admit their are similarities, but in my opinion the 40k universe is more epic (not to mention more heroic) than Dune. In military terms, the Imperium would easily crush the Empire of Dune with no trouble at all.

**Namica**

In War, of course 40k would win, it's so over the top that generally no other sci-fi setting could win.

As a narrative, there is no comparison, Dune wins simply because it's well thought out and well written while WH40K is a hodgepodge of "Wouldn't it be awesome if...!"

Also, how in the hell is 40K realistic, at -all-? Last I remember, warp based super technology, space fungus that lives and makes guns that work based on psychic ability, space zombies etc... weren't exactly real. At least Dune had realistic reasoning for everything going on, wh40k is just rule of cool. Have you even read Dune?

**Tadashi**

What is magic but simply science and technology we do not yet understand? If I went back to the Stone Age wearing artificer armor with a bolt pistol and a power sword, they would think I was a god with the ability to kill with 'thunder' (bolt pistol) and 'lightning sword' (power weapons crackle with energy, remember?).

**Zweischneid**

40K is alot more over-the-top, but that doesn't mean there's no concept of heroism in Dune.

Wikipedia wrote:
Heroism

I am showing you the superhero syndrome and your own participation in it.
—Frank Herbert

Throughout Paul's rise to superhuman status, he follows a plotline common to many stories describing the birth of a hero. He has unfortunate circumstances forced onto him. After a long period of hardship and exile, he confronts and defeats the source of evil in his tale. As such, Dune is representative of a general trend beginning in 1960s American science fiction in that it features a character who attains godlike status through scientific means. Eventually, Paul Atreides gains a level of omniscience which allows him to take over the planet and the galaxy, and causing the Fremen of Arrakis to worship him like a god. Author Frank Herbert said in 1979, "The bottom line of the Dune trilogy is: beware of heroes. Much better [to] rely on your own judgment, and your own mistakes." He wrote in 1985, "Dune was aimed at this whole idea of the infallible leader because my view of history says that mistakes made by a leader (or made in a leader's name) are amplified by the numbers who follow without question."

Juan A. Prieto-Pablos says Herbert achieves a new typology with Paul's superpowers, differentiating the heroes of Dune from earlier heroes such as Superman, van Vogt's Gilbert Gosseyn and Henry Kuttner's telepaths. Unlike previous superheroes who acquire their powers suddenly and accidentally, Paul's are the result of "painful and slow personal progress." And unlike other superheroes of the 1960s—who are the exception among ordinary people in their respective worlds—Herbert's characters grow their powers through "the application of mystical philosophies and techniques." For Herbert, the ordinary person can develop incredible fighting skills (Fremen, Ginaz swordsmen and Sardaukar) or mental abilities (Bene Gesserit, Mentats, Spacing Guild Navigators).

An even better example of comparing heroism is the DC Comics character, Batman. In his pre-1960's stages and beginning in the 1980's, Batman's origin was that of a man with a tragic background who took a self-determined route in order to set events straight and reconcile his past. He employs scientific and mystical techniques to acquire power over his self-perceived weakness. Batman is also held in high regard by the population of Gotham City in a way that they rely on him in an almost spirit-like capacity, much like the Fremen do towards Paul Atreides.

**Tadashi**

I never said there was no heroism in Dune. I simply stated that heroes are more common in 40k.

**Zweischneid**

Tadashi wrote:I never said there was no heroism in Dune. I simply stated that heroes are more common in 40k.

True. But that is in part because Dune (at least originally) is precipated upon the "hero's journey" of a single character. Much like, say, Lord of the Rings. It follows the transformative path of one hero through a fictional universe ultimately created by the author just for the purpose of being thus transformed.

40K in contrast is inherently static. It doesn't change and is not meant to change. It is more a stage or setting for potentially innumerous stories, which may be more or less heroic, dramatic, comedic, whatever you like, but that ultimately do not transform the fundamentals of the fictional universe.

**Namica**

Tadashi wrote:What is magic but simply science and technology we do not yet understand? If I went back to the Stone Age wearing artificer armor with a bolt pistol and a power sword, they would think I was a god with the ability to kill with 'thunder' (bolt pistol) and 'lightning sword' (power weapons crackle with energy, remember?).

My point is that Dune takes the time to explain their sci-fi stuff.

40K just throws it in. Calling 40K more realistic is just... pants on head slowed.

**Tadashi**

Modern physics assumes parallel realities can exist, and not even psychology can completely define the limits of sentience and of imagination. As for technology, fluff indicates that during the Dark Age of Technology, for the first and last time in history, mankind rivaled the Eldar in technological terms. At that point in time, Eldar technology is describes as 'bordering on magic'.

**Namica**

Tadashi wrote:Modern physics assumes parallel realities can exist, and not even psychology can completely define the limits of sentience and of imagination. As for technology, fluff indicates that during the Dark Age of Technology, for the first and last time in history, mankind rivaled the Eldar in technological terms. At that point in time, Eldar technology is describes as 'bordering on magic'.

You're missing the point. You called one setting more realistic, despite it relying heavily on magical happenings and seldom ever explains itself, and alot of times when it does, it explains via "demons did it". Dune takes the time to explain itself and try to make things realistic, WH40K doesn't give a damn about realism, it's not supposed to, and it's not a bad thing.

And you really can't compare the two settings. They have two hugely different settings, themes, and purposes. Being "in space" isn't means enough for comparison. WH40K is a setting all about War, so of course it has more "heroes" and "epic moments" in relation to war. Not to mention it's just plain larger and has had the chance to have many more hero types. Dune has few comparative heroes, but even then they're quite epic (like Ggurney Halleck). The big difference between the "epic" characters of 40k and those of Dune, is that those in Dune are defined on more levels than how big their magic psychic powers are, or how big their muscles are. 40K is a mostly one dimensional setting, it's hard to argue that point. Characters are only fleshed out past how big their guns are in the Black Library works, which are, IMO, mostly poorly written tripe.

**Campbell1004**

I believe Dune is better.

Such a great narrative with great scenes, landscapes, characters and its so interesting. I must have bought 4 or 5 copies in paperback over the last 7 years because I would move and lose my copy. I'm upset I don't have one here at school, I want to get back into it.

Dune minis would be so freakin' sweet!

Back on topic; Dune is much more thought out and has a lot more love placed into it by Mr. Herbert than 40k does, at all. 40k is like a car that 5 people are making and everyone has their own vision of what cool is, so they all throw their stuff onto the car and what comes out is a giant mess that they have to sort through to get it right. Dune is just one man's vision, an amazing vision that is so streamlined and epic that you get caught up in it and you know someone isn't going to ruin the characters that you come to love with a new codex or another novel. I have not found a universe that is the result of collaboration that I really and truly enjoy to immerse myself in.

Dune has pyscho-science and mysticism and philosophy. It isn't gore-porn or endless scenes of battle. The characters are not bred for battle, they have emotions and can connect with the reader. Can you connect with a seven foot tall space marine with a rifle that shoots mini-nukes and a sword that is a chainsaw? No, you cannot. You can enjoy the imagine, but in terms of depth and emotion you can side with the characters in Dune.

It's like comparing The Gamer with Lawrence of Arabia. One you can sit there and enjoy, the other you can sit there and lose yourself.

**Negator80**

The 40k universe is fairly stupid, shallow, and wreaks of the imaginative ability of prepubescent boys.

It's hard NOT to find other scifi literature that is more realistic.

**King Pariah**

Dune = Shakespearean plays

40k = The torrent of assaulting offending acts that occurred in the arenas of Rome

Both are enjoyable, just one actually has taste and depth whereas the other amounts to little more than pleasurable decadence.

**Marzillius**

The only sci-fi universe I can imagine beating 40k is Supreme Commander.

**xxmatt85**

Stupid question what is Dune?

**Hox**

Dune and the couple subsequent books were beyond fantastic as well as all the prequels written by his son. I feel that the books pushed into ridiculousness when the fishspeakers (I think thats the name, its been forever) and other bizarre additions appeared. The house books and the butlerian jihad/machine books were amazing. I think the fact that herbert created a living breathing world with a completely unique and amazing economy and system of government as well as wrote enough notes on his created universe that his son was able to write like 10 or some ridiculous amount of books is amazing. He also didnt contradict himself at every turn and create a world of testosterone fueled supersoldiers who fight eachother. In the grim dark future of 40k, there is only war. In the universe of dune, there is a living, breathing existence.

I will never care what brother captain generic roman name said or did. I will never take the slightest bit of interest in why everything in WH40K feels the need to kill everything else. I will never get why with their awesome weapons they dont just crack planets instead of landing on them and engaging in "epic battle". Something that will stick with me for the rest of my life however are the characters in dune. Specifically the relationship between serena butler and erasmus (I once again believe those are the names). There is no deeper connection to WH fluff because thats just what it is, fluff.

**Ascalam**

Dune

I want Bene Geserit witches as a unit

Also sandworm-riding desert loonies that can kill you just by telling you their leader's name

**Tadashi**

Campbell1004 wrote:I believe Dune is better.

Such a great narrative with great scenes, landscapes, characters and its so interesting. I must have bought 4 or 5 copies in paperback over the last 7 years because I would move and lose my copy. I'm upset I don't have one here at school, I want to get back into it.

Dune minis would be so freakin' sweet!

Back on topic; Dune is much more thought out and has a lot more love placed into it by Mr. Herbert than 40k does, at all. 40k is like a car that 5 people are making and everyone has their own vision of what cool is, so they all throw their stuff onto the car and what comes out is a giant mess that they have to sort through to get it right. Dune is just one man's vision, an amazing vision that is so streamlined and epic that you get caught up in it and you know someone isn't going to ruin the characters that you come to love with a new codex or another novel. I have not found a universe that is the result of collaboration that I really and truly enjoy to immerse myself in.

Dune has pyscho-science and mysticism and philosophy. It isn't gore-porn or endless scenes of battle. The characters are not bred for battle, they have emotions and can connect with the reader. Can you connect with a seven foot tall space marine with a rifle that shoots mini-nukes and a sword that is a chainsaw? No, you cannot. You can enjoy the imagine, but in terms of depth and emotion you can side with the characters in Dune.

It's like comparing The Gamer with Lawrence of Arabia. One you can sit there and enjoy, the other you can sit there and lose yourself.

Call me shallow, but I can actually connect with Astartes better than the characters of Dune.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

King Pariah wrote:Dune = Shakespearean plays

40k = The torrent of assaulting offending acts that occurred in the arenas of Rome

Both are enjoyable, just one actually has taste and depth whereas the other amounts to little more than pleasurable decadence.

I'd rather watch Roman gladiators kill each other rather than Shakespeare.

**Cerebrium**

40k is more realistic than Dune? Really?

I have no idea what you're reading, but it's certainly not what I'm seeing.

**Namica**

Call me shallow, but I can actually connect with Astartes better than the characters of Dune.

Anyone who thinks that 40K is more realistic than Dune, who believes they can connect better with genetically altered super soldiers who live only for war, than characters that have been written from many perspectives and were written for the sake of being connectable and human, is ENORMOUSLY shallow, not to mention fooling themselves. I can't help but think you haven't even read Dune, or at least did little more than breeze through it.

**Tadashi**

Read it once, got bored, never tried to follow the story past the first book. On the other hand, 40k...glorious battle...

**2500kgm3**

Dune is about political intrigue at its finest.

Nearly half of the book is written in italics to show us what the characters actually think in contrast to what they are saying, for god's sake!

The book is about people outsmarting their enemies who think they are the ones who are outsmarting the heroes. It is about plans, within plans, within other plans. I'ts brilliant.

40k is about action, and it does action well, but it can't even get close to Dune in character development.

And, as a bonus, I found this:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/249238.page

**Cerebrium**

That's pretty cool! I know someone who's making a House Harkonnen-themed Dark Eldar army too.

**Hox**

Tadashi wrote:Read it once, got bored, never tried to follow the story past the first book. On the other hand, 40k...glorious battle...

You cant compare the two then. The series goes forwards but also 6 books backwards. There is an obscene amount of things you have no idea about. It would be like me reading an ork codex and saying "everything in 40k is dumb, Im not interested anymore". You know such a tiny amount of what exists in the universe of dune.

You've never read about the cymeks killing and enslaving billions of people, only to be enslaved themselves. You dont know that vorian atredies is the son of a cymek titan. You dont know the reasoning behind almost every aspect of the dune books. There is no glorious battle in dune because it is realistic. Loved ones and friends can be killed and taken. There is no space marines. The humans are real and they do very real things and make very real, hard decisions. Maybe its because I'm in the navy but glorifying death in battle is kind of a sick thing to do. Nobody wants to watch a friend die.

**CuddlySquig**

Tadashi wrote: I'll admit their are similarities, but in my opinion the 40k universe is more realistic and ultimately more epic (not to mention more heroic) than Dune.

I've never read any of the Dune books. Yeah, I know. But the 40kaverse being MORE REALISTIC than something?

**Campbell1004**

That thread is making me go into seizure... Dear God, Im in heaven.

**Uhlan**

Both universes are ridiculously unrealistic technologically. Both rely heavily on Psychic power as a plot line so, the only thing we are left with worth comparing are the lives that live within them. How realistic are they? Are they caricatures?

Dune I feel I can stack with the Lord of the Rings (my personal favorite) comfortably as a literary work. The characters in both seem realistic enough as people. Some have abilities we can't begin to speculate on, but they are tangible to some extent.

40k the game is decidedly not a literary work, yet many of the novels are good and the plot lines contain enough character realism so that we might at least relate to them.

The argument then is what is the better written story. I'd have to give the nod to Dune in this case.

**Hox**

This thread has prompted me to go look through my enormous library for all these books and read them again.

**Eilif**

Tadashi wrote:A lot of people compare Dune and Warhammer 40,000. I'll admit their are similarities, but in my opinion the 40k universe is more realistic and ultimately more epic (not to mention more heroic) than Dune. In military terms, the Imperium would easily crush the Empire of Dune with no trouble at all.

These kind of questions are pretty pointless unless you really narrow down what criteria you're juding by and make those criteria actually mean something.

1) "Realistic"- Sorry, realism has no place in this discussion. The fact that you mention realism in relation to 40k starts the whole issue out in rather rediulous place.

2) Militarily- Yeah, the armies of the imperium would crush dune, but what does that really have to do about which is "better"? Nothing.

3) Epicness or heroicness. Completely depends on what your definition if Heroic or epic-ness (epicosity?) is. Entirely subjetive.

Now as for a better criteria, being that Dune is primarily a series of books, a better comparison of the two universes would be by their literary merit, and Dune wins hands down. I've only read "Dune", but I've read quite a bit of Black Library including some of the better books (Gaunt, Esienhorn, etc) fiction and in my opinion there is no comparison. I really like Esienhorn and many of the other BL books, but the descriptions, prose, language, storyline and charachters of Dune are superior in almost every way.

**Scottywan82**

Wow... Just... wow. Leto II would easily wipe out the Imperium of Man.

**Namica**

Scottywan82 wrote:Wow... Just... wow. Leto II would easily wipe out the Imperium of Man.

Meh, not really. Leto is essentially Eldrad, but instead of killing things with psychic lightning, he does it by ripping -anything- in half while being damn near impervious to any sort of weapon.