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 Jidmah wrote:
The thing is - as you have repeated yourself multiple times over all your last posts - no matter what you shoot at the flier, it will do no more than a couple of wounds.

So, when shooting some of the stronger fliers, a supa-skorcha does 1 wound , another 5 KMK another 6 damage (while dealing the 5-6 damage to themselves), and your entire unit of tank-bustas managed to hit another single rokkit for a grand total of 10 damage.

The storm raven is degraded to BS 4+, flies out of range of all your weapons and still manages to wipe out that unit of tank bustas, a hemlock wraithfighter won't even lose anything.

That's the most efficient we can get. It's up to the player weather it's worth it or not in his exact situation. Sometimes i'm willing to spend 1000 pts worth of ork shooting to kill a 100 pt unit and consider it successful. There are a lot of situations when you need to get things done regardless of 'point efficiency' of the action. It's tactical value might be greater. Especially when it comes to positioning and missions.

 kaiservonhugal wrote:
Would dakka jets help with the flyer problem?

Dakkajets are best at carving up MEQ or other infantry. I wouldn't shoot them at anything over T5. One damage is pretty unexciting.

hollow one wrote:

 kaiservonhugal wrote:
Would dakka jets help with the flyer problem?

Dakkajets are best at carving up MEQ or other infantry. I wouldn't shoot them at anything over T5. One damage is pretty unexciting.

Dakkajet with full bs kills an average of 2 marines out of cover and 1.333 marines in cover. That's not exactly amazing. You're basically paying for the ability to kill those 1-2 marines anywhere you want. That can be handy. But like most ork stuff they look way more empressive than perform.

What about a bastion and icarus LC?

 koooaei wrote:

hollow one wrote:

 kaiservonhugal wrote:
Would dakka jets help with the flyer problem?

Dakkajets are best at carving up MEQ or other infantry. I wouldn't shoot them at anything over T5. One damage is pretty unexciting.

Dakkajet with full bs kills an average of 2 marines out of cover and 1.333 marines in cover. That's not exactly amazing. You're basically paying for the ability to kill those 1-2 marines anywhere you want. That can be handy. But like most ork stuff they look way more empressive than perform.

Aye, you should be bringing the full 6 supa shootas, thats 3 MEQ on average, and shoot clean targets (i.e. out of cover, you have the flexibility with the unit to do so). You'll likely get your points back in two turns of average shooting, and you're very happy they're shooting at it with -1 to hit if it dies instead. Not saying its amazing (maybe I shouldn't have said "carved") but that's where IMO its effective, not vs heavy armour.

Oh right, my bad. 3 meq, 2 in cover.

3 meq per turn is 39 pts. 2 devastator meqs with lazcannons (always in cover) are 76. So, it's not always better to shoot something out of cover. It's really better to shoot...what's better be dead at exact moment of your game.

hollow one wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

hollow one wrote:

 kaiservonhugal wrote:
Would dakka jets help with the flyer problem?

Dakkajets are best at carving up MEQ or other infantry. I wouldn't shoot them at anything over T5. One damage is pretty unexciting.

Dakkajet with full bs kills an average of 2 marines out of cover and 1.333 marines in cover. That's not exactly amazing. You're basically paying for the ability to kill those 1-2 marines anywhere you want. That can be handy. But like most ork stuff they look way more empressive than perform.

Aye, you should be bringing the full 6 supa shootas, thats 3 MEQ on average, and shoot clean targets (i.e. out of cover, you have the flexibility with the unit to do so). You'll likely get your points back in two turns of average shooting, and you're very happy they're shooting at it with -1 to hit if it dies instead. Not saying its amazing (maybe I shouldn't have said "carved") but that's where IMO its effective, not vs heavy armour.

So Dakkajets wouldn't help much, but what about a flyer like the Wazbom Blastajet? Anyone run one in a game yet?

Wazbombs are pretty bad. It's basically 1 KMK at BS5, at best. You can take like 4 KMKs for the price of a wazbomb and hit more and be more durable. Less mobile, granted.

Even though dakkajets are pretty 'meh', wazbombs are in fact much worse.

I'm honestly a little interested in the blitza bommers. Flyers have stupid high move ranges now, so you'll be able to bomb pretty much what you want, and the blitza bommer can dish out up to 10 mortal wounds on 4+s to anything. It'll only get 2x bombing runs, but hell, dakkajets usually don't get more than 2-3 rounds of effective shooting anyways, and I'd probably trust in random mortal wounds than hoping for my enemy to fail saves, especially against a meaty target like custodoes.

And if you could somehow bomb a unit of vehicles of monsters, you could do a ton of damage. Unfortunately, the only unit I know of that's either monsters or vehicles are killa kans.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:


I'm honestly a little interested in the blitza bommers.

I like the bommas quite a lot. As with everything, you need the right targets, but 10 man MEQ squads in cover are fairly common, and against infantry the two bomb profiles are the same. I've actually starting running the Burna more often, as after the first bomb drops, the plane tends to be deep in enemy territory and my opponent really wants to gun it down before it can drop the rest of it's payload. In those scenarios, the Burna Bomma's 50/50 chance for massive explosive conflagration is just too much fun.

I'll try the burna bomber out. Blitza's performance was rather forgettable.

Vs infantry Burna Bommers are as good at bombing as Blitza bommers, and since almost all vehicles are single units blitza bommers aren’t very high-damage against their intended targets. Burna-bommers explode better, and because they’re planes you can keep them away from your lines that’s a good thing. With the Burna having slightly better shooting and typically the same bombing potential plus potentially better explosions, the Blitza bommer seems worse than the burna bommer.

 gnome_idea_what wrote:
Vs infantry Burna Bommers are as good at bombing as Blitza bommers, and since almost all vehicles are single units blitza bommers aren’t very high-damage against their intended targets. Burna-bommers explode better, and because they’re planes you can keep them away from your lines that’s a good thing. With the Burna having slightly better shooting and typically the same bombing potential plus potentially better explosions, the Blitza bommer seems worse than the burna bommer.

Matches my experience as well. 4+ explosions, better shooting and less points make the burna bommer better in every aspect.

The few unit of vehicles left in the game (usually light walkers) are so cheap and easy to kill that it's a waste to drop a bomb on them.

You can use a command point to reroll the blow up die on the burna bomma right?

It is funny that our best flier is the one that explodes the best when it dies

My only thought regarding the burna v the blitza is that the blitza does MWs to anything on 4+, whereas the burna is 5+, and +1 to infantry.

So, my thought was that, generally speaking, the blitza is somewhat more reliable.

I had forgotten about the explodes on a 4+ - pismakron is right, it's kind of funny/sad that the best thing about them is that they blow up more easily.

pismakron wrote:
You can use a command point to reroll the blow up die on the burna bomma right?

It is funny that our best flier is the one that explodes the best when it dies

Yes you can. Somewhere in this thread there is a short battle report, where a Tau army suffered more damage from two exploding planes than 3000 points of tau did through shooting.

@Kap'n Krump:
In general I have found either bomb to be useless against anything but infantry. Only infantry has enough models to actually get all 10 dice, and the 3 dice for vehicles are a trap. The next best thing would be bikes, but since all bikes in the game have at least two wounds, you usually would be dropping a bomb to kill a biker or two. Also, bikes aren't common at all since most are overcosted.

Best targets for them are single wound models with good saves, so marines, aspect warriors and the like.

Wazbombs are impressively bad. I ran some with tellyport megablastas which may be one of if not the worst gun per point in our arsenal. I was even firing them at paladins, which might be their best targets considering their "remove model if they still have wounds left on a good roll" mechanic. Missed almost all shots, smasha gun is really bad even with the re-roll, and the whole thing is very expensive.

Kff for it just makes it cost more and a kff mek on a bike already has enough mobility to be where you want your kff to be. The restrictive movement rules of flyers also may make it awkward to get the bubble where you want it, even though the bubble is very large due to the base size.

Dakka > Burna > > Blitza > > > > > > > Wazbom

speaking of the burna bomma, what does everyone think of skorcha missiles? With CA changes to the cost of a twin big shoota, a burna bomma with skorcha missiles is 152 points, while the dakkajet is 148. Burna Bomma with missiles kills 2.11 marines out of cover and 1.55 in cover, while dakkajet kills 3 marines out of cover and 2 in cover. So for only 4 more points, against marines in cover (more valuable targets typically, like devastators or tacs on an objective that you really want them off of) you are getting a similar amount of killing power to the dakkajet, plus the two bombs for anti-infantry and suicide potential. The skorcha missiles are shorter ranged but it's fast enough to generally not care about that. The missiles are more random so there's some spike/whiff potential, but i think for only 4 points more the burna bomma doesn't lose out on that much firepower against your preferred targets (expensive/tactically important marines in cover) while giving a lot of added utility in terms of the bombs and potential enemy backfield explosions.

What do you guys think?

...What if you make a fient and spam burna bombers with the rest of your army being characters. It's gona be a skew list but it's gona be a hell lot of fun. You fly towards the enemy, bomb the hell out of them and than he has nothing else to shoot other than planes that start falling en masse dealing even more mortal wounds to everything around them...including other planes that start falling even more.

It's gona be hilarious - especially vs parking lots. Hard countered with deepstrikes and reeeeally needs 1-st turn but what did you expect from kamikaze boyz.

ManTube wrote:


speaking of the burna bomma, what does everyone think of skorcha missiles?

Skorcha missiles is a 20 point heavy bolter with a BS 5+, right? I would rather take the burna at 134 points.

 koooaei wrote:
...What if you make a fient and spam burna bombers with the rest of your army being characters. It's gona be a skew list but it's gona be a hell lot of fun. You fly towards the enemy, bomb the hell out of them and than he has nothing else to shoot other than planes that start falling en masse dealing even more mortal wounds to everything around them...including other planes that start falling even more.

It's gona be hilarious - especially vs parking lots. Hard countered with deepstrikes and reeeeally needs 1-st turn but what did you expect from kamikaze boyz.

I mean, for 2000 points you can get 120 boyz, a kff mek on a bike, a warboss, a weirdboy, 5-6 KMK mek guns and 5 burna bommas with skorcha missiles and still have points left for some kommandos to pop up on an objective. You could trim out things like PKs on the nobs, the kommandos, and the mek's bike to get things up to 150 boyz and now you're an under-strength green tide with a trick up its sleeve. I'd hold the bommas in reserve because gork help you if you go second and dedicated anti-tank shoots down all your bommas while they are still deployed near your tide. This way you're less of a one-trick pony (still having enough boyz to be a threat and the KMKs to deal with armor). Still probably worse than your standard 180-200 boy green tide with characters, but we already know that's the best build in the index. Coming out of reserve with huge flyer movement, i doubt it would be difficult to get all five dropping bombs, so there's ~25 single-wound infantry dead right there- the shooting from the bommas can probably kill another ten marines or guardsmen themselves. Then the enemy has to choose: Do I let these things get another bombing run on me, or do i shoot them down right over all my own troops and start taking three mortal wounds on every unit ever (perhaps multiple times over)? Talk about a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't scenario!

It could make a great psychological weapon too- take great care to gleefully describe to your opponent the firey carnage that will rain down upon him should he dare destroy your bommas, and make sure to inform him that you intend to save plenty of command points to re-roll any failed 'explodes!' results... they might be scared enough that they avoid shooting at them altogether, so that even after your bombs drop you have five planes that can just fly around and shoot whatever they want and generally be annoying. It's weird enough that I doubt most players will expect it or make a very rational decision about how to address it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pismakron wrote:

ManTube wrote:


speaking of the burna bomma, what does everyone think of skorcha missiles?

Skorcha missiles is a 20 point heavy bolter with a BS 5+, right? I would rather take the burna at 134 points.

You're probably right, I was just considering that the damage output (particularly against a favored target like devs in cover) is similar enough to the dakkajet when you compare the overall price (and include the utility of the bombs+explosions) that it was worth the comparison. For a lone bomma, almost certainly not worth it as it's unlikely to survive after two drops and thus added shooting potential is negligible, but if I were to run some gambit like the above I'd consider it, seeing as my opponent may actively avoid shooting them down- then it might be worth it to pay for sub-dakkajet shooting so they have some worth outside of their two bombing runs.

I was thinking about taking it 'to the max'. So, have absolutely nothing other than burnas, characters and kommandoes to allow you counter-react to deepstrikes and enemy rushing towards you.

So...maybe even sag meks will be playable in this scenario? Badrukk seems to be a must there. Snikrot also. So that you would be able to infiltrate somewhere and disallow shooting at your other stuff. Runtherds would be great to eat up shooting. Don't know if warboss would be needed at all there.

ManTube wrote:
I'd hold the bommas in reserve because gork help you if you go second and dedicated anti-tank shoots down all your bommas while they are still deployed near your tide.

In 8th, you cannot hold a unit in reserve unless is has a rule that says so or the mission allows it (usually only narrative missions do).

Also note that any anti-tank shooting bommers is not shooting KMK, and 3 mortal wounds on a mob of boyz really isn't something terrible. Just take care to not have too many valuable targets nearby. I usually never had trouble deploying them completely out of harms way, with 50" movement they can be anywhere on the board turn 1, even if you deployed them in the very back of your deployment zone.

You're probably right, I was just considering that the damage output (particularly against a favored target like devs in cover) is similar enough to the dakkajet when you compare the overall price (and include the utility of the bombs+explosions) that it was worth the comparison. For a lone bomma, almost certainly not worth it as it's unlikely to survive after two drops and thus added shooting potential is negligible, but if I were to run some gambit like the above I'd consider it, seeing as my opponent may actively avoid shooting them down- then it might be worth it to pay for sub-dakkajet shooting so they have some worth outside of their two bombing runs.

I had skorchas missiles in two games, never were worth their points. You could just put four big shootas on boyz mob that shoot them while advancing, and they would deal more damage than skorcha missiles.

regarding skorcha missiles, in my experience, basically any BS5+ weapon with random shots is pure garbage. Kilkannons, wazbomb KMK, deffkannons, shokk attack guns, etc.

If skorcha missiles were D6 auto hits (as they're flame weapons), they'd be ok. But D6 shots with BS5 is really, really bad.

In fact, about the only random shot weapon that I find useful in the codex are KMK mek gunz.

pismakron wrote:
You can use a command point to reroll the blow up die on the burna bomma right?

It is funny that our best flier is the one that explodes the best when it dies

AdMek have a strategem that allows them to guarantee a vehicle explosion, I'm hoping that orks get something similar? Kamikaze vehicles seems like a great ork strat to me.

I would count on an auto-explode stratagem, at least for flyers. There was an old apoc formation that let you do that, more or less, called flying 'eadbutt.

New schedule leaks place Ork codex release in June, alongside a 'Campaign Book' and a 'Campaign Box' - I'm sad to hear that Orks are last, but the campaign set is hopefully the rumored Armageddon campaign.

If true, it means we might be getting the (yet again) rumored new Ghazzy and Nob models around june

It might not of gone to the printers yet then. Has it been mentioned in the thread that as a community we could get a document together to send to GW our feedback on what needs changing from the index might be a worth it since GW do 'listen' now and there has to be some good stuff they can use after 139 pages on dakka.

Could maybe start a new thread and move what i'm about to say to it? Perhaps make a mega poll of idea put it to the vote and send the top 10 to GW.

For shame i'v only played my second game with my orks in 8th last night and have some thoughts:

Warboss - 4 attacks is shocking and they need some kinda inv save option.

Pain boyz - Not sure they are worth it with the 6+ sorely missed the 5+ from 7th. I guess they are only 40pts but 40pts goes a long way for orks.

Stormboyz - Adv an charge for mortal wounds does not sit well with the warboss waaagghh rule. They should prob have something like 2d6 pick the highest or always go 5-6"

Truks - Shocked how much they cost for the fact they move 12", i'd suggest they go up to 14" and have some cool boost rule (maybe 2d6 advance but if you roll a double d3 mortal wounds on the unit inside as they fall off!).

Grots - Sadly not performing like my 7th ed ones (not that they were great) reducing them to 2pts probably more balanced

General - There needs to be some kinda re-roll dice mechanism in the army be it strat/special rule etc
- Rokkits are overpriced

 Eonfuzz wrote:
New schedule leaks place Ork codex release in June, alongside a 'Campaign Book' and a 'Campaign Box' - I'm sad to hear that Orks are last, but the campaign set is hopefully the rumored Armageddon campaign

There was a rumor about a Space Wolves vs Orks box, which would then match the rumor about Leman Russ being the next primarch. Space Puppies are also heavily invested in Armageddon, so using it as a setting seems plausible.

I just bought the daemon codex and quality of rules (flavor, clarity, usefulness) is increasing massively from codex to codex - if you ignore the planet-sized ball they dropped on deep striking primarchs.
If the ork codex follows in the steps of BA, Tyranids and Daemons, we might just get to play with more than four units different this time around.

If true, it means we're getting a new Ghazzy and Nob models around june

Please quote where new nob models were rumored. Considering that they have been part of most boxes in the past and that they are one of the best kits we have, I can't see them being redone anytime soon.
Ghaz has been rumored/guessed by multiple people, and considering how our star player is an old, faulty failcast model, redoing him would sounds like good thing to do.

Let's not start any false rumors in this thread again. Last codex some wild speculations by me somehow landed as part of a rumor on nafka - including my spelling errors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Latro_ wrote:
It might not of gone to the printers yet then. Has it been mentioned in the thread that as a community we could get a document together to send to GW our feedback on what needs changing from the index might be a worth it since GW do 'listen' now and there has to be some good stuff they can use after 139 pages on dakka.

I doubt that this community will reach any kind consensus we could send to GW.

If you want to tell them how you feel about orks, just write them a mail. You also don't have to provide them with solutions, just telling them what is wrong in your opinion will help - if they read it.

 Jidmah wrote:
There was a rumor about a Space Wolves vs Orks box, which would then match the rumor about Leman Russ being the next primarch. Space Puppies are also heavily invested in Armageddon, so using it as a setting seems plausible.

I just bought the daemon codex and quality of rules (flavor, clarity, usefulness) is increasing massively from codex to codex - if you ignore the planet-sized ball they dropped on deep striking primarchs.
If the ork codex follows in the steps of BA, Tyranids and Daemons, we might just get to play with more than four units different this time around.

I agree with this almost entirely. I certainly think BA, Nids and Daemons offered a decent increase in viable options from Index to codex. I also agree that if our codex followed in the same suit we would be well served and I'd be ecstatic. There are definite winners and losers from the codexes, in particular Daemons in which I think Nurgle did best and have the most options, Khorne and Tzeentch are probably joint second and Slaanesh is definitely last. Nothing too surprising there though. Primarchs can't use the daemon deep strike stratagem, it will be FAQ'd in a weeks time and FLG have all but confirmed this. I don't even see the argument for it to be honest, it makes sense that you can only use stratagems from a codex on the stuff in that book.

Please quote where new nob models were rumored. Considering that they have been part of most boxes in the past and that they are one of the best kits we have, I can't see them being redone anytime soon.
Ghaz has been rumored/guessed by multiple people, and considering how our star player is an old, faulty failcast model, redoing him would sounds like good thing to do.

Let's not start any false rumors in this thread again. Last codex some wild speculations by me somehow landed as part of a rumor on nafka - including my spelling errors.

Lol firstly - as if you started a rumour on Nafka. Jokes. Secondly - I don't think we'll see new Nob models, Ghazzy is a much safer bet but there's no concrete information.

We can assume that we'll be getting new Buggies I think. That rumour engine pic has to be a Buggy right? Apart from that it's anyone's guess.

I doubt that this community will reach any kind consensus we could send to GW.

If you want to tell them how you feel about orks, just write them a mail. You also don't have to provide them with solutions, just telling them what is wrong in your opinion will help - if they read it.

I disagree on this, I think we can all agree on certain things about the Ork faction, as it stands now. I don't think a mass coordinated feedback event would be a bad idea, in theory.

 Jidmah wrote:

If true, it means we're getting a new Ghazzy and Nob models around june

Please quote where new nob models were rumored. Considering that they have been part of most boxes in the past and that they are one of the best kits we have, I can't see them being redone anytime soon.
Ghaz has been rumored/guessed by multiple people, and considering how our star player is an old, faulty failcast model, redoing him would sounds like good thing to do.

Let's not start any false rumors in this thread again. Last codex some wild speculations by me somehow landed as part of a rumor on nafka - including my spelling errors.

Good call, I've edited my post to clarify the Ghaz and Nob models are just rumors.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

We can assume that we'll be getting new Buggies I think. That rumour engine pic has to be a Buggy right? Apart from that it's anyone's guess.
I doubt that this community will reach any kind consensus we could send to GW.

Custodes had rumour engine going for a month or two before their codex; I doubt (even though I wish) that we're getting teases for june.

Orks need a sniper!
I feel like Eadbanger could get 48" and target Character special rule, "slain" might be too good, just D6 mortal wounds after a 2+ wound roll? I like the idea of it being stopped by enemy psyker's, like "NO, don't pop my leaders head!"