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Lately I've turned traitor and have bought some CSM kits.
All I have is a sorcerer, two 10 man troop squads of marines and a bike

I was wondering what I should get next. I play mostly for fun against Tau, Orks and SM

I'm looking into rhinos and some more bikes to make a legal squad and I was wondering what HS and elite I should get?

I like tanks

Chaos Bikes are a bit too expensive points wise in most cases, best use is a squad of 3 to either deliver Daemons (with Icon of Chaos glory and/or A.C) and/or tank hunting with 2 Melta guns. If your not taking lesser (or greater) Daemons, then to be honest there are better choices.

Firstly, you need Rhinos for your troops as you already know. CSM squads are good enough, although Plagues and Bezerkers tend to do things slightly better. But if you equip them right (either keep them cheap with double melta or flamer, or give them some extra CC punch with an A.C with a Power fist) they can do pretty well.

You could go for a Marine spam/Rhino rush style army, using Chosen and Havocs with Melta or Plasma or Flamers in rhinos. Get up close to deliver a decent amount of close range fire power.

You could also keep it long range, if you like tanks then you have Predators or Vindiactors. Vindicators work best with Lash which you can give your sorcerer, will work especially well against Ork hordes but will also do well at taking down Tau battlesuits or anything Space Marine. Predators are quite good, often overlooked for Obliterators, but if you like tanks you don't need to take Oblits.

Fast attack, is something you can easily ignore with Chaos. Bikes and Raptors are ok, but to be honest in most cases a bit too expensive but can be fun to use.

Also you should consider getting a Daemon Prince. a DP and Sorc combo or 2 DP are good HQ choice.

To OP, IMO the CSM codex has the following major strengths:
1) excellent fearless troops - zerkers (furious charge), plaguers (FNP)
2) cheap transports - rhinos with dozer blades and two firing ports
3) heavy support - autolas predators, obliterators
4) cheap plentiful meltas
5) every troop has a pistol (except TS) - extra CC attack and a shot before assaulting! I love this!

If you maximize the above, you will do pretty well, although the codex is old and the point costs are generally too high.

Some people like lash princes in combo with vindicators/obliterators, others give combi-meltas on terminators and deep-strike them without error using icons. Others pack zerkers in land raiders and just have fun. Others swear by defilers.

I like lash sorcerers, because they are cheap for what they do, they are ICs and can thus hide in troop squads. I usually attach them to zerkers, because whatever they lash will be pulled closer to my zerkers to fall upon like the Wrath of Khorne incarnate. I also like to run a phalanx of dreads with TL bolters, because if they go crazy, they will not hurt each other, but are otherwise cheap and nasty with 2x DCCW. I also like plaguers with meltas in rhinos, because they are tough as nails and fearless.

On the weaker side of the codex, raptors are unimpressive compared to other options. LRs are not worth it without POTMS. Bikes are expensive point wise and model wise. I am not into daemons although they can assault out of deep strike, which sounds really cool. CSMs are relatively cheap but need an icon, and even then, I am afraid they can get swept. Some people swear by noise marines for their versatility, but I don't like their fluff and they look expensive. I like the fluff and the idea of thousand sons, but they are very expensive and have to take a sorcerer who is expensive and has awkward powers.

Overall, CSM is a great army with lots of options, so my suggestion is try everything by proxying until you figure out what you like to build.

Yeah, I only play for fun at the moment

I like the model for the predator ( so going with that )
Would a LR with a squad of Berserkers be an alright idea?
Love the DP model so going to look into getting that aswell
Might eventually get some plague marines, not sure about fine cast models though

I was going to use my bikes to zip up the board and keep in cover and as close to my opponents as possible and I was going to try and DS a big 10 man terminator squad; what's dakka's oppinion on this?

If I go for something other than that terminator squad what elite choice should I be looking at?
I like the idea of Dreads for lulz but I've heard they go crazy, alot!

Btw, I've heard good things about lash sorc and lash princes but I was kinda hoping for a strong nurgle theme as I really like the background for grandfather nurgle

Thanks for all the advice so far, please keep it coming

You don't have to break the bank to use the rules.

I have been building a huge army of Iron Warriors ( 60+ models and counting) - they look like standard CSM but with the IW heraldry. I can run them as CSMs or I can declare them to have pervasive bionics (very fluffy) which would justify using the plaguer template in the codex (at the appropriate point cost). So, no fine cast for me, thanks (expensive and hard to work with).

There are guys that run 3x zerkers in land raiders and have lots of fun with it. I cannot do it yet, because I have only 2 LRs. I hear it is a lot of fun, but not very efficient. The real problem is the proliferation of DE players, against whom AV14 becomes AV12. The lance rule is really annoying.

rodgers37 wrote:Chaos Bikes are a bit too expensive points wise in most cases

I agree, don't throw good money after bad.

The next thing you should probably do is get more troops stuff. Either a LOT more CSM, or a few more squads that are dedicated to a certain god (like berzerkers), then you should either get some rhinos for them, or even more troops to do a power armor horde. As others have mentioned, CSM have unarguably the best troops choices in the game. Keep focusing on them.

After that, as mentioned, there are some fantastic HQ options, and a chaos lord on a bike isn't one of them.

Once you get at least 4 units that deal with troops (infantry or rhinos), and you've got sorted exactly what the HQ is going to be, only then should you start looking at elites (which is where the next best chaos units are), or one of a few of the decent other options (none of which are in the FA slot).

The thing about CSM is that they are mostly marines without the rules that make them good. For the same cost.

So what do you do to make them worth running? Run things that only CSM can.

Rhinos with weapons (combi melta/plasma havoc launchers) Put guys in them with 4 special weapons (havocs and chosen can do this, for 6 squads of quad damage)

Troops? They suck or are too expensive (though the expensive options are really good, just not worth paying for a bunch). Take the ones that you like the most and don't overspend. Keep in mind you need to score with these guys, so still bring enough, and if possible to make them at least contribute. They are pretty durable if you have enough support for them.

Alternatively if you don't care about just making yet another light mech spam list... Go big. Bring dual princes (warptime, lash isn't all that anymore) Bring triple dreads (read the rules on dreads and how crazy works, you can manage their insanity). Bring triple defilers. One is a joke, 2 are dangerous, 3 very hard to deal with and can do serious damage. Then bring a greater daemon and a means to summon him. 9 big things is nasty. 6 of them being av 12 walkers with real cc ability, and 3 being CC MCs (one comes in from reserve, the others can fly).

Don't underestimate lesser daemons either. Yes their statline sucks and they can no longer win games on their own... but they are one of few units that is dangerous in assault from deepstrike. Daemon bomb lists definitely aren't serious ones, but they can surprise even vets not expecting them.

notabot187 wrote:The thing about CSM is that they are mostly marines without the rules that make them good. For the same cost.

Except they're twice as good in close combat by default, and they can take icons.

Both CSM and tac squads have the same statline, and both come with power armor and bolters, and can take basically the same special and heavy weapons options, but if you ask a light-side marine player about close combat, they'll just laugh at you, while the CSM player will nod appreciatively.

I mean, you can take troops choices that come with a 3+/5++ (terminators at less than 2/3ds the cost), or you can give them 4 attacks on the charge, or always strike first in close combat, or be wounded only on 6's by regular guardsmen. Plus, all icons are teleport homers to boot. And all this is before you start throwing on weapons upgrades.

Really, the only reason why regular CSM squads aren't the best troops choice is because they have to compete against even BETTER troops choices in their own codex.

Ailaros wrote:

notabot187 wrote:The thing about CSM is that they are mostly marines without the rules that make them good. For the same cost.

Except they're twice as good in close combat by default, and they can take icons.
Really, the only reason why regular CSM squads aren't the best troops choice is because they have to compete against even BETTER troops choices in their own codex.

QFT. I am not nearly as afraid of being assaulted as a vanilla loyalist. I can also surprise less experienced players by suddenly charging them myself when they expect me to double-tap and receive the assault. Laugh evilly, whoop out those bolt pistols, unload them with 2 meltas, then charge in with 3 attacks/model! That works out to 4 attacks per model. All the loyalists can do is 2 attacks. Yes, we are twice as good in close combat. Those pistols make all the difference. Then add icons for extra fun.

Or, pay a bit more and get plaguers with T4(5), FNP, and fearless, as a troop choice! That is awesome!

Ailaros wrote:

notabot187 wrote:The thing about CSM is that they are mostly marines without the rules that make them good. For the same cost.

Except they're twice as good in close combat by default, and they can take icons.

Both CSM and tac squads have the same statline, and both come with power armor and bolters, and can take basically the same special and heavy weapons options, but if you ask a light-side marine player about close combat, they'll just laugh at you, while the CSM player will nod appreciatively.

I mean, you can take troops choices that come with a 3+/5++ (terminators at less than 2/3ds the cost), or you can give them 4 attacks on the charge, or always strike first in close combat, or be wounded only on 6's by regular guardsmen. Plus, all icons are teleport homers to boot. And all this is before you start throwing on weapons upgrades.

Really, the only reason why regular CSM squads aren't the best troops choice is because they have to compete against even BETTER troops choices in their own codex.

How are they 2x good in cc? I only see the bp/cc weapon bolter combo. You know, the one that SWs get, BA don't need, and tactical SMs could care less about. 2 times the attacks when you have the charge isn't a fair gauge. Vanilla CSM aren't by any means "good" in CC. They don't have fearless, have to pay for a sarge to get better LD, don't have ATSKNF, don't have any default special weapons (like storm bolters or force weapons), pay out the nose for sarges with weapons. Icons are rather pricey. Mark of khorne is somewhat expensive. Once you finish gearing the squad for CC they are very close in cost to zerkers, and have similar problems that zerkers have, but without the benefits. 3+5++ isn't a termie, its a dumb buy. Who really pays for a 5+ invul on troop dorks that suck in CC and are tacticals at shooting? I thought the mark of slaanesh was +1 I not ASF (which is a fantasy rule) I5 is nice, but not the end all when more than a few armies go faster with better weapons. +1T is nice, but is being wounded on 6s by flashlights worth the investment?

Icons are useful as beacons when you need to teleport things in, but isn't daemon bomb mostly dead? Paying for support for termicide makes that strategy lose most of its efficiency (and purpose, if your guys are that close, why not just melta with them instead of throwing away your valuable elite). Icons are marginal that are useful in niche strategies.

The better troop choice are actually pretty decent, except they cost way too much for their improvements. Noise marines have cool weapons, but not for the cost. Thousand suns are cool but not only do they pay the stupid AP3 tax (every unit with ap3 costs way too much), they have to pay for a sorcerer and most likely an expensive power. Slow and purposeful isn't as big a deal with the sandboxes, but the price is too high (their invul is not to be forgotten, but it just means people won't waste plasma on them). Zerkers are scary in CC, but how are you getting them there? In rhinos that don't have assault ramps or the Chaos nerfraider? Neither one is appealing, and zerkers pay too much for what is essentially regular attacks (the sarge is one of the few PF sarges you can make an argument for, even then you pay out the nose for it). Plague marines are durable and get good shooting options. I actually like these guys, but man they have so much on them defensively they have a justifiably high cost without any real offensive power.

You mention that CSM have unarguably the best troops in the game... Well I have a reasonable argument that they aren't. GKs have guys for 20 pts that have stormbolters, free sarges, force weapons, upgrades for both weapons, psycannons and incinerators, sarge weapons that are cheap, and a CC power that boosts their Strength to 5. They also can take transports that have boosted ammo (s7 assault cannons, S6 heavy bolters). They have warp quake, ATSKNF, combat squads, and good grenades. Grey knights can also take purifiers as troops relatively easily, and everybody should know by now that purifiers are pretty good high value models. SW grey hunters 2cc and bolter, can counter attack, can attach custom "sarges" in the form of wolf guard, and get good access to special weaons and special gear. BA assault squads have decent armory access, can benefit from FNP halos, and get cheap fast transports with good weapons on them. They don't have bolters, but honestly who cares?

I do really like chaos more than I probably should, but I'm not going to follow some 4th ed wisdom and think that CSM still have the best troops. They have decent enough troops that suffer from the same problems the rest of the book has: Point for point it is an inefficient army, and they have the problems of being a nail in the world of hammers. Everybody is geared up for marine killing, so unlike tau and eldar (other books that pay too much for mediocre units) they don't have anything special enough about their durability or play style to keep them alive.

GK are broken thrice over. I do not consider them for any comparison purposes.

CSM are twice better than a normal marine because of the pistol. On a charge, CSM gets a pistol shot and 3 attacks, which is roughly the same as 4 normal attacks, because the pistol and the CSM are both S4. On a charge, a normal marine gets 2 attacks. If not charging, CSM gets 2 attacks and the normal marine just 1. So under same conditions, CSM is always twice better in CC, as measured by number of attacks.

notabot187 wrote: GKs

Really? You're going to spend lengthy paragraphs complaining about how expensive CSM stuff is, and then you're going to bring grey knights into this? Strike squads are good, but once you give them ANY upgrades they become as expensive as chaos terminators.

notabot187 wrote:SW grey hunters 2cc and bolter, can counter attack, can attach custom "sarges" in the form of wolf guard, and get good access to special weaons and special gear. BA assault squads have decent armory access, can benefit from FNP halos, and get cheap fast transports with good weapons on them.

So, what's good about SW and BA troops choices is that they have good elites and HQ choices?

notabot187 wrote:I do really like chaos more than I probably should, but I'm not going to follow some 4th ed wisdom and think that CSM still have the best troops. They have decent enough troops that suffer from the same problems the rest of the book has...

So, your problem with CSM troops is that you don't like the codex?

So, to the original poster, if you want to play GK, SW, or BA, feel free to change your codex. If you want to know what to get next for the army you actually want to play, get more troops.

Typhon the Storm Giant wrote:

Btw, I've heard good things about lash sorc and lash princes but I was kinda hoping for a strong nurgle theme as I really like the background for grandfather nurgle

What I would suggest, and its what I have done, is start with your Nurgle theme. I have been (well started, but since i'm far too lazy when it comes to modelling/painting) converting tanks and started on some troops, but after a few games of just stuff Nurgle and tanks, it wasn't really working, so I started adding some other bits. Have since used Abaddon, Zerkers, Lash Prince and Obliterators (although not much with these, as I don't like proxying too often.). Pure Nurgle can win, but its tougher in my view.

Have the options to run a pure Nurgle army, but maybe thats something to do in the future as its not going to be the easiest thing to start off with.

Lash is still pretty good, a lot of people think its dead, and to an extent they are right. There is a lot of psychic defence out there, making Lash harder to cast, and then there is also a lot of mech out there giving less units to lash until you blow the transports up. Sorcerers seem to be very popular, i'm yet to use them (since re-starting chaos) as i'm using a lash Prince for the extra punch the DP gives.


As for this troops debate. Of course Chaos aren't going to be the best, no old edition codex has the best anything. But the diversity all the units offer is pretty useful, and in using what you've got they are pretty strong compared to some of the elite, fast and heavy choices. I would say troops is Chaos' strong point. You have an all round (potentially) unit in CSM squads, they can get expensive but they are good enough in combat and you can either send them tank hunting or infantry killing. Zerkers are pretty nasty in assault, again maybe a bit expensive, but depending on the situation they can be very useful. I think having one squad is a good idea in most lists as 4 I5, S5, WS5 attacks on the charge is going to kill quite a lot. Plagues are really tough, I personally have gone off them a bit, but I think i'm using them wrong. 1K sons are great, if you only play against MEQ spam, but very very expensive even then. Noise Marines, I think are very useful. Either going forward and taking advantage of the I5, or sitting back and shooting things to death. Its all a bit expensive really, but thats just the chaos codex.

So, collectively suggested is more troops
I'm getting some berzerkers and plague marines

It was suggested earlier that it might be possible to go for a horde-style list with lots of big troops choices

Ailaros wrote:

The next thing you should probably do is get more troops stuff. Either a LOT more CSM, or a few more squads that are dedicated to a certain god (like berzerkers), then you should either get some rhinos for them, or even more troops to do a power armor horde.

I was wondering how viable this would be?

Ailaros wrote:

So, to the original poster, if you want to play GK, SW, or BA, feel free to change your codex. If you want to know what to get next for the army you actually want to play, get more troops.

P.s.
I want to play CSM not any of their loyalist nemesi so I'll get more troops not a different codex thank you

Plague marines + Khorne berzerkers = Best Chaos Troop Choices from what I have seen. I have not played CSM, but my experience on the otherside of the table bears out my statement above. Plague marines hold objectives till the cows come home. 'zerkers annihilate most things, and cause the others pause at the very least.

It isn't that much time ago that I started my CSM army. My two cents to your situation:

- A demon prince is the best HQ choice, reasonably priced (both pointwise and in cash), fun to play and goes well with any army you should focus on in the future
- Obliterators: You will need some high STR shooting and these guys give it, with great flexibility in any army. Downside: the models are expensive if you do not buy them used.
- Plague Marines: Work wonders, even or especially in low numbers. In the first small point games I'd use 5 PM in a Rhino. Worked great, every single time.
- Rhinos: If you're not choosing a footslogging army you will need those with current mech game. Never regretted buying a few.
- Terminators: I love Terminators, but have to admit that they underperformed in most games. Exception: close combat Terminators with claws out of a Land Raider. Maybe along with Abaddon. A huge point sink, but worked. However, I can't really recommend this for a new army, only if you really like them.
- Vindicator: This was my first vehicle and worked in many a game for me. Favourite newbie combo: lash of submission and then big template that cuddly blob of orcs or tyranids.
- Khorne Berzerkers: don't buy them if you are not gonna buy Rhinos. I had them from the battleforce and tried to use them on foot. They were cannon fodder that way.
- Character models: I bought them all since I wanted to have them in metal before they only come as Finecast. I can't really recommend any of them for a new army. The daemon prince or a sorcerer will work way better for the points.

Have fun with your army

So if I get some of these:

HQ combo: Sorcerer and DP
Elite : Terminator?
Troops : LOADS of CSM with a team of 'zerkers and maybe a team or two of plaugeurs for objectives
Fast Attack : Two biker squads
heavy : two preds

The bikes I might proxy at first but I'd like to try and DS the termies ontop of them
Would this be very effective in fun games or just crazy?

Thanks for the help

The bikes I might proxy at first but I'd like to try and DS the termies ontop of them
Would this be very effective in fun games or just crazy?

In fun games yes I would do it, just because these days you are starting to see bikes used less and less in any army (except orks). The deepstriking termies would be a ploy that anybody could see coming and would try to stop right off the bat. The whole point of deepstriking would be to get real close to the enemy, however after you turboboost and are waiting for those termies, you have the enemy real close to your guys making them prime target for any assaults, massed rapid fire, or the enemy just moves away negating the effectiveness of the termies about to show up.

I will say tho that every now and then you find a player who misses all that, and when your termie drop squad shows up and wreaks havoc it is awesome to behold
(like 1 in every 50 games it works out lol...)

Khorne Berzerkers and Rhinos would be a good addition.

This will help you a lot against orks.

Okay, going for a horde force for these Chaos Space Marines...

I have my Chaos Terminator Sorcerer , and two ten man squads which will double in size once I get a third squad, and there is a squad of five bikers w/ MoK and powerfist on champ

For next steps I was wondering about getting some terminator squads and some havocs...
Thoughts and Opinion... please be brutal