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Ok, firstly this doesn't apply to SM or guard, for a fairly obvious reason. They auto take upgrade characters.
However, others of us are stuck with the question of whether or not to spend 10pts or so on one. Generally the pros are that you get an extra attack, higher Ld and can take special weaponry. The cons are that it costs around the same as just adding a guy that would give and extra attack anyway, counts as a spare wound, and the special weaponry has to be paid for anyway.

Generally, I'd say that this only leads to one reason I'd ever take them: special weapons for an assault unit, for example an agoniser on a hekatrix makes her more killy than the rest of the squad, for only 30pts upgrade.
Otherwise, it's 10pts wasted. And I never have 10pts spare.

What about you? Worth it or not? Any posts welcome (flames will be sent straight to Lucifer as per our agreement).

Well your example was what I was planning on listing. Hekatrix with an agonizer = awesome. More attacks, easier to wound and a PW, helps deal with MEQs bogging down her squad.

I also play CSM that require buying Sgts/Champs. I've found I like the Skull Champ for Zerkers because a PF is a must have at times to prevent the boys from getting bogged by a dread or MC. The other is a Noise champion, however i don't always use this upgrade because noise marines are better suited at sitting in good covering and opening up with heavy 3 sonic weapons. The champion is only really needed in this squad if I think they might have to lock up with infilitrators/DS.

If points are your problem then just do the math on how well the upgraded character will do compared to what you would take instead. For example: (did these calculations vs MEQs and not on the charge...also did them at 3am so if they are off my apologies)

Skull Champ: 61 (with powerfist, so I1) 3 Attacks// 2.01 Hits// 1.67 Wounds (no armour saves)

Skull Champ: 51 (with PW, I4) 4 Attacks// 2.68 Hits// 1.34 Wounds (no armour saves)

3 Zerkers: 63 (ccw+pistol, I4) 9 Attacks// 6.03 Hits// 3.02 Wounds// 1 Unsaved Wound (after taking 3+ armour saves)

So assuming I did my math correctly you can see how the investment into the PF or PW champion will average more kills against a typicaly MEQ squad. The drawback is less models to distribute received wounds amongst. From my experience play as many matches as possible with different builds and see what works best for you. Some of the guys at my local store won't usually bother with upgrades because they want to maximize attacks/bodies.

For me it depends on the unit and if I have points to spare or not.

I'll always take a Howling Banshee exarch with executioner and counter-attack because they're one of my favourite units. If I just need a squad to cover an objective or something, I may just have a squad of 5 dire avengers with no exarch.

Lord Rogukiel wrote:For me it depends on the unit and if I have points to spare or not.

I'll always take a Howling Banshee exarch with executioner and counter-attack because they're one of my favourite units. If I just need a squad to cover an objective or something, I may just have a squad of 5 dire avengers with no exarch.

Yeah, but I'd argue that with eldar it's different: their powers generally improve the whole squad (e.g. bladestorm, or the hit and run thing for shining spears) so I'd almost always put them under "Worth it for the upgrade."

Anyway, thanks for the reply and the intresting thought.

Depends on the weapons upgrade. Hekatrixes get an agonizer -- and therefore I'll almost always take one. Sybarites, Solarites, Dracons, and Acothysts...get weapon upgrades entirely unrelated to the purpose of their squad...

...and they inevitably get left behind. It's just the nature of the game.

Ork nobz with PK's are worth it (stops the mob getting shredded by Dreads and adds punch against MEQ).

Nobz with PKs are near-mandatory in Ork Mobs.

I would like to ask : are Broodlords worth it in Tyranids?

I don't think so. He costs the same as *4* stealers. He has some cool tricks, but that's a pretty exorbitant cost.

They're certainly nice, but not *always* required. Hypnotizing Gaze (or whatever it's called) is great way to level a giant middle finger at that Power Fist/Power Klaw/IC in the unit you've just assaulted, or at the very least reduce the number of incoming attacks on a nice day.

However, CSM Champions (in Zerkers, at least) are always worth it. PF in Zerker squads prevent them from getting stuck with a Dreadnought for forever.

I've found leadership charachters to be hugely important. Commissars and Warlocks with Embolden come to mind. Both are purchased separately and count as an upgrade charachter.

Embolden and the Summery Execution + Stubborn can really help your squads do their job. Embolden keeps units like Guardian Defenders and Guardian Jetbikes from falling off of objectives after taking a casualty, and Comissars make blob squads work.

The trickster. 5 points and you can cause land raiders to shoot their friends

It depends on the unit, some are there just to give the unit the option, not that they'll ever be used (plague marine champs for example)

and others are damn well mandatory (Ork Pklaw nob)

p_gray99 wrote:Ok, firstly this doesn't apply to SM or guard, for a fairly obvious reason. They auto take upgrade characters.

I disagree. To me anyway the IG upgrades aren't always an auto take! i find that i prefer to get more bullets and tanks over
a character. and really Marbo is the only one i'd consider an auto take, if i have the points...

alarmingrick wrote:To me anyway the IG upgrades aren't always an auto take!

I think he was referring to the fact that all guard squads come with sergeants and all command squads come with officers. You can't not take an upgrade character, unlike other armies.

As for the OP, I say yes, always. With perhaps the exception of tau, armies that have upgrade models give you the option to vastly improve both the killing power and versatility of your army simultaneously. As was mentioned with the case of berzerkers, 10 berzerkers is good, but can't hurt heavier vehicles or, wraithlord, and can seriously struggle against TMCs and dreadnoughts. Basically, a skull champ with a fist makes it so that for the cost of just 2 models, you now have the ability to beat the face of anything on the board, rather than having to be careful to keep your berzerkers away from certain units.

Likewise for orks with klaws, etc. I think the reason why they're just mandatory in newer codecies was because they were already basically effectively mandatory in most armies before, so GW's just been making things more standardized.

Like everyone else said, it depends. With my Tau, unless I need a target lock on my broadsides, no Upgrade Characters.

However, if I'm running some Horrors in my Daemons, You better believe I'll take the changeling for 5 points.

Ailaros wrote:

alarmingrick wrote:To me anyway the IG upgrades aren't always an auto take!

I think he was referring to the fact that all guard squads come with sergeants and all command squads come with officers. You can't not take an upgrade character, unlike other armies.

As for the OP, I say yes, always. With perhaps the exception of tau, armies that have upgrade models give you the option to vastly improve both the killing power and versatility of your army simultaneously. As was mentioned with the case of berzerkers, 10 berzerkers is good, but can't hurt heavier vehicles or, wraithlord, and can seriously struggle against TMCs and dreadnoughts. Basically, a skull champ with a fist makes it so that for the cost of just 2 models, you now have the ability to beat the face of anything on the board, rather than having to be careful to keep your berzerkers away from certain units.

Likewise for orks with klaws, etc. I think the reason why they're just mandatory in newer codecies was because they were already basically effectively mandatory in most armies before, so GW's just been making things more standardized.

Oops!

Yeah I always use the changeling, every game lol.

For DE I dont think I use any upgrade people, I tend to spend the extra few pts making my vehicles a bit harder to kill.

IMO, if I used Flesh Hounds, I would prolly take Karanak as well. Dude has at least 20 points of great wargear.

I take the Changelling when facing Guard or low leadership armies, or if I have the spare 5pts. Altogether it really depends on what unit it is, Orks should always have a Nob Leader while assault units or low leadership troops need them when facing leadership crushing armies.

GreyChaos wrote:If points are your problem then just do the math on how well the upgraded character will do compared to what you would take instead. For example: (did these calculations vs MEQs and not on the charge...also did them at 3am so if they are off my apologies)

Skull Champ: 61 (with powerfist, so I1) 3 Attacks// 2.01 Hits// 1.67 Wounds (no armour saves)

Skull Champ: 51 (with PW, I4) 4 Attacks// 2.68 Hits// 1.34 Wounds (no armour saves)

3 Zerkers: 63 (ccw+pistol, I4) 9 Attacks// 6.03 Hits// 3.02 Wounds// 1 Unsaved Wound (after taking 3+ armour saves)

One thing you are forgetting is charging, with furious charge. The fist gains an extra attack, and becomes S9 (only helps against vehicles/wraithlord kind of things), but the PW gets +1 attack, +1S and +1I. So He swings BEFORE the MEQ's swing, and wounds them on a 3+, not 4+.
So 5 attacks// 3.33 hits// 2.22 wounds? My math is horrible, I did that off the top of my head, that is horribly rough (someone WILL come correct that.) But I'm pretty sure it will still turn out 2.xxxx wounds.

But yes, the skull champ is a example in CSM where it really is worth it to upgrade to a champ.

Playing wolves made me think long and hard about squad leaders (because they are elites.) Then I thought to myself-
-Vanilla tac squad, base cost- 90p
-Add a marine; 16p. Therefore, Marines cost 16p
-16x5=80
-tac squad comes with a sarge
-tac squad is 90, not 80
-therefore, sarge costs 10 points that you have no choice but to pay
-therefore, sarge is a upgraded tac marine, since you've paid for 5 tac marine bodies, but are paying 10p more
-therefore, sarge's total cost is 26 points base.

Which got me thinking about GH and WG-
-5 GH are 75p
- 10 GH 150p, vs 10 TM= 170
- GH rule ( )
- WG are 18ppm
- Sarge is 26ppm
- WG > Sarge
- WG, however, doesn't let you take 10 men in a rhino/drop pod, which means no free special weapon.

So it really is a complex choice. 10 tac marines vs 10 GH, cost wise, GH come out on top. And my Squad leader is cheaper (this is a prime example of why the SW codex really does trump vanilla. Come on, 26p sarge vs 18p? Did i mentioned WG power weapon is 10p, compared to vanilla 15p? WG fist is 20p, vs vanilla 25p. I don't think this was thought out too well by the writers ). And If I choose not to take a squad leader, I get a second special weapon for free. I don' think the two (GH/TM) are very comparable anymore.

These days, If the squad is toting a meltagun, I generally give them a WG w/ combimelta/fist (ha ha ha cheaper base cost that tac sarge, and for the cost of tac sarges' fist, I get a fist AND a combi). Plasma and flamer squads I tend to leave without WG, but sometimes I like flamer/combiflamer+fist or frost blade. If I think I'm going to get stuck in to more CC, then the WG goes flamers. But plasma tends to not get into CC unless they absolutely have to (10 guardsmen in cover on an objective in charge range. Won't wipe the squad with shooting, but will contest and beat them down in CC, and delivers me from the evils of that accursed tank named after my primarch )

As a small note- I would take them more for the extra LD, if I did not have ATSKNF. It is def. a strong consideration when upgrading a squad with a leader (any army (except maybe chaos where like 90% of the book is fearless, or daemons where EVERYTHING is fearless )

Jihallah wrote:One thing you are forgetting is charging, with furious charge. The fist gains an extra attack, and becomes S9

Which is so damn sassy. It's not just wraithlord it helps with. I mean, it auto-glances any vehicle with AV10 as their front armor. 4 guaranteed pieces of damage. Against heavier targets, you're still punching rear armor with the strength of a lascannon.

Puts a Falcon Punch to bloody shame.

Ailaros wrote:

Puts a Falcon Punch to bloody shame.

Good point, but I think a warboss pk takes the cake

Yeah, I suppose it's even moreso with orks. Berzerkers still get a S5/4 with S6 krak. Without the klaw, poor ork boyz are basically stuck whenever a high toughness MC or walker saunters over.

Even if not worth it I take the Upgrade character anyway, I mentally adjust the base price of the squad in my head. It just doesn't seem right to not have a squad leader. A concession to sentimentality, true, but not really that big a deal.

Well, ork boys are a power klaw delivery device. If you stick to that mentality, you're playing orks correctly.